What do you mean limit them? Being able to ressurect constantly damages a raid event. The raid would have to kill you fast enough that enough players couldn't create a revolving defense where they slowly wear down the raid. Sandbox games still have rules, its not godmode or something.
And not all players can use magic. You have to either find magic powers through exploration or join a guild.

When you die your gear remains with your "corpse". You must then resurrect, collect your belongings, and then re-gear before you can participate again. Otherwise you have to go pickup fresh gear before you can return to battle. Players cannot loot other players unless consented or the corpse has been dormant for a long enough period, dependent on game design.

I wouldn't expect all characters to have magic and I am glad you don't intend to design that way.

I think avoiding the division of players is the best way to go and sending them "to the other nearest city" can piss people off and just add the run back to the fight as a penalty. Are penalty runs the way you wish to go? If so, by all means. It really all depends on the larger scope of the game because I don't feel death systems can be decided over one mechanic alone in an MMO.

[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1325429965' post='4898663']
What do you mean limit them? Being able to ressurect constantly damages a raid event. The raid would have to kill you fast enough that enough players couldn't create a revolving defense where they slowly wear down the raid. Sandbox games still have rules, its not godmode or something.
And not all players can use magic. You have to either find magic powers through exploration or join a guild.

When you die your gear remains with your "corpse". You must then resurrect, collect your belongings, and then re-gear before you can participate again. Otherwise you have to go pickup fresh gear before you can return to battle. Players cannot loot other players unless consented or the corpse has been dormant for a long enough period, dependent on game design.

I wouldn't expect all characters to have magic and I am glad you don't intend to design that way.

I think avoiding the division of players is the best way to go and sending them "to the other nearest city" can piss people off and just add the run back to the fight as a penalty. Are penalty runs the way you wish to go? If so, by all means. It really all depends on the larger scope of the game because I don't feel death systems can be decided over one mechanic alone in an MMO.
[/quote]

I don't really wanna do corpse runs. I dunno. I might end up doing it. But the death mechanic is going to be variable I think. For standard pve deaths I would rather just teleport a player to a bound town. The game world is gonna be pretty big. If you die hours and hours away from town doing a corpse run would be a bitch.

[quote name='Caldenfor' timestamp='1325430804' post='4898670']
[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1325429965' post='4898663']
What do you mean limit them? Being able to ressurect constantly damages a raid event. The raid would have to kill you fast enough that enough players couldn't create a revolving defense where they slowly wear down the raid. Sandbox games still have rules, its not godmode or something.
And not all players can use magic. You have to either find magic powers through exploration or join a guild.

When you die your gear remains with your "corpse". You must then resurrect, collect your belongings, and then re-gear before you can participate again. Otherwise you have to go pickup fresh gear before you can return to battle. Players cannot loot other players unless consented or the corpse has been dormant for a long enough period, dependent on game design.

I wouldn't expect all characters to have magic and I am glad you don't intend to design that way.

I think avoiding the division of players is the best way to go and sending them "to the other nearest city" can piss people off and just add the run back to the fight as a penalty. Are penalty runs the way you wish to go? If so, by all means. It really all depends on the larger scope of the game because I don't feel death systems can be decided over one mechanic alone in an MMO.
[/quote]

I don't really wanna do corpse runs. I dunno. I might end up doing it. But the death mechanic is going to be variable I think. For standard pve deaths I would rather just teleport a player to a bound town. The game world is gonna be pretty big. If you die hours and hours away from town doing a corpse run would be a bitch.
[/quote]

That is why I was keying in on the "wandering healer". You die, you become a ghost, you must find a way to be resurrected. You don't go "poof" and reappear alive at a city. Gear dropping on death I am only okay with if there is no FFA PvP. I also think it would be interesting to add a table to NPCs that would determine what they would/wouldn't want to take from your corpse so death COULD lose you items, dependent on what is around to loot you. A grizzly bear would rummage your body for food at the very least while a bandit may take some jewels/etc. If these NPCs are then killed, minus goods consumed, they would drop what they collected varying the loot made available.

