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A Newbie, A Vision, No budget.

Started by ageshero Jun 22, 2011 at 12:32 PM 67 replies 19.7k views

Original Post

Jun 22, 2011 at 12:32 PM

Hello everyone, my name is obviously Ageshero, And i have an extremely bad habbit of biting off way more than i could ever chew.

Go easy on me, dont use fancy words(cause you are smarter than to waste that kind of time on me, haha.) No crazy lingo that anyone outside your hobby could ever understand, and if you going to use it, tell me what it means.(Also, there's a whole load of elitist jerks that keep pointing out some how, no matter how i write, that my post is a wall of letters, Get the hell over it okay? Hahahaha.)

Okay, So here is the point, i want to make a 2D Action/Adventure/ RPG video game, Top down probably. I'm aware of engines like Gamemaker, but it seems a bit annoying... and i don't know if its what i want.
I have no Coding or programing experience, lets even assume that i don't even know what that is.

I'm sure there are plenty of problems to have to work through as i go on with the project that i want, It's probably going to be a pc only game, though getting it to work as a homebrew title for some random device would be absolutely wonderful.

I've pretty much got my head wrapped well around the aspects of Art, pixels, Animation, and im working on getting a fluid work flow and understanding music composition programs and sound effects for a classic feel, being a painter and general character artist etc, and also a musician, im ontop of that.

_

So what i need is some sources on what i should do to start learning how i would make a game. Or a really stretchy game engine that will let me do whatever i want ( Anything that is more flexible than RPGMAKERVX which is seems pretty limited and feels like i havent made my own game at all in any way. And might be the same if not easier than GAMEMAKER)

If i find that game maker is really what i want, what am i able and not able to do inside of this. I dont want "THIS GAME WAS MADE WITH GAMEMAKER" slapped on to some poorly designed and ugly loading screen. I figure theres probably a way to remove it.

So basically in the end im asking if there are any programs i should be aware that will help me make my game, but not take the development abilities away from me.

I want to be able to make cutscenes, and interesting title screens and things. If anyone has some help of any kind, please throw it at me.

Earthbound is the best example, a game pretty similar to the style and function of what i want.
(info like, how on earth did they make things Flash, move, animate, The crazy little background motion effects)

-

Another little bit of info, If gamemaker is my option, I want to make it look like game maker was never even there. I dont want framerate Defying smooth motions that destract entirely from the pixelly style of the game either.
-

Hope this wasnt to confusing, any help is appreciated ( im not a rocket scientist, speak english please.)

Lesan

Jun 22, 2011 at 2:38 PM

Hello Ageshero,

I think you have three options:

1. Learn coding (= creating computer applications and games by writing specific english words that a computer understands into a specific application called an IDE), start learning programming stuff like functions, cycles, conditions and so on. This will take a lot of time and will not allow you to make an RPG or adventure soon.

2. Use, as you said, some kind of RPG Maker. This will not allow you much customization and it will look like all other games created in the same Maker. It will also probably cost you some money.

3. Use Gamemaker or gemtree.com Peter or other similar tools. I recommend Gamemaker. The loading screen and other typical for Game Maker stuff can be removed by purchasing the full version of Gamemaker. You have to realize, though, that if you want your game to be different from other Game Maker or RPG Maker-made games, you must get some coding or programming experience. In my opinion, Gamemaker allows you to do absolutely anything you could do in normal programming languages. But to use these advanced features, you will need to learn to use it.

I hope this helps.

canary40

Jun 22, 2011 at 3:05 PM

Hi,

To be honest, it already sounds like you are biting off more than you can chew!

I remember when I first started wanting to make a game, oh the ideas and features I had planned, but once getting into actually making the game, I realized why the no one had made such a game before... it was too hard/not practical... etc.

I think you should reevaluate just exactly what you want, whether it be just making a game this one time and never to do something like it again:
- find a coder and pitch your game idea to him/her (read game design book beforehand maybe..)
- use game maker or something similar (as for your wish for making it seem like you didn't use game maker... once you start, you may realize just what qualities in a game will reveal its game-maker-esque nature and find a way to conceal it maybe or perhaps you will realize that it's not important at all...)

