School sucks

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Most classes are useless so far, seriously, what the hell am I gonna do with Finite Automata, and turing machines? I and most CSE majors wants to program softwares and learn good practice and become a prominent programmer. If I want to achieve this, then I will and have been learning by my self during my free time. Seriously, does anyone have a clue on how america's school system got so much corrupted?

I've worked with a few people who really didn't take those classes to heart, and they suffered for it. Learning to be a good programmer is one thing, and learning to be a good software writer is another. Being a good programmer doesn't mean you are good at writing software. Though I do agree, my school also didn't have specific focuses on programming. But, there was a lot of hands on stuff. And side oportunities, like the ACM programming competitions hosted by my school.

Some of the more hands on classes were:
Algorithms and Data Structures - Core to any programmer
Compilers - Wrote our own optimizing compilers. Very useful knowelege. Requires understanding of Finite Automata. Good when designing your own custom file formats or scripting languages.
Operating Systems - Wrote our own minimal operating systems. Good for understanding the workings of your computer. Required Finite Automata and Systems Programming (assembly).
Databases - Everyone uses them to store data.
Digital Electronics - Built an 8bit computer from scratch using an FPGA. Binary operations and logic operations.
Technical Writing - Learn to communicate
Web Programming - Interesting if you are going into that field.
Parallel Processing - Mandatory now that octo-core and centi-core computers are common place (ps3/gpus)
Digital Forensics - Learn how anyone could recover anything from your computer.

Some of the classes were less hands on, but really important to understanding how to make good choices in your algoritms.
Discrete Math - Learn your recursive code.
Linear Algebra - Used EVERYWHERE in game programming
Ethics - Know how you could be held accountable, and what are good choices to make if your product is ever released.
Networking - Understand how your data gets from point A to point B, and why it is so slow/fast/lossy.
Economics - More useful math and ideas.
Chemistry and Physics - Scientific method. Applicable in many fields of programming. More useful math.

And the core classes... cause you need to be well rounded. Thats why. I've worked with atleast one person who didn't take these to heart. It is really hard to work with someone who you can't communicate well with.
History - Those who don't learn from it, are doomed to repeat it.
English/Literature - Learn to communicate.
Sports - Get OUTSIDE.

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Not to mention all these whores and temptation to ruin one's life forever!

Better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all. You're only there for 4-5 years, make the most of it while it lasts. You won't have time for nearly as much of that social temptation once you start working.

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Original post by Concentrate Seriously, I am tired of my school, university of Connecticut. It does not teach me how to become a good programmer. It rather teaches me how to study by my own, and typical school stuff. Good professors are rare. Most classes are useless so far, seriously, what the hell am I gonna do with Finite Automata, and turing machines? I and most CSE majors wants to program softwares and learn good practice and become a prominent programmer. If I want to achieve this, then I will and have been learning by my self during my free time. Seriously, does anyone have a clue on how america's school system got so much corrupted? For example, do we( CSE majors) really need to take history, philosophy, anthropology, and all that other useless crap? Why am I wasting my money here, WTF? Not to mention all these whores and temptation to ruin one's life forever!

you paint some of the best parts of most universities very badly. College is very much about teaching yourself how to learn. It's one of the best skills to take away from it.

And the general education is also great. Gives you a good broad view of the world so you aren't limited in the way you view the world.

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Original post by Concentrate Most classes are useless so far, seriously, what the hell am I gonna do with Finite Automata, and turing machines?

May be they try to make you think different?
And say them thanks that you haven't military training course, like me in Soviet times.
BTW, I'm stil able to disassemble and assemble back Kalashnikov gun in 40 secomds.
But from the other hand and speaking honestly I don't regret about it[smile]
......

I dunno why,but they say that Mictosoft very like boys and girls passed this education program (though MSU has the Department of Programming and Computers too ).They say also that after passing all this math courses the programming itself seems very easy:

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Moscow State University,Department of Mathematics Algebra - 286 hours Analytical Geometry - 235 hours English language - 408 hours Calculus of variations and optimal control - 96 hours Introduction to mathematical logic - 96 hours Valid analysis - 112 hours Discrete Mathematics - 90 hours Differential geometry and topology - 108 hours Differential Equations - 220 hours History and methodology of mathematics - 80 hours Classical differential geometry - 112 hours Complex analysis - 204 hours Linear algebra and geometry - 200 hours Mathematical analysis - 820 hours Mathematical statistics - 108 hours Sociology - 68 hours The history of Russia -126 hours Population and territory protection in emergencies - 100 hours Probability theory - 112 hours The theory of random processes - 96 hours Number theory - 96 hours Differential equations with partial derivatives - 204 hours Physics - 204 hours Physical(sport) training - 476 hours [smile] Philosophy - 128 hours Functional analysis - 204 hours Numerical Methods - 208 hours Economic theory - 128 hours .. Special Seminar - 564 hours Workshop on the computer & programming - 676 hours

