[java] The future is java?

Ugh... I hate it when people say stuff like "java is the future."

I personally like java as a programming language. I like it a lot. However, there are things it just can''t do, and there are things that it shouldn''t do.

It looks like it''s very popular already, and still gaining in popularity, for a lot of application domains. And those are areas where the lack of DirectX means nothing at all, simply because DX isn''t useful for much other than games.

Can it do windows programming very well? I mean, is there as much control as there is in C++?

I also heard someone on the boards here mention that a java app that is the same as a C++ app is generally slower. Is that true?

See thread: Future of C++
This question was answered by many people (and in many different ways) there.

"If consquences dictate our course of action, it doesn't matter what's right, it's only wrong if you get caught."
- Tool



Edited by - wayfarerx on October 4, 2001 7:19:27 PM

Java doesn''t do "windows programming". It does have GUI components to build windows style apps. Those things do run much slower, but windows itself isn''t exactly a speed demon, and really, how fast are people clicking these menus?

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people won''t want to learn another language and there isn''t DirectX for Java

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These are the same people who won''t go to Linux because it doesn''t have Office.

If you how what a for,while,if,switch statements are, you are 90% there. The symantics of the language are easy to pick up. Go look at my post in the beginners section


http://www.gamedev.net/community/forums/topic.asp?whichpage=3&pagesize=20&topic_id=62047

Its definitely not going away in the near future, so learning it could only help to pad your resume.

DX6 for Java!

http://www.rolemaker.dk/JWindows/6DX/index.htm

Well, Im taking a Java Class and Im starting to HATE Java.
If ease of use is what ur after, then use VB. Java isnt that much easier than C. The only difference is that Java uses all these prewritten classes to simplify common programming tasks. I find it to be VERY inefficient. Sure on todays systems speed isnt that important, but then again, IT IS! PC games try to be, NEED to be the most efficient of Applications.
So Use C++ for your real games. C++ is a real language, not a mock language such as Java.
Tell me this, if java is really its own language, then why does it use the EXACT same coding structure as C++? Why does it have almost ALL the same identifiers (ofcourse, their names are all changed... const -> final, bool -> boolean and so forth,.. stupid)
Java is a copy of C++, easier, but less efficient. In my opinion, VC++ still kicks Javas ASS and will in the future to come.
You see, REAL programers use REAL languages to make REAL programs. Java is a FREE program that uses (usually) a FREE compiler.
Nothing FREE is good in this world.

ok, Im sorry about the rant. I get caried away sometimes.

Oh, dont use Java for fast games, it will most likely slow your game down.

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Original post by Protricity
Tell me this, if java is really its own language, then why does it use the EXACT same coding structure as C++? Why does it have almost ALL the same identifiers (ofcourse, their names are all changed... const -> final, bool -> boolean and so forth,.. stupid)

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To make the transition from C/C++ to Java easier. And perhaps because it makes sense for a language to have all those identifiers.

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Java is a FREE program that uses (usually) a FREE compiler.
Nothing FREE is good in this world.

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Uh ... no. Linux, BSD, GCC, Mozilla, etc.

Protricity.removeRodFromA**();

I suggest you inform all the fake programmers out in the real world pulling down fat fake paychecks for making fake programs for real businesses that you say that C++ is the best language and that they should use it instead of Java. This is officially the lamest argument against java I have ever heard. Using final instead of const? Come on.

The fanatic is incorruptible: if he kills for an idea, he can just as well get himself killed for one; in either case, tyrant or martyr, he is a monster.
--EM Cioran

Opere Citato

Edited by - javanerd on October 11, 2001 1:51:40 AM

Will java ever be popular for making business-type apps, such as MS Office, or programs like QuickTax (just your average run-of-the-mill windows program)?

Here is my rant:

If you have no idea what you are talking about please don''t post nonsense on the board. Do some research before you start flaming something you have no idea about.

Java is a tool like C++ is a tool, use the right tool for the right job. Funny thing is, Java is becoming the right tool for many jobs (arguable).

Furthermore, Java''s speed to compairable to C++ and in some cases faster. The Java Runtime environment compiles bytecode into binary and not only does it do that but it will optimize the crap out of your code (finds hotspots and optimizes those too). This includes "inlining" etc. It also has garage collection to protect you from memory leaks (if used correctly, remember any idiot can code but not any idiot can code well).

To sum things up, Java is a formidable force in the business world, whether it will take over the game industry or not is debatle. Technology is only part of the draw. At the end of the day, it''s who has the marketing punch to sway the hand in their favor. Go take a look at M$''s "new" technology .NET. It''s a total ripoff of Java, why? you may be asking yourself. Maybe M$ thinks it''s great too.

Oh and if someone is sitting next to Protricity please slap some sense into him, "Nothing FREE is good in this world", that has got to be the most ass backwards statement I have ever heard! Apache/Jakarta the most popular webserver in the world is totally free and open source. Unix/Linux will be around for a long time doing the real work for the millitary and scientist will that expensive OS (or the one you got from your friend) crashes and burns and get''s the crap hacked out of it.

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Original post by bslayerw
At the end of the day, it''s who has the marketing punch to sway the hand in their favor. Go take a look at M$''s "new" technology .NET. It''s a total ripoff of Java

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Please take your own advice and if you don''t know anything about what you''re saying, then do some research first. .NET and Java are two very different things. Perhaps you could say that Java + J2EE + WebSphere + a whole bunch of other disparate technologies is similar to what MS hopes to achieve with .NET. For the average consumer, choosing a 100 different vendors for each task may be OK, but when you''re running a business, it''s always good to be able to have just one vendor who you can call when you have problems or whatever. "Best of breed" is one thing, but not being able to point the finger at someone when something goes wrong is not what most people are looking for.