Use making a game as a learning experience for game development in the future:
- learn coding (it will a long time between starting to learn coding and making a game with lots of frustration in between- not a decision to make lightly)

yeah,
bye

ageshero

Author

ageshero

Jun 22, 2011 at 3:08 PM

Thank you for the help, it does help a little.

I would probably like to use GameMaker in the end, it might suit my needs, But how much about programming and the like, do i really need to know to be making a game of the same caliber as classic RPG epics, Whether it's Secret of mana, Final Fantasy, Chrono trigger or Earthbound.

JosephParrilla

Jun 22, 2011 at 5:13 PM

Thank you for the help, it does help a little.

I would probably like to use GameMaker in the end, it might suit my needs, But how much about programming and the like, do i really need to know to be making a game of the same caliber as classic RPG epics, Whether it's Secret of mana, Final Fantasy, Chrono trigger or Earthbound.

Well from your first post you are totally selling yourself short already. Your implying that you are basically dumb and are incapable of learning anything relatively difficult, which Im sure is not true. Saying things like "you are smarter than to waste that kind of time on me, haha." is probably not the best way to seem ambitious. I think that you would get some better replies from the "elite" people if you sounded a bit more ambitious and willing to learn some new skills

Anyways, If you have no interest in becoming a programmer, but just want to be a designer (which is what it sounds like), you should probably find some friends who can program. Honestly, even the game designers usually know programming, because it makes it easier to realize whether or not your visions are reasonable in code given the manpower you have. Basically, with NO coding at all, your choices are limited to the tools such as Game Maker... Ive never used those sort of things, but from what I heard you can make some decent games, but even with that you need to use the GML
(Game Maker Language... I think thats what it stands for ) if you want to go deeper. In the end it depends on your goals and what you want to get out of it. If you dont want to be a programmer at all, what you can do on your own will be pretty limited because you will be forced to use tools that do not allow much room for flexibility.

Jouei

Jun 22, 2011 at 5:38 PM

I am going to throw my two cents in, You may or may not be biting off more then you can chew but who cares. If this your dream and you want it bad enough you just have to apply yourself it may take a long time and you may get pissed off or frustrated but no dream ever comes true with out a lot of effort. As for things you would need to know programming wise to make an rpg well quite a bit but there are ways to soften that blow. For instance C# XNA has a RPG starter kit its just a bit of a framework but if you pick up a C# book from the library or wherever and read it you can at least start. Also there are lots of game engines out there doing a TILE TO TILE movement system really is not that hard. Things like the Chrono trigger combat system that's a bit of a different story.

In an honest opp-ion if you do not want to code get a lot of graphics together get a very good design doc done and post an add on the help wanted forum remember to use the template some younger programmers who may not care if there is money in it may come around providing you have everything nicely laid out and easy to see what you want.

You seem like you want to really do this, So start small break a problem down and see the options if you mess up big whoop just got to start over.

Keep at it, and don't leave your self that short.

Regards XainFaith

Aardvajk

1,172

Aardvajk

Jun 22, 2011 at 5:49 PM

I would probably like to use GameMaker in the end, it might suit my needs, But how much about programming and the like, do i really need to know to be making a game of the same caliber as classic RPG epics, Whether it's Secret of mana, Final Fantasy, Chrono trigger or Earthbound.

Also, bear in mind there is a great deal more talent involved in a game being considered of that "calibre" than merely programming. These days, actually programming is probably a lot less significant than:

Modelling
Animation
Story writing and scripting
Voice talent
Sales and marketing

The list goes on. All of these factors contribute to a modern game being considered of a certain "calibre". Programming is a minor part, especially since a great deal of modern titles will use existing engines.

If you can manage all of the above yourself, good luck to you, but reality is most of these things cost money unfortunately.

Indie developers are successful these days by innovation, not imitation.