[Edited by - Krokhin on September 11, 2010 1:01:33 AM]

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Original post by Concentrate For example, do we (CSE majors) really need to take history, philosophy, anthropology, and all that other useless crap?

Computer science teaches you how to program computers. History, philosophy, anthropology and other courses are there to teach you about the users.

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Original post by way2lazy2care you paint some of the best parts of most universities very badly. College is very much about teaching yourself how to learn. It's one of the best skills to take away from it.

thats what high school is for.

if such a person couldnt do that before they went to univerity said person should never have been allowed into university. Since most people cant teach themselves (or are too lazy) we end up with exams which test memory instead of understanding.

Concentrate: You should have done a Software Engineering.

Computer Science is science and Finite Automata is a core part of that science. Not very suprising when you look at it like that.

You cant really teach programming anyway, it comes from experience. 10,000 hrs to become an expert, GET GOING!

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Original post by Concentrate Seriously, I am tired of my school, university of Connecticut. It does not teach me how to become a good programmer. It rather teaches me how to study by my own, and typical school stuff. Good professors are rare. Most classes are useless so far, seriously, what the hell am I gonna do with Finite Automata, and turing machines? I and most CSE majors wants to program softwares and learn good practice and become a prominent programmer. If I want to achieve this, then I will and have been learning by my self during my free time. Seriously, does anyone have a clue on how america's school system got so much corrupted? For example, do we( CSE majors) really need to take history, philosophy, anthropology, and all that other useless crap? Why am I wasting my money here, WTF? Not to mention all these whores and temptation to ruin one's life forever!

So basically, you want to be spoon-fed syntax and design patterns and then go on to become a glorious rockstar programmer? Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. If you want something more "practical" then find a vocational school. Not knowing the theory behind what you're doing means your skills will be more or less obsolete by the time the Next Great Thing (tm) comes along, but at least you'll get to write software faster.

When I saw the topic of this thread, I thought it was going to be a rant about someone's university turning into a purely vocational javaschool, with perhaps a few bits of XNA sprinkled over it for good measure. Instead, it's a rant about someone's school not being that - WTF indeed!

This sounds like regular complaints about school - not actually preparing you for the job at hand, and just being there to get the certificate, but then:

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Original post by Concentrate Not to mention all these whores and temptation to ruin one's life forever!

Does this mean the whole thread is a joke, or are you serious?

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Original post by Concentrate It rather teaches me how to study by my own

Which is an essential skill to have.

I studied industrial design and engineering, and went to law school, finally ended up as a game developer. I learned how to program by myself, and I think I'm pretty decent at it. However, it also means that my knowledge is limited to what is directly applicable and/or what I'm personally interested in. I know plenty of programming languages, but don't ask me how a compiler works. That's exactly the stuff you want to learn in school, before it's too late. :)

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Original post by Concentrate Seriously, I am tired of my school, university of Connecticut. It does not teach me how to become a good programmer.

Forget about it. School will teach you what it can. Hopefully you'll find a use for it. If you feel like "brave enough" you can quit, find yourself a shitty job and make your life from there.

That's what I did. AND I DID FINE.

Stop bitching. Start DOING.

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Original post by RivieraKid Quote: Original post by way2lazy2care you paint some of the best parts of most universities very badly. College is very much about teaching yourself how to learn. It's one of the best skills to take away from it. thats what high school is for. if such a person couldnt do that before they went to univerity said person should never have been allowed into university. Since most people cant teach themselves (or are too lazy) we end up with exams which test memory instead of understanding.

That's a load. High school is about learning stuff and regurgitating it in exams... formulae in math/physics, knowledge and canned arguments for history/geography. High school is about teaching you the syllabus, getting you out the other side with your diploma or whatever it's called,

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Concentrate: You should have done a Software Engineering. Computer Science is science and Finite Automata is a core part of that science. Not very suprising when you look at it like that.