[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1325444036' post='4898722']
[quote name='Caldenfor' timestamp='1325430804' post='4898670']
[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1325429965' post='4898663']
What do you mean limit them? Being able to ressurect constantly damages a raid event. The raid would have to kill you fast enough that enough players couldn't create a revolving defense where they slowly wear down the raid. Sandbox games still have rules, its not godmode or something.
And not all players can use magic. You have to either find magic powers through exploration or join a guild.

When you die your gear remains with your "corpse". You must then resurrect, collect your belongings, and then re-gear before you can participate again. Otherwise you have to go pickup fresh gear before you can return to battle. Players cannot loot other players unless consented or the corpse has been dormant for a long enough period, dependent on game design.

I wouldn't expect all characters to have magic and I am glad you don't intend to design that way.

I think avoiding the division of players is the best way to go and sending them "to the other nearest city" can piss people off and just add the run back to the fight as a penalty. Are penalty runs the way you wish to go? If so, by all means. It really all depends on the larger scope of the game because I don't feel death systems can be decided over one mechanic alone in an MMO.
[/quote]

I don't really wanna do corpse runs. I dunno. I might end up doing it. But the death mechanic is going to be variable I think. For standard pve deaths I would rather just teleport a player to a bound town. The game world is gonna be pretty big. If you die hours and hours away from town doing a corpse run would be a bitch.
[/quote]

That is why I was keying in on the "wandering healer". You die, you become a ghost, you must find a way to be resurrected. You don't go "poof" and reappear alive at a city. Gear dropping on death I am only okay with if there is no FFA PvP. I also think it would be interesting to add a table to NPCs that would determine what they would/wouldn't want to take from your corpse so death COULD lose you items, dependent on what is around to loot you. A grizzly bear would rummage your body for food at the very least while a bandit may take some jewels/etc. If these NPCs are then killed, minus goods consumed, they would drop what they collected varying the loot made available.
[/quote]

Given the size of the world and the rarity of magic much less healing magic I don't think its viable. Of course that may be one of those things it would be useful to know to decide on viable death mechanics
I think the ghost thing would just irritate people depending on how long it took. I dunno, I will probably have to change it later in the game anyways.

[quote name='ReaCaer' timestamp='1325429771' post='4898661']
In a sandbox there shouldnt be "invisible walls", both physically and gameplay-wise.
So, making raiders invisible to flagged players would be a a bad option and would break realism.

I dont know how character stats and gear matter into your game but maybe you could just make players that die during a raid extremelly weak (to everyone or just to the raiders) once they respawn for a given ammount of time so that they can still watch the raid going on and try to help defending while beeing way less effective tho.
Another option might be to prevent the players from respawning at the city binding spot and let them chose another binding spot that is atleast XXX to YYY meters away from the town (dont make it TOO far or else ppl might exploit it to fast-travel away).

The point of the flag system is to allow players to continue playing the game without being able to interfere in the raid. If you are so weak that you can't do anything, how is that substantively different from being dead. I will probably just spawn them at the nearest other city though I think.
[/quote]

The substantial difference is that even if they're way less effective they can still partecipate in some way, there's no hard rule to block the realism there: "you died so you cant attack those raiders anymore" sounds bad to me.

Or you could make mobs stronger/receive backups as a player dies as a penality to that death and still let that player respawn there and fight.

And/or.. about the "pick another binding spot, this city is under attack" maybe that could be set by the owners of that city (if its created by players) as a raid refugees respawn or something (still at a certain distance from the city, quite far but not too much).

[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1325430180' post='4898666']
[quote name='ReaCaer' timestamp='1325429771' post='4898661']
In a sandbox there shouldnt be "invisible walls", both physically and gameplay-wise.
So, making raiders invisible to flagged players would be a a bad option and would break realism.

I dont know how character stats and gear matter into your game but maybe you could just make players that die during a raid extremelly weak (to everyone or just to the raiders) once they respawn for a given ammount of time so that they can still watch the raid going on and try to help defending while beeing way less effective tho.
Another option might be to prevent the players from respawning at the city binding spot and let them chose another binding spot that is atleast XXX to YYY meters away from the town (dont make it TOO far or else ppl might exploit it to fast-travel away).