JosephParrilla

Jun 22, 2011 at 6:05 PM

[quote name='ageshero' timestamp='1308755297' post='4826460']
I would probably like to use GameMaker in the end, it might suit my needs, But how much about programming and the like, do i really need to know to be making a game of the same caliber as classic RPG epics, Whether it's Secret of mana, Final Fantasy, Chrono trigger or Earthbound.

Modelling
Animation
Story writing and scripting
Voice talent
Sales and marketing

The list goes on. All of these factors contribute to a modern game being considered of a certain "calibre". Programming is a minor part, especially since a great deal of modern titles will use existing engines.

If you can manage all of the above yourself, good luck to you, but reality is most of these things cost money unfortunately.

Indie developers are successful these days by innovation, not imitation.
[/quote]

Thats a great point. From what I can tell, most of the really ground breaking indie games are not the ones that had goals of using existing technology and making a "high caliber" game. The ones that really got huge were ones that added gameplay innovation that had never been done before, or gameplay that had not been done WELL before. Look at Minecraft, Braid, Limbo, Cave Story, etc. none of these games attempted to imitate a previous game, sure they have some similar aspects.. but its impossible not to. What these games did was define new and exciting gameplay that noone really explored well before. Sure you can use an existing dev kit Game Maker, but you have to make sure that its limitations dont force you to simply recreate whats already been done. Some recent tools are really making it possible to have a lot of freedom (ie: Unity), but even though it simplifies a lot of the process, the idea, the art, the code, etc must be YOURS if you want to create anything new and exciting. Sure you can go and pump out an FPS with Unreal Engine, but how much different will it be than all of the others?? Unless you really dig deep, probably not very much.

ageshero

Author

ageshero

Jun 23, 2011 at 10:24 AM

Personally, i am more of an Art director and designer. Its just i dont always have people at my beck and call to get working on the things. I cant rely on people very easilly, most people will get bored and either quit, or put it off for a really long while.

Either way, im The writer and Artist for the production of course, And i only used the listed games as an example to demonstrate the kind of of style of play i was looking for. I have alot of ideas for innovative gameplay, but that is way way to complex and into the thick of the whole thing to think about just yet.

It's extremely important that both gameplay, and story, and highly engaging, and i dont see alot of epic rpg single player addictive indy games out there. That it's self is an engaging thought. im out there to make classics, and i have big dreams. And by no means do i think im incapable of producing this kind of a thing, ive observed and loved classics all my life, and have always wanted to make one that could be consider as such as well. in the same spiritual success of the greats. Heck i would even consider 3d models and what not for a FF7 style game, even attempt to get the same charmingly awful graphics. But currently i want to start small, and simple with some base projects, the bigger one being the rpg Epic.

some philosophy and form of thinking within the realm of programming and coding would be really useful... I have concepts and ideas and all the things i need probably. but is codeing in itself creative enough for someone to handle that and i handle the other things? Obviously i could use a good assistant programer. But its not really out of selfishness that i do it myself, rather the fact i need the experience and the skill, to work for myself and help my assistant if i had one with the problems that come up.

ageshero

Author

ageshero

Jun 23, 2011 at 10:27 AM

Here's a good question, Can i pump out a pixel based non 3d, and totally flat RPG adventure within the confines of the unreal Engine? Another thing is, i couldn't sell it either. if i used UDK.

but imagine pushing UDK to do something like that. interesting.

JosephParrilla

Jun 23, 2011 at 2:51 PM

Well I think udk is kind of overkill for that. A project of that scale is better suited for a game framework like xna.. not a full blown 3d fps engine. If you're doing this yourself.. my advice would be to learn to program

Aardvajk

1,172

Aardvajk

Jun 23, 2011 at 4:40 PM

Personally, i am more of an Art director and designer. Its just i dont always have people at my beck and call to get working on the things. I cant rely on people very easilly, most people will get bored and either quit, or put it off for a really long while.

This is very true and I would imagine one of the main reasons that team-based non-payed projects rarely succeed.

