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Should pvp be glasscannon like ?

Started by n00b0dy 31 replies 4.2k views
Original Post
n00b0dy
n00b0dy
I would like to ask if pvp should be build around "whoever attacks first wins" or with more balanced approach like wow.

A) Whoever attacks first wins :
Example Glasscannon mages at lv 6 in League of legends. Everything dies in 1 hit. <Annie> at lv 6 can blink and instant kill <le-blanc> in 1 button press, but <le-blanc> could have pressed the attack button before annie blinked, instantly killing her when she comes in range (after blink). So a skilled annie should have blinked after le-blanc pressed attack button on a minion.

Benefits:
1) prevention is important: Since everything dies in 1 hit, you know that if someone attacks first you will instantly die, so you watch spell ranges, skillshots, buy wards. Support champions become usefull because they can buy wards and grant vision of area.
2) Lucky players can go 1vs5 and get penta without losing 1 hp: example fed karthus/fiddlesticks/trynda/yi against nabs.
3) Class imbalance doesnt matter because everything dies in 1hit. This allows more class divercity. You can win even if you have inferior gear, or are an inferior player.

cons:
1) player skill relies only who jumps first on others.
2) battles can last 0 sec [ opponent dies in exactly 1 hit ]
3) melee champions are useless in group battles.
4) can cause rage, trolls, negative attitude.

note: blablabla you can buy armor, but i dont consider it as an option in my analysis in order to demonstrate what "whoever attacks first wins" playstyle means.

Another example is vannilla wow, even if battles lasts longer e.g 6 seconds you will be stunned 100% of your time and just die without being able to do a single thing [i forbid pvp trinket for this mode].

B) Tanky players like in wow cataclysm. Battles take 15-20 seconds to end.

Benefits:
1) The effect of a battles can change even if you get jumped. Skill plays a more important role here.
2) you can "play" before you die.

Cons:
1) nabs wont be able to beat skilled players.
2) class are too homogenized. Why should i play a druid when a warrior does the same job and without having to heal ? It seems the warrior is better, he wins in pvp without having to run away like a coward and he has a much easier playstyle. And the druid gets no rewards for playing a harder class.
3) if enemy has better gear, it just gives the illusion you have a "chance" to fight back. Why not instant die in 0sec (as mercifull death) to avoid watching the 15 second pvp fight.
hustlerinc
hustlerinc
Just basing the pvp on who attacks first doesn't work in most games, and certainly not in RPG's. It fits well in games like Counter Strike and Call of Duty. Because there is aim involved. But targeting and pressing one button does not even deserve to be called PVP, and using the word skill in it is ignorant.

You compare a druid and warrior in wow as if the warrior was a better class. Either you never played a druid, or you just plain sucked.
You can root the warrior in place and kill him from a distance if you are really bad, or go bear form and fight it melee until low HP and heal full almost instantly and then get back into bear. How is the warrior better in that case?

To get back on topic I don't think 1 hit kills should exist in any game where aim is not a factor. And even then the 1 hit killzone should be small (headshot). Otherwise you might aswell implement a dice in the game, and the player who rolls highest wins, and that would be more rewarding than just pressing any attack first.

Just my two cents.
samoth
samoth
In one word: No.

If a game is "whoever attacks first, wins", it means that it will, by design, suck for 50% of the players. Every time.
A game needs to be fun and challenging, and it should last for more than an instant. Games do not have a real purpose, they are for passing time, in an entertaining/satisfying way. Knowing that you will lose anyway because someone fired a shot at you from far away before you were ready is not entertaining. Knowing that you will win anyway because you attacked first is not challenging or entertaining (other than in a sadistic way) either.