The point of the flag system is to allow players to continue playing the game without being able to interfere in the raid. If you are so weak that you can't do anything, how is that substantively different from being dead. I will probably just spawn them at the nearest other city though I think.
[/quote]

The substantial difference is that even if they're way less effective they can still partecipate in some way, there's no hard rule to block the realism there: "you died so you cant attack those raiders anymore" sounds bad to me.

Or you could make mobs stronger/receive backups as a player dies as a penality to that death and still let that player respawn there and fight.

And/or.. about the "pick another binding spot, this city is under attack" maybe that could be set by the owners of that city (if its created by players) as a raid refugees respawn or something (still at a certain distance from the city, quite far but not too much).
[/quote]

I think that letting them continue to fight IS what ruins realism. We have to give up dying=dying because you couldn't get enough players willing to lose their months and months of work. But letting someone respawn after dying in a raid is something I want to avoid at least for the duration of that raid. As for backup, my game has rules. Where monsters come from is relatively constrained, I can't just magically spawn new ones. No game does that unless they have a rezzing mechanic. Instancing is what allows it to work there but no instancing in a sandbox.

[quote name='ReaCaer' timestamp='1325458451' post='4898789']
[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1325430180' post='4898666']
[quote name='ReaCaer' timestamp='1325429771' post='4898661']
In a sandbox there shouldnt be "invisible walls", both physically and gameplay-wise.
So, making raiders invisible to flagged players would be a a bad option and would break realism.

I dont know how character stats and gear matter into your game but maybe you could just make players that die during a raid extremelly weak (to everyone or just to the raiders) once they respawn for a given ammount of time so that they can still watch the raid going on and try to help defending while beeing way less effective tho.
Another option might be to prevent the players from respawning at the city binding spot and let them chose another binding spot that is atleast XXX to YYY meters away from the town (dont make it TOO far or else ppl might exploit it to fast-travel away).

The point of the flag system is to allow players to continue playing the game without being able to interfere in the raid. If you are so weak that you can't do anything, how is that substantively different from being dead. I will probably just spawn them at the nearest other city though I think.
[/quote]

The substantial difference is that even if they're way less effective they can still partecipate in some way, there's no hard rule to block the realism there: "you died so you cant attack those raiders anymore" sounds bad to me.

Or you could make mobs stronger/receive backups as a player dies as a penality to that death and still let that player respawn there and fight.

And/or.. about the "pick another binding spot, this city is under attack" maybe that could be set by the owners of that city (if its created by players) as a raid refugees respawn or something (still at a certain distance from the city, quite far but not too much).
[/quote]

I think that letting them continue to fight IS what ruins realism. We have to give up dying=dying because you couldn't get enough players willing to lose their months and months of work. But letting someone respawn after dying in a raid is something I want to avoid at least for the duration of that raid. As for backup, my game has rules. Where monsters come from is relatively constrained, I can't just magically spawn new ones. No game does that unless they have a rezzing mechanic. Instancing is what allows it to work there but no instancing in a sandbox.
[/quote]

The thing is that I believe everyone has been trying to get a prototypical fantasy MMORPG open world response for you. Apparently your game isn't prototypical so these differences of which restrict the decision need to be known for others to better assist you.

We are trying to help you solve an issue that isn't fully explained so we aren't able to give you the answers you want. In an MMORPG where there is combat there will be death, if only temporary, or some form of defeat. You are looking for defeat without death or death without a chance to return to attempt victory.

I just don't see many people enjoying a game that locks them out of content for a single death in an open world environment. You may be aiming to fill a niche, so please, better describe the niche you aim to fill.

[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1325460026' post='4898795']
[quote name='ReaCaer' timestamp='1325458451' post='4898789']
[quote name='AltarofScience' timestamp='1325430180' post='4898666']
[quote name='ReaCaer' timestamp='1325429771' post='4898661']
In a sandbox there shouldnt be "invisible walls", both physically and gameplay-wise.
So, making raiders invisible to flagged players would be a a bad option and would break realism.

I dont know how character stats and gear matter into your game but maybe you could just make players that die during a raid extremelly weak (to everyone or just to the raiders) once they respawn for a given ammount of time so that they can still watch the raid going on and try to help defending while beeing way less effective tho.
Another option might be to prevent the players from respawning at the city binding spot and let them chose another binding spot that is atleast XXX to YYY meters away from the town (dont make it TOO far or else ppl might exploit it to fast-travel away).