Either way, im The writer and Artist for the production of course, And i only used the listed games as an example to demonstrate the kind of of style of play i was looking for. I have alot of ideas for innovative gameplay, but that is way way to complex and into the thick of the whole thing to think about just yet.

Innovations within a given style of play are rare. It is not likely your project will succeed as an indie title because it contains a few innovative elements. Look at the recent indie successes, research what has worked. In general, the entire concept of a successful low-budget title is original, not just elements within a previously conquered genre.

It's extremely important that both gameplay, and story, and highly engaging, and i dont see alot of epic rpg single player addictive indy games out there. That it's self is an engaging thought.

That is probably because to be epic, RPGs require a lot of content. Producing content is far, far harder for an indie than programming, having ideas or writing stories.

im out there to make classics, and i have big dreams. And by no means do i think im incapable of producing this kind of a thing, ive observed and loved classics all my life, and have always wanted to make one that could be consider as such as well. in the same spiritual success of the greats.

I'm afraid none of the qualities you list are in any way relevant to your ability to achieve your goal.

Heck i would even consider 3d models and what not for a FF7 style game, even attempt to get the same charmingly awful graphics.

I'd imagine that they weren't considered charmingly awful at the time of release, just that the world has moved on in terms of graphics quality and user-expectation.

But currently i want to start small, and simple with some base projects, the bigger one being the rpg Epic.

This is good. You are aware that your current vision requires some groundwork first.

some philosophy and form of thinking within the realm of programming and coding would be really useful... I have concepts and ideas and all the things i need probably. but is codeing in itself creative enough for someone to handle that and i handle the other things? Obviously i could use a good assistant programer. But its not really out of selfishness that i do it myself, rather the fact i need the experience and the skill, to work for myself and help my assistant if i had one with the problems that come up.

You are not looking for an assistant. You are looking for someone with greater ability than you currently have. This is called a mentor, not an assistant. It is highly unlikely that anyone will do this for free as, in the main, such people will be occupied with their own projects or busy being paid to work on other people's.

You need to have a great deal to offer to attract other people to work reliably on a project for free. Don't be afraid of people stealing your ideas - this doesn't happen in reality, ideas are not worth stealing - and communicate the innovations you have invented. Communicate the story that you are envisage. As Art Director, show some concept work. Hard to be an Art Director who vaguely describes things to artists then either confirms or refutes whether the results are as desired.

Here's a good question, Can i pump out a pixel based non 3d, and totally flat RPG adventure within the confines of the unreal Engine? Another thing is, i couldn't sell it either. if i used UDK.

Probably, but as the above poster said it would be a gross misuse of the wrong tool for a job.

but imagine pushing UDK to do something like that. interesting.

"Crippling" would be a better term than "pushing" in this context.

I apologise if any of the above seems harsh. But if you choose the recruiting others route, have a flick through the Help Wanted section of this site to see how hard it is to engage other people with just ideas, concepts and stories.

If you decide to go down the route of programming yourself, you either need to accept the limitations of the available GameMaker-style applications or learn to program in a less restrictive language. If the latter, most of us need to start with something like Pong, work up through Tetris and Asteroids and go from there.

JosephParrilla

Jun 23, 2011 at 4:52 PM

[quote name='ageshero' timestamp='1308824662' post='4826709']
Personally, i am more of an Art director and designer. Its just i dont always have people at my beck and call to get working on the things. I cant rely on people very easilly, most people will get bored and either quit, or put it off for a really long while.

This is very true and I would imagine one of the main reasons that team-based non-payed projects rarely succeed.

Either way, im The writer and Artist for the production of course, And i only used the listed games as an example to demonstrate the kind of of style of play i was looking for. I have alot of ideas for innovative gameplay, but that is way way to complex and into the thick of the whole thing to think about just yet.

It's extremely important that both gameplay, and story, and highly engaging, and i dont see alot of epic rpg single player addictive indy games out there. That it's self is an engaging thought.