Even if the odds are unfavourable, a player must still see (or at least have the illusion of) the possibility of winning, and must, at least in principle, have the possibility to turn the odds.
Inukai
Inukai
I like the "first hit wins"-style more than the other one, since it is more skill-based. Well, the condition is, that you can prevent to be dead after 1 hit.
A really nice example is the wc3 funmap "Fate Another". Each Hero has an ability to 1 shot enemies. However, the map is really skill-based since you can use blink scrolls, Anti magic potions, shield scrolls, run away(vs channeling abilities) or use a defensive skill to survive. It's really exciting when u know that you could die in 1 sec if you don't pay attention. However, new players tend to quit the game, since they don't know how to play and call the map imbalanced and boring, which could be a problem with those games.
I remember my first time playing a fps(cs 1.6). I was really frustrated in the beginning, because I got instant-killed and couldn't even see the enemies >.<

To the other system:

1) [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, verdana, tahoma, sans-serif]

The effect of a battles can change even if you get jumped. Skill plays a more important role here.

[/font]


In my opinion, it's less skill based. Disable as much as possible and use the right skills whenever its possible.
It's true, it requires time to learn the right timing for the skills but that's all.
In fps, u have to aim better than other players and try to "read" them.


I don't like your example for the glass-cannons. There is much more in LoL than "Get to lvl 6 Asap and 1 hit the enemy", like positioning, teamwork, gold, etc.
You could also let a Cho'gath fight against a Galio and you get the 'B' system.
A fps would be a better example for the glasscannons.

In the end, it depends on the game. If Pvp is the main-element(fps), you should go with first one. If pvp is only a side-element (like in most mmorpgs) the 2nd one would be better.
n00b0dy
n00b0dy
@hustlerinc
You mentioned aim. Ok lets suppose we make all attacks dodgeable skillshots.
1) the good thing is the ability to dodge all spells, attacks depending on the player skill, not on character stats.
2) the bad thing is that crowd control spells mean instant death. If 1 stun hits it will disable movement, thus all spells will become auto-hit. Even headshots are easy against immobile opponents.
With this addition "Whoever presses 1 button wins" becomes "Whoever hits with crowd control wins".

Druid means feral druid, since the other specs are against the druid lore
[ no reason to play balance druid if elemental shaman can do more dmg and shock. ]
A feral druid has limited mana, meaning that even if he spends his whole mana bar with the skills you mentioned he will deal 5% of warriors hp, because warrior gets healed from stuns, roots, etc. Also heals can only be used outside of combat, because -healing debuffs mean that you heal less dmg than enemy deals thus it is an illegal action.

@samoth
I see your point, dying without the ability to dodge attacks will be frustating.

Lets say with the addition of skillshots, you "dodge" the first attack, then you kill the enemy in 1 hit if he doesn't dodge it. Will this new pvp mode be the ideal form of playing (as fun is concidered) ?

@Inukai
I am glad that someone has played "league of legends" and can understand what 1-hit pvp means. It is still skill-based even though enemies die in 1 hit.
SiddharthBhat
SiddharthBhat
dropping my 2 cents here

1) true, some LOL champions such as leBlanc, karthus and annie have their killing power expand exponentially on hitting level6, but the point is that their power degrades as the game goes on. Tanks become more tanky and DPS champs start getting more damage. so the field begins to level out. Also, most ultimates have long cooldowns and/or consume huge amounts of mana (yes, I main kassadin). So that balances the gameplay. what you're proposing is that players have the ability to 1 hit all the time, which is downright frustrating, for many reasons, including newbies, lag and a mouse disconnection(I'm not kidding).

On the whole, I personally prefer games where you *can* 1 hit a person if you're just that good(quake railgun anyone?), but battles between experienced players can be longer not in terms of time, but in the number of moves needed.

In my opinion, toribash(http://www.toribash.com/) perfectly encapsulates what I'm trying to put into words. Play the game as a newb, or make a mistake and get 2 moved by pros. but continue playing, and you'll find a deep level of strategy.

Anyway, hope this helps
Bollu
hustlerinc
hustlerinc

A feral druid has limited mana, meaning that even if he spends his whole mana bar with the skills you mentioned he will deal 5% of warriors hp, because warrior gets healed from stuns, roots, etc. Also heals can only be used outside of combat, because -healing debuffs mean that you heal less dmg than enemy deals thus it is an illegal action.