The point of the flag system is to allow players to continue playing the game without being able to interfere in the raid. If you are so weak that you can't do anything, how is that substantively different from being dead. I will probably just spawn them at the nearest other city though I think.
[/quote]

The substantial difference is that even if they're way less effective they can still partecipate in some way, there's no hard rule to block the realism there: "you died so you cant attack those raiders anymore" sounds bad to me.

Or you could make mobs stronger/receive backups as a player dies as a penality to that death and still let that player respawn there and fight.

And/or.. about the "pick another binding spot, this city is under attack" maybe that could be set by the owners of that city (if its created by players) as a raid refugees respawn or something (still at a certain distance from the city, quite far but not too much).
[/quote]

I think that letting them continue to fight IS what ruins realism. We have to give up dying=dying because you couldn't get enough players willing to lose their months and months of work. But letting someone respawn after dying in a raid is something I want to avoid at least for the duration of that raid. As for backup, my game has rules. Where monsters come from is relatively constrained, I can't just magically spawn new ones. No game does that unless they have a rezzing mechanic. Instancing is what allows it to work there but no instancing in a sandbox.
[/quote]

The thing is that I believe everyone has been trying to get a prototypical fantasy MMORPG open world response for you. Apparently your game isn't prototypical so these differences of which restrict the decision need to be known for others to better assist you.

We are trying to help you solve an issue that isn't fully explained so we aren't able to give you the answers you want. In an MMORPG where there is combat there will be death, if only temporary, or some form of defeat. You are looking for defeat without death or death without a chance to return to attempt victory.

I just don't see many people enjoying a game that locks them out of content for a single death in an open world environment. You may be aiming to fill a niche, so please, better describe the niche you aim to fill.
[/quote]

Well they aren't locked out of content, just one very specific event in a vast world. They can do anything else in the game.

I am actually getting some useful ideas and responses here and elsewhere. Even without you understanding the entire game. I don't want someone else to solve my problem per say, I just want to see what people would do personally or what they think about things I am considering.
I would say try to imagine an rts single player or coop game like Majesty: The Fantasy Kingdom Sim. I think that the problem is that in most cases even sandboxes like UO there aren't really aggressive actions from pve. I mean set towns in EQ and I think UO, and they are buildable or destructable. I mean UO has housing but my player made buildings aren't decorative. I am putting a shitload of sand in my box. Games that most people call sandboxes seem more like playgrounds to me. They have a lot premade and unalterable structure. My box only has sand.
As for death, players die, they will probably die alot because its not just drawing aggro or getting attacked by mobs you hit. The environment is actively hostile. Again Majesty is a perfect example of a lot of creature behavior. Its just simplified and doesn't persist. In most RTS games eventually you have the map beat, there is a breakpoint after which the environment can't rise to meet you. My game is an MMO so the enrivonment needs to scale with the players.
Because the environment functions more like a world with creature behavior that changes and evolves the same death mechanics used in themeparks or playgrounds aren't going to work. If players could constantly respawn like in guildwars or wow not even rezzes but just spawn points where you don't even have a break in the quest you are on, and then stacking essentially no risk rezzes the creatures can't compete. In most MMOs the content is designed around super restricted player numbers and with nearly free rezzes in mind because themeparks don't have to be even remotely realistic with backup creatures and healing and rezzing.

If you really want to know all the ways my game is not like any MMO you have played before I am using my extra webdomain I got for my space browser mmo, which also had weird stuff like no ship classes and no fighter analogues, to create a sort of wiki about the game. I have 28 pages on it I think that go into detail on every aspect of the game. But if you don't want to read all that its perfectly understandable.
When I say that an idea someone presents won't work, I am not saying its bad, just that my game can't use that. And sometimes I make large scale changes based on suggestions I get because I look at that and say, well I hadn't considered that and it would be awesome. I am making discussions because although I can think of an infinite number of game systems, sometimes its important to provide my brain with extraneous input because of the way human cognition works.