That is probably because to be epic, RPGs require a lot of content. Producing content is far, far harder for an indie than programming, having ideas or writing stories.

im out there to make classics, and i have big dreams. And by no means do i think im incapable of producing this kind of a thing, ive observed and loved classics all my life, and have always wanted to make one that could be consider as such as well. in the same spiritual success of the greats.

I'm afraid none of the qualities you list are in any way relevant to your ability to achieve your goal.

Heck i would even consider 3d models and what not for a FF7 style game, even attempt to get the same charmingly awful graphics.

I'd imagine that they weren't considered charmingly awful at the time of release, just that the world has moved on in terms of graphics quality and user-expectation.

But currently i want to start small, and simple with some base projects, the bigger one being the rpg Epic.

This is good. You are aware that your current vision requires some groundwork first.

some philosophy and form of thinking within the realm of programming and coding would be really useful... I have concepts and ideas and all the things i need probably. but is codeing in itself creative enough for someone to handle that and i handle the other things? Obviously i could use a good assistant programer. But its not really out of selfishness that i do it myself, rather the fact i need the experience and the skill, to work for myself and help my assistant if i had one with the problems that come up.

Here's a good question, Can i pump out a pixel based non 3d, and totally flat RPG adventure within the confines of the unreal Engine? Another thing is, i couldn't sell it either. if i used UDK.

Probably, but as the above poster said it would be a gross misuse of the wrong tool for a job.

but imagine pushing UDK to do something like that. interesting.

ageshero

Author

ageshero

Jun 23, 2011 at 7:15 PM

[quote name='ageshero' timestamp='1308824662' post='4826709']
Personally, i am more of an Art director and designer. Its just i dont always have people at my beck and call to get working on the things. I cant rely on people very easilly, most people will get bored and either quit, or put it off for a really long while.

This is very true and I would imagine one of the main reasons that team-based non-payed projects rarely succeed.

Either way, im The writer and Artist for the production of course, And i only used the listed games as an example to demonstrate the kind of of style of play i was looking for. I have alot of ideas for innovative gameplay, but that is way way to complex and into the thick of the whole thing to think about just yet.

It's extremely important that both gameplay, and story, and highly engaging, and i dont see alot of epic rpg single player addictive indy games out there. That it's self is an engaging thought.

That is probably because to be epic, RPGs require a lot of content. Producing content is far, far harder for an indie than programming, having ideas or writing stories.

im out there to make classics, and i have big dreams. And by no means do i think im incapable of producing this kind of a thing, ive observed and loved classics all my life, and have always wanted to make one that could be consider as such as well. in the same spiritual success of the greats.

I'm afraid none of the qualities you list are in any way relevant to your ability to achieve your goal.

Heck i would even consider 3d models and what not for a FF7 style game, even attempt to get the same charmingly awful graphics.

I'd imagine that they weren't considered charmingly awful at the time of release, just that the world has moved on in terms of graphics quality and user-expectation.

But currently i want to start small, and simple with some base projects, the bigger one being the rpg Epic.

This is good. You are aware that your current vision requires some groundwork first.

some philosophy and form of thinking within the realm of programming and coding would be really useful... I have concepts and ideas and all the things i need probably. but is codeing in itself creative enough for someone to handle that and i handle the other things? Obviously i could use a good assistant programer. But its not really out of selfishness that i do it myself, rather the fact i need the experience and the skill, to work for myself and help my assistant if i had one with the problems that come up.

Here's a good question, Can i pump out a pixel based non 3d, and totally flat RPG adventure within the confines of the unreal Engine? Another thing is, i couldn't sell it either. if i used UDK.

Probably, but as the above poster said it would be a gross misuse of the wrong tool for a job.

but imagine pushing UDK to do something like that. interesting.

ageshero

Author

ageshero

Jun 23, 2011 at 7:40 PM

Ugggghhh, i was typing something really big, but i clicked a button and everything got messed up.

The gist of it was. UDK, think outside the box, use for a 2d? amazing, that's kind of innovative if you ask me.