I played a feral/healing pvp specced druid, and my mana was more than enough to keep myself and my team players alive, even if it gets low you have a spell to regenerate full mana. And I was rather overpowered. And by your statement "heals can only be used outside of combat" means you never played wow, ever. The basic pvp in wow revolves around teamwork and endurance unless solo pvp, where there is no team but endurance is even more important.
As a druid I even healed myself and my team-mate WHILE IN BEARFORM by making sure they always had both my heal over times ticking.

That is skill based pvp. Using the abilities of your class the right way.

I dont see how you would make a dodge for a say fireball fit well in game-play. Say there is no auto-aim on the spell. And you can just run away from the bolt, where is the fun?

This means all spells need to be instant and complicated. I still think there is no skill involved, more like spam and hope for the best. Running and jumping around doesn't count as skill in my book.
n00b0dy
n00b0dy
@hustlerinc
in wow i care only about maximizing 1vs1 pvp power. Why care about teamwork ? arathi basin, eye of the storm is all about 1vs1 pvp.
Healing others is needless in 2vs1 pvp, you outnumber the opponent, thus you will win regardless of your actions. If your teamate dies because you didnt heal, just say "good riddance", i didnt need you anyway, you were a burden, i could have won him alone.

Since you spoke about teamplay in 2vs2 if you use heal, i as a warrior would outdps you, thus your heals will be useless, and you do no damage thus you are healing your opponents not yourself because you dont do damage while casting healing spells.

From your playstyle as a feral druid i must question your mathematical skills. Why waste 3sec in doing 40% heals when you could have done 40-50% damage? Its just math, you cant heal and damage at the same time, by using healing spells you went afk to prolong the battle a few seconds, your death would come sooner or later. Damage can heal people to full if the battle ends, Heals dont kill people when your hp bar is full. Which means that damage serves both roles of "Damage dealer" and "healer", but "healer" serves only 1 role. By playing a hybrid playstyle you are gimping yourself in being "bad at everything", other specialised classes would do things better.

You haven't given me a single reason why healing spells should be in a feral druid action bar.
You cant outheal my damage, when i am on top of you, so why use it ?
hustlerinc
hustlerinc

@hustlerinc
in wow i care only about maximizing 1vs1 pvp power. Why care about teamwork ? arathi basin, eye of the storm is all about 1vs1 pvp.
Healing others is needless in 2vs1 pvp, you outnumber the opponent, thus you will win regardless of your actions. If your teamate dies because you didnt heal, just say "good riddance", i didnt need you anyway, you were a burden, i could have won him alone.

Since you spoke about teamplay in 2vs2 if you use heal, i as a warrior would outdps you, thus your heals will be useless, and you do no damage thus you are healing your opponents not yourself because you dont do damage while casting healing spells.

From your playstyle as a feral druid i must question your mathematical skills. Why waste 3sec in doing 40% heals when you could have done 40-50% damage? Its just math, you cant heal and damage at the same time, by using healing spells you went afk to prolong the battle a few seconds, your death would come sooner or later. Damage can heal people to full if the battle ends, Heals dont kill people when your hp bar is full. Which means that damage serves both roles of "Damage dealer" and "healer", but "healer" serves only 1 role. By playing a hybrid playstyle you are gimping yourself in being "bad at everything", other specialised classes would do things better.

You haven't given me a single reason why healing spells should be in a feral druid action bar.
You cant outheal my damage, when i am on top of you, so why use it ?

Dude you have obviously never played wow as a serious player. A druid outheals most damage 1vs1, And do you know what heal over times are? A druid can outheal a warrior using only his HOTS, 3 of them available 2 from normal form 1 in bearform. Combine these and you can outheal any warrior with the same gear, and then im not counting the bigger heals, instant full healths, 1.5 second regrowts that heals half, bash the warrior (stun for 3 sec) and i fit in 2 heals, full health, and I keep healing 1k every 3 seconds thanks to heal over time generated.

I guess you are striving for a 1 hit kill game because that might be the only way to kill someone for you.