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Original post by bslayerw
Unix/Linux will be around for a long time doing the real work for the millitary and scientist will that expensive OS (or the one you got from your friend) crashes and burns and get''s the crap hacked out of it.

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The military doesn''t use free unices, they use things like Solaris, which is a hell of a lot more expensive than Windows (especially when you take into account the fact that they usually buy the hardware from Sun, which is also a hell of a lot more expensive than equivalent Intel hardware).

Not saying that "free" is a bad deal, of course, just that that''s a bad example.

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codeka.com - Just click it.

remember Wildtangent, it''s based on JAVA.

Maybe I should have stated that C# (Part of .NET) is a rip off of Java.

Furthermore, if you want to tie yourself to one vendor and get dragged around by the short and curlies then good luck to you and your business. I don''t think I want to rely on one vendor for my bread and butter.

As usual, I head of on a near-unrelated tangent:

Linux Magazine (to which I subscribe) elected to allow Microsoft place an ad in its pages last month (or was that the month before?) They''re still feeling the backlash from the community, with subscribers cancelling and so forth. All because MS advertised in a Linux Magazine. The arguments ranged from "Microsoft would never allow a Linux company to advertize in Windows Magazine" (did you ever think to ask them - I mean before you labelled them the Evil Empire and Bill gates the Antichrist?) to "Microsoft were trying to reach the impressionable uninformed, and LM has just helped them spread their gospel of evil!" Pretty dramatic stuff.

All a crock of shit, of course. Windows is a product, Linux is a product, java is a product, C++ is a product. C# is another product - and a damn fine one, at that. Will any eventually obliterate the others? Not likely, given that COBOL programmers are in dire need now.

The moral of the story? Fanatical techno-cultism doesn''t pay, doesn''t get the job done, and doesn''t profit anyone - not even the proselytizers. So can we all get back to work?

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P.S. The inherent idiocy in a question such as "will java take over the world?" (paraphrased) can only be overlooked for absolute beginner programmers. All others deserve to be excommunicated.

Has everyone overlooked the fact the Java3D API provides wrappers for DX, and OGL for that matter.

Check out
For more info.

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Original post by Protricity
Well, Im taking a Java Class and Im starting to HATE Java.
If ease of use is what ur after, then use VB. Java isnt that much easier than C.

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maybe you should FINISH taking the class before you make comments such as this...

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The only difference is that Java uses all these prewritten classes to simplify common programming tasks. I find it to be VERY inefficient.

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whereas each time you write a C or C++ program you start out with integers and build up from there...

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Sure on todays systems speed isnt that important, but then again, IT IS! PC games try to be, NEED to be the most efficient of Applications. So Use C++ for your real games.

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it depends on what you want... java is as fast as c/c++ in many cases (excluding Windoze apps, mainly)... and it can do 3D and networking, without worrying about what platform the user is running.

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C++ is a real language, not a mock language such as Java.
Tell me this, if java is really its own language, then why does it use the EXACT same coding structure as C++? Why does it have almost ALL the same identifiers (ofcourse, their names are all changed... const -> final, bool -> boolean and so forth,.. stupid)

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hmmm... maybe c/c++ is a rip-off of every other language that came before it, because it uses booleans and integers and floats... do you think before you type?

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Java is a copy of C++, easier, but less efficient. In my opinion, VC++ still kicks Javas ASS and will in the future to come.

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you know what they say, opinions are like [explative deleted], everyone has one... unlike [explative deleted]s, though, some are based on some sort of facts, and others are the fevered dreams of someone who would rather whine than do some research.

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You see, REAL programers use REAL languages to make REAL programs.

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REAL programmers use Assembly.

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Java is a FREE program that uses (usually) a FREE compiler. Nothing FREE is good in this world.

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inhale. exhale. do it again. how much did you pay?

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ok, Im sorry about the rant. I get caried away sometimes.
Oh, dont use Java for fast games, it will most likely slow your game down.

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don't read this post; it will lower your IQ...

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

Edited by - krez on October 15, 2001 8:45:02 PM

Edited by - krez on October 15, 2001 8:47:02 PM

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Original post by bslayerw
Maybe I should have stated that C# (Part of .NET) is a rip off of Java.

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You obviously haven''t read the C# language spec.

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Furthermore, if you want to tie yourself to one vendor and get dragged around by the short and curlies then good luck to you and your business. I don''t think I want to rely on one vendor for my bread and butter.

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If you''re using Java, you''re already tied to a vendor; namely Sun. At least C# and the CLR is submitted to a standards organization, something Sun has refused to do.



"A society without religion is like a crazed psychopath without a loaded .45"

still, i''d rather stick with Sun than Microsoft.

--- krez (krezisback@aol.com)

Fealty to corporations, language fanaticism... please, keep this thread going! It makes for some wonderful entertainment.

Btw, to the individual who said Java uses the exact same coding structure as C++, a little history lesson:

C++ uses the same structure as C (they''re not the same language or even by the same author, but you already knew that, didn''t you?) However, C itself was heavily influenced by its predecessor B . Language design is cumulative; a language designer must, as a matter of necessity, consider all the features and techniques of all the languages that have gone before it so that he/she can incorporate the best set of features to achieve the objective of the new language. All languages are tools, and some tools are better suited to certain tasks than others. You better get used to that if you have any intention of working as a professional software developer (or wage slave programmer. )