And Dont tell me tell me my game wont sell, or that it isnt innovative, because noone has seen or even played the non existing game that cant really be anything unless i have a programer and some programming experience. and that im not out to be an ass, Just making it clear, i dont want thousands of subdividing topics. if UDK cant work than just say No, that will not work. and a reason why maybe.

So sorry if im being mean.

So onwards, Im a newbie, no budget, I want to learn some basic programming and maybe find some guy to help on this vision of mine. Im writing the story, and the music. and all the visual and ideas that really go into the game to make it a whole. and honestly i dont know anything about the programming which is why im here, asking questions

Personally if UDK could run on my pc (which i cant, lol) I think it would be something really different to use for that kind of a game,

JosephParrilla

Jun 23, 2011 at 7:50 PM

Ugggghhh, i was typing something really big, but i clicked a button and everything got messed up.

The gist of it was. UDK, think outside the box, use for a 2d? amazing, that's kind of innovative if you ask me.

And Dont tell me tell me my game wont sell, or that it isnt innovative, because noone has seen or even played the non existing game that cant really be anything unless i have a programer and some programming experience. and that im not out to be an ass, Just making it clear, i dont want thousands of subdividing topics. if UDK cant work than just say No, that will not work. and a reason why maybe.

So sorry if im being mean.

So onwards, Im a newbie, no budget, I want to learn some basic programming and maybe find some guy to help on this vision of mine. Im writing the story, and the music. and all the visual and ideas that really go into the game to make it a whole. and honestly i dont know anything about the programming which is why im here, asking questions

Personally if UDK could run on my pc (which i cant, lol) I think it would be something really different to use for that kind of a game,

I dont think you are understanding. There is NOTHING innovative about using UDK for a old style 2d rpg. You will get no advantage by using UDK over a better suited 2d engine. Nobody will care to be quite honest. It will take you longer and there will be absolutely no benefit. Unreal Engine is a 3D engine best suited for first person shooters. You can definitely make a non first person shooter with it.. but to use it to make a 2d rpg in the style of something like Chrono Trigger.. thats totally pointless.

Short answer, since you just want yes or no.. Will UDK work? Yes of course. Should you use it? No.

Anyway, you want to learn to program.. pick a language, pick a book, read, and practice. My recommendation would be either Python, Java, or C#... mainly because they are pretty friendly and have decent game frameworks you can add on.

toony

Jun 23, 2011 at 9:01 PM

Focus on the vision! Cross [s]no budget[/s] out and you should be fine! If you have the time, and if you can forget the fact that programming same old console apps gets boring, you should be fine with learning to code.

colossal

Jun 23, 2011 at 10:18 PM

ageshero, here is my advice for you, I am not going to sugar coat anything

1) Do not use UDK, if YOU use UDK at this point, you're project will fail. period.

2) Do not bother learning programming. The reason is because this thread isn't about making your dream game, it's about how many shortcuts you can take to get to your end goal. Beginners with this attitude frankly do not have the patience to learn programming well enough to make a full fledged video game. An exact analogy to this would be you asking how to make a skyscraper when you don't even know what a hammer is.

3) Use GameMaker. You are worrying about a splash screen appearing on your game, not the fidelity of the tool, which is effecting how serious everyone can take you here.

Making video games is not easy, but if you want to make it happen, you already have answered your own questions and deep down you know you already have the knowledge of what needs to be done. Good luck.

ageshero

Author

ageshero

Jun 24, 2011 at 3:57 AM

People have a real Schtick about letting me know what i think, Lol As if i dont know what im trying to do.

Why not Udk, i plan to create a 3d project eventually yes? If i dont start learning now, ill never get a dream game made now will i? hm?

ageshero

Author

ageshero

Jun 24, 2011 at 3:58 AM

Focus on the vision! Cross [s]no budget[/s] out and you should be fine! If you have the time, and if you can forget the fact that programming same old console apps gets boring, you should be fine with learning to code.

Console apps?

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