Don't say heals in wow are useless and not needed, they are the most basic parts of the pvp, and 9/10 times, if you can heal, and it's a 1vs1 duel, you will most likely be able to outheal anyone.

Priests flash heal, 1.5 second full health. Druid's aswell, paladins are imba with 6 second immunity.
Stormynature
Stormynature

@hustlerinc
in wow i care only about maximizing 1vs1 pvp power. Why care about teamwork ? arathi basin, eye of the storm is all about 1vs1 pvp.
Healing others is needless in 2vs1 pvp, you outnumber the opponent, thus you will win regardless of your actions. If your teamate dies because you didnt heal, just say "good riddance", i didnt need you anyway, you were a burden, i could have won him alone.

Since you spoke about teamplay in 2vs2 if you use heal, i as a warrior would outdps you, thus your heals will be useless, and you do no damage thus you are healing your opponents not yourself because you dont do damage while casting healing spells.

From your playstyle as a feral druid i must question your mathematical skills. Why waste 3sec in doing 40% heals when you could have done 40-50% damage? Its just math, you cant heal and damage at the same time, by using healing spells you went afk to prolong the battle a few seconds, your death would come sooner or later. Damage can heal people to full if the battle ends, Heals dont kill people when your hp bar is full. Which means that damage serves both roles of "Damage dealer" and "healer", but "healer" serves only 1 role. By playing a hybrid playstyle you are gimping yourself in being "bad at everything", other specialised classes would do things better.

You haven't given me a single reason why healing spells should be in a feral druid action bar.
You cant outheal my damage, when i am on top of you, so why use it ?


The irony is that so many changes have been made over the years to the druid class in WoW - There used to be a time when no single player could kill a resto druid as heals outpaced damage and mana regen was too much. Things like purging, spell stealing at that time had some effectiveness but nowhere near what was needed. There also used to be a time when the damage outpaced the healing and the resto druid was simply roadkill (or kindling). Given I haven't been in WoW for quite a whiles now I have no idea what the current status is...but the point I am making is both N00b0dy and Hustlerinc, you could both be correct in your points of outdamaging Vs outhealing simply based on different time periods in the game.

Two healing spells for feral druids appropriate to the class - leader of the pack (combat procced passive heal) and Frenzied regeneration, both are in keeping with feral (if not lore). The resto healing spells not so helpful right in the middle of combat excepting if you get that free instant proc while in kitty form.


1 shot Pvp very much depends on tactical surprise or rapid reactions and has a valid audience of people who want to play that style, correspondingly, extended matches incorporating many different abilities also have a valid audience. What it comes down to is your game design and the style of play you wish to implement in it. For every first person shooter out there with a noob tube there is also an alternative for longer matches. Combining both elements into one game such as two snipers going ahead to head, readjusting their positions, constantly looking for the 1 shot 1 kill moment without dying to the same theme is just one example of an extended play 1 shot game.
hustlerinc
hustlerinc

The irony is that so many changes have been made over the years to the druid class in WoW - There used to be a time when no single player could kill a resto druid as heals outpaced damage and mana regen was too much.

You might be right, I haven't played since the level cap was on 70 and arena pvp was on it's peak with feral/resto druid and pvp warrior teams were unbeatable when the players behind the team were skilled. But I would be suprised if the changes are so big that healing is only useful out of combat, kind of like running away and drinking some water for mana in long battles in the old days.

But WoW atleast in the old days was very much skill based, and the noobs complained because they got raped so they kept "balancing". Might have gone too far with the balancing now I don't know.

But I'm basing it as I used to know wow, like you say, where mage was overpower against some classes but got killed almost instantly by others. That is skill based pvp, and knowing how to use your class was the only way to survive. Polymorph, pyroblast instant fireball fireblast kills was overpower, but good players survived it.
n00b0dy
n00b0dy
@hustlerinc
Fact: I have played wow and warriors do more damage than druid heals, for every 1.5 sec gcd hot you do, i use 1.5sec gcd instant melee strike that does more damage (than the hot would have healed in total duration). I haven't played the recent cataclysm but this was true in all versions before that. Plus you spend mana for no reason.