This part I agree. Computer science is actually nothing to do with programming, it's much more abstract, but is where programming comes from. If you want to write applications that display dialogs and talk to databases, don't bother. If you want to work on more research-like software, CS is good.

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You cant really teach programming anyway, it comes from experience. 10,000 hrs to become an expert, GET GOING!

Not true. You can spend 10k hours learning on your own and still be rubbish if nobody points out the bad habits you taught yourself. You can certainly teach all the parts about how to write software with other developers, which is as important as raw coding skills. You can teach a lot of the basic stuff too - anything that you can learn from a book can be taught.

But, experience and self-motivation IS very important. No argument there, learn by doing but balance it by reading blogs, books, etc.

Computer Science is to Computers (And programming) as Astronomy is to Telescopes.

Telescopes are damn useful to Astronomy, but most astronomers aren't sitting with their eye glued to a telescope's eyepiece.


If all you wanted to do was be a code-monkey programmer, then you are wasting your time in university. Go to a tech school, learn the latest buzz word programing languages, get a job, and then be stuck with no where to go in 5-10 years when the world has changed and moved well beyond your education and you are seen as obsolete and useless to employers.


Computer Science degrees aren't about training common programmers. They're about training future designers/software architects/middle management/researchers and cutting edge programmers. Yes when you get out of university you're likely going to get stuck in a code monkey position for a few years, but if you're staying there for years on end, then you're doing things wrong. (Or right if that happens to be where you want to be in life.)

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Original post by d000hg Quote: Concentrate: You should have done a Software Engineering. Computer Science is science and Finite Automata is a core part of that science. Not very suprising when you look at it like that. This part I agree. Computer science is actually nothing to do with programming, it's much more abstract, but is where programming comes from. If you want to write applications that display dialogs and talk to databases, don't bother. If you want to work on more research-like software, CS is good.

Take a Database Management System class. My university offers an undergraduate one that basically involves learning relational databases and then building applications in the language of your choosing to solve real world problems. CS in my experience is not about programming, but for every assignment where you had to show what you learned then you simply used programming. At no point except like freshman year was someone taught to program. You are assumed to already know how to program in whatever language you plan to use. (Only a few times do professors tell you to use a specific language like C for OS class and SPARC for the assembly class).

Also for the display dialogs I would suggest a language specific class. .NET application programming I believe is what my university offers. It uses WPF and C# last I checked.

Also I don't see how you didn't like finite automata. Sure there is a lot of theory, what with lamda transitions and fun stuff and converting between different automatas, but I'm amazed you didn't have applications of it. My final project in Computational Theory was to program something involving finite automata. Some people made elevators and beverage machines. It's a rather roundabout way to do it but they showed their finite automata and their input queues and the transitions. Pretty cool. (There was also a stop light one with little moving cars).

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Original post by Sirisian Also I don't see how you didn't like finite automata. Sure there is a lot of theory, what with lamda transitions and fun stuff and converting between different automatas, but I'm amazed you didn't have applications of it. My final project in Computational Theory was to program something involving finite automata. Some people made elevators and beverage machines. It's a rather roundabout way to do it but they showed their finite automata and their input queues and the transitions. Pretty cool. (There was also a stop light one with little moving cars).

I think you are still underestimating the ubiquity of a state machine.


Have you ever seen a game flow (intro movies, menus, in-game, etc)? That is a FSM.

Ever seen a UI flow? From main menu state to each submenu state to each screen, and back again? That is a FSM.

Have you ever seen an AI system, such as individual game units picking their action based on their current state? Yup, state machine.

What about your programming language itself? It's got a grammar, runs as a Turing complete language, and .... wow, another state machine.

It is almost impossible to write a software system without using a state machine. You will have states regardless of if you recognize them or not.



The original Concentrate post was a troll, plain and simple. Either he honestly doesn't see the value, in which case he is correct in asking why he is wasting his money on schooling, or he is trolling about things which are necessary in education.

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Original post by frob The original Concentrate post was a troll, plain and simple. Either he honestly doesn't see the value, in which case he is correct in asking why he is wasting his money on schooling, or he is trolling about things which are necessary in education.

Between Ruby Rockstars and CSS ninjas, programming is indeed seen as a glamorous profession.


My analogy is this: for every Hollywood celebrity - how many waiter-slash-actors are there? And how many celebrities made it big by taking acting classes?

Sure, it happens. Sometimes. But do check the cast and crew of movies which made these celebrities big.