2) Using leader of the pack, Frenzied regeneration and healing only when the warrior is afk (cycloned, enrooted) will make the druid almost equal in power with a warrior. Which boosts my whole argument that feral druids are inferior since the warrior can kill the druid with only 1 macro, while a druid has to run away, heal, to even have a chance to beat the warrior. Without heals, kite, druid dies and warrior laughs having 50-60% hp.

3) running away from a warrior to drink is only possible if he is afk.

4) wow burning crusade / wrath 2vs2 arena sucked because arena matches lasted 30 min - 1 hour and whoever got bored first lost.
jefferytitan
jefferytitan
Just stepping back from specific games for a moment, I think for pvp games with magic it makes sense to work roughly as follows:
1. More powerful spells take longer to cast or consume more resources. 1-shot is possible for almost anybody if you are prepared and they are not.
2. There are various protections, with their own flaws. Maybe not visible to enemies unless you are attacked or they have special perception abilities. That way you can look unprotected but spank them when they attack.
3. Spells can be combined, but there may be side-effects, e.g. interference patterns, weakening, strange side-effects, takes more to do multiple than the two separately.
4. More work can be used to make an effect more powerful, e.g. a level one can spend 2 hours pouring energy into an artifact to make a 1-shot wonder.
5 A clever player can cast a spell that deflects or changes the effect of an attack, rather like counters etc used in fighting arcade games.
Iron Chef Carnage
Iron Chef Carnage
I like to see a "win" that's less than killing a dude. A one-hit "victory" that just teleports the target far away on the map, or stuns him, or otherwise neutralizes him without straight-up killing the guy, can have all the tactical value of a kill in a respawn-based arena. If you allow different levels of "beaten" to exist, then you can have different levels of "overpowered" that fit in the game. A one-shot that doesn't cost XP or start a respawn timer can be rationalized, and a one-shot that restarts all power cooldowns can be rationalized. Then you can make the "You died, you lose your stuff, you go to jail, you wait out a timer, you respawn as a pauper" kind of death require a little more focused effort, with a few more opportunities for reversal or escape. A guy who's been beaten back once can decide to re-engage in a weakened state and try to use skill and timing and tactical use of consumables to regain the upper hand before his opponent's cheesy sap attack recharges. If he's been beaten back twice, he can go for a Hail Mary and charge in with everything on the line, knowing that a third rebuke will cost him dearly. At any point, the disadvantaged player can choose to take a new stance, rebuild his strength, wait out his cooldowns and get back to 100% combat effectiveness, surrendering a little ground in order to regain his footing. That's a good way to keep the action frenetic without making it baffling or chance-based.
n00b0dy
n00b0dy
I forgot to mention :
Tne best advantage of glasscannon games is Escape power and Fear.

1) Escape power: escaping here matters, because it is your only survival. When an enemy blitzcrank chases you, he can use his ranged spell to pull you to him instantly, killing you in 0sec, you have to evade that. If you run straight to your tower you will die, because he will predict your movement pattern and hit you with his skillshot. You have to change your movement path (e.g running to the right) as he fires his skillshot to evade it, but doing so will mean he will have time to get closer to you since he runs in a straight pattern but you just "dodge to the right", if he reaches close to you, you will die from his punch.
Wow doesnt make escapes meaningfull, you can press 1 button (vanish) and escape combat wherever you want, this isn't pvp !!!

2) Fear: Irelia and lee sin chase jax, jax uses "Ghost" a movement speed summoner spell to run away faster and escape their gank.
They deal damage, jax uses his ult to survive their ranged damage [irelia ult]. Jax successfully manages to reach his tower, irelia afraid of the tower will stop for 0.1sec(reluctant to towerdive), jax smells this and jumps on irelia activating his dodge and becoming immune to dmg, irelia loses 60% hp in 1.5 sec. Irelia and lee sin are both scared and run away. Jax kills irelia after another 1.5 sec. Lee sin totally useless afk nab instead of fighting back runs away. Jax jumps on lee sin killing him after 3 sec. Wow cannot achieve this feeling.

@jefferytitan
There are various protections, with their own flaws. Maybe not visible to enemies unless you are attacked or they have special perception abilities. That way you can look unprotected but spank them when they attack.[/quote]
I like that since they will able to control enemy emotions. Nice suggestion.
Should everyone be able to do that ? for example buying "Potion of deception" making your hp bar decrease to 10-20% hp after 10 seconds [but it lies].

More work can be used to make an effect more powerful, e.g. a level one can spend 2 hours pouring energy into an artifact to make a 1-shot wonder.[/quote]
You mean charged spells ? if for example a mage gets 5-6 seconds of cast time uninterrupted he deserves to 1shot opponents because they were afk.

A clever player can cast a spell that deflects or changes the effect of an attack, rather like counters etc used in fighting arcade games.[/quote]
Seems a great suggestion. From our discussion it seems fair everyone to be able to dodge. But what about counter? should everyone be able to do that? or should it be class specific ? e.g mages counter only spells and warriors counter only melee.

@Iron Chef Carnage
I like to see a "win" that's less than killing a dude. A one-hit "victory" that just teleports the target far away on the map, or stuns him, or otherwise neutralizes him without straight-up killing the guy, can have all the tactical value of a kill in a respawn-based arena[/quote]
I like your suggestion.
1) How about healers being able to heal enemies, but after they heal much they pacify them turning them permanently into a harmless critter. The problem with this approach is that sometime, the player will get control of their character back.
b1) force player critters to return to their respawn point to be cured.
b2) ask help from their teamates to kill them [suicide] for faster respawn.
b3) ask a priest to dispel them 10 times to cure.
b4) return to normal after 2 min. You just need to hide in a bush or behind a tree.
FLeBlanc
FLeBlanc
You seem to have a thing for hating WoW and thinly dressing that hate up in stupid useless posts masquerading as discussion. Why is this?
hustlerinc
hustlerinc

You seem to have a thing for hating WoW and thinly dressing that hate up in stupid useless posts masquerading as discussion. Why is this?

He hates WoW because he never got any good at it. Never managing to get the enemies health down enough to kill them by using the right combos he wants instant kill spells.
jefferytitan
jefferytitan

I like that since they will able to control enemy emotions. Nice suggestion.
Should everyone be able to do that ? for example buying "Potion of deception" making your hp bar decrease to 10-20% hp after 10 seconds [but it lies].


Sure, although I imagine it would become more used at higher levels because they'd have the gold/mana/whatever to waste on that instead of plain offensive/defensive spells.


You mean charged spells ? if for example a mage gets 5-6 seconds of cast time uninterrupted he deserves to 1shot opponents because they were afk.


Well that too, but I guess I was envisioning the ability to create artefacts which contain a spell. For example a long-lasting shield spell, or a one-shot-kill offensive spell. This would be potentially prone to "farmers", but would also allow warriors to be more successful against mages by purchasing such items. There would be a strategic element due to weight limits, e.g. you could have a crazy arsenal of stuff at your tower, but if you leave your tower you're suddenly more vulnerable.


Seems a great suggestion. From our discussion it seems fair everyone to be able to dodge. But what about counter? should everyone be able to do that? or should it be class specific ? e.g mages counter only spells and warriors counter only melee.


Yeah, probably class specific, it makes sense. Outside of the counter system a warrior could theoretically "counter" a mage by firing an arrow to interrupt their casting. As far as balance goes, you could make it that some spells are "homing" to other magic, so it's harder to hit non-magical classes with them unless they have artefacts on them. Plus you could argue based on old myth that iron weapons/armour have some magic repelling effect.
Acharis
Acharis
Question: why there are no RPGs that use 1 hit 1 dead body mechanic?

Answer one: because no one thought about it before and you are the first
Answer two: because it sux and is abandoned immediately after alpha tests
jefferytitan
jefferytitan
Please people, try not to be too personal here. 1 shot kill doesn't work in many contexts, but let's not totally rule it out as a possibility.

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