Want to become famous - it's all about networking with the right people. No amount of talent will help if the proper people don't push you to fame.


Also FSM and Turing are to CS what Newton's laws are to physics. Most physicists rarely if ever use them, but they are, in one way or another, fundamentals of everything they do.

I guess bad wording. Most of my classes are proofs. Prove that this is true or that is false. Write a language that accepts language of this form, or prove the union of R1 and R2 are regular, provided that R1 and R2 are regular... Stuff like that
is useless, to me at least. It help my proving ability but what for? I'm not going
to work on trying to prove the next best theorem. I'll leave that to the extra-ordinary geniuses out there. I wanted to become a programmer because I love to program. And truthfully, school does help somewhat, teaching me how to study by m self, and about data-structures and what not, but if it came down to it, I could do this all by my self, without the expense of 30 grand a year. I'm not saying the things school's are teaching are useless, but my school at least, teaches you how to become a scientist, rather than how to become a programmer. And most teachers here aren't bad and hard to understand. Although, occasionally there are really good teachers. Anyways, I guess this post was a rant, because I know I'm not going to drop out or whatever. Doing to good for that. Its just that, we'll I don't think school is the correct data-structure for software programmers.

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Original post by Concentrate I guess bad wording. Most of my classes are proofs. Prove that this is true or that is false. Write a language that accepts language of this form, or prove the union of R1 and R2 are regular, provided that R1 and R2 are regular... Stuff like that is useless, to me at least. It help my proving ability but what for? I'm not going to work on trying to prove the next best theorem. I'll leave that to the extra-ordinary geniuses out there. I wanted to become a programmer because I love to program. And truthfully, school does help somewhat, teaching me how to study by m self, and about data-structures and what not, but if it came down to it, I could do this all by my self, without the expense of 30 grand a year. I'm not saying the things school's are teaching are useless, but my school at least, teaches you how to become a scientist, rather than how to become a programmer. And most teachers here aren't bad and hard to understand. Although, occasionally there are really good teachers. Anyways, I guess this post was a rant, because I know I'm not going to drop out or whatever. Doing to good for that. Its just that, we'll I don't think school is the correct data-structure for software programmers.

you'd be surprised where all these "useless" things pop up in useful situations.

School is, generally and roughly speaking, an overpriced underachieving waste of your time that will continually infuriate you, cause countless sleepless nights, and generally, well, suck.

That said, about half to two thirds of what you're learning will turn out to be immensely valuable (depending on your ambitions). That's why you're there. That, and you can't get anywhere without it.

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Original post by Concentrate I guess bad wording. Most of my classes are proofs. Prove that this is true or that is false. Write a language that accepts language of this form, or prove the union of R1 and R2 are regular, provided that R1 and R2 are regular... Stuff like that is useless, to me at least.

Let's say there's a ghost in your kitchen. Who you gonna call?

Now instead assume that 'a*bc?^e' doesn't parse all client emails - who you gonna call now? A computer scientist. Or a mathematician, but those tend to be harder to find.

That is the point of specialized study.

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I could do this all by my self,

No, you could not. The reason you need to prove all those fundamentals and boring theorems and repeat it over and over is so the school hammers them into your head. Just like learning to write you have to draw letter A 20 times in a row, then letter B... Of course one could just look it up. And schools have worked out what is important and in which order it must be learned.

Most of this stuff is basic notation that will be used to explain everything else. Not forcing you to master it means later lectures would be a bunch of symbols you don't understand.

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I wanted to become a programmer because I love to program.

Programmer on its own used to mean computer operator. Similar profession as typist (typewriter operator).

Programmers used to be people who would type, punch or weave stuff for computer consumption. Today, anyone called 'programmer' needs to be specialized into some domain in which they solve problems through use of computing. When people say "ruby programmer" they really do web design which involves ruby,html,JS,UX,maintenance,sales,project management and marketing. Only one of those things is programming.

What kind of programmer do you want to be?

I feel like the stuff I pay for here is what I could achieved by my self with a little help from the internet. At the end, I don't think school is doing its best for the students, but rather the best for itself, as almost anyone/anything does.

I am not saying everything I'm learning is useless, I don't believe its worth it. Maybe, John Taylor Gatto is right. The best education one gets is from homeschooling or being self taught. I mean at the end for us programmer, it comes down to how much we know? Not where we graduated from and what degree we have.