What's the best way to look at this? The zoological angle is intuitive, but a real-world ecosystem depends on large numbers and ratios that can be regulated by natural laws. If a bad winter kills 30% of the elk in a forest, those elk don't respawn, and they can't come whine on the forums about the lousy drop rate of digestible material. In order for the player population to grow and shrink in keeping with the popularity of the game, instead of environmental pressures, the metaphor breaks down unless you start thinking about patches and balance changes as the environmental pressures.

In EvE Online, there was a time when ships had to fly a short distance at sub-warp speed before they could activate a warp gate and teleport out of a solar system. A common practice was to sit right at the gate, wait for them to warp in at 15km and kill them before they got in jump range. When the game's warp mechanic was modified to allow warp-in at 0km, those ambush predators effectively went extinct, and were replaced by fast-locking tacklers who would target ships that had jumping into the system rather than those trying to leave. Many long-time pirates were infuriated by this change, but most quickly adapted. I'd say there were more gate campers before teh change, and I'd say that more loot and glory was available for them to share, as well, so that's an example of a change to the game environment influencing the availability of prey and impacting the predator population. Similarly, the "Incursion" type PvE encounter was reduced in value some time last year, drastically reducing the number of high-value PvE ships floating around with their attention focused on something other than their long-range scanners, so the pirates who preyed on them took a big hit there as well, to the point where many were forced to change their play style to survive.

If the game is in constant flux, and a good team of developers is on hand to tweak and poke and meddle with the fundamental game rules in order to gradually find a balance, and the players are entertained enough to stick with the game throughout the process, I think a good game can be had with full loot PvP, but it's a lot of work, throughout the life of the game. The risk of botching it and alienating the whole player base will never go away. Returning to EvE as an example, I played through several patches that I thought broke the game for me. Paradoxically, I was retained due to my strong emotional connection with the most permanent facet of the game, my character skill level. Since skill points (SP) are gained passively over time, there is no "powerlevelling" and my perseverence became its own reward. Even when I found myself penniless, all my ships dust and my bank balance embarrassingly low, I felt pride in having my SP, and was able to find work with corporations who would front me gear and resources in order to gain my service. SP is more a multiplier than anything, since my four-year character might be 10% more effective than a three-year-old, or 50% more effective than a one-year-old. Day-to-day it doesn't define you or dictate your abilities as much as gear or--ideally--player support will, but if you have a massive, expensive command ship, a player who is certified to fly it and also gets a 12% boost to its output is a huge asset.

So give players some core kernel of merit or worth, something that cannot be taken from them but doesn't totally dictate their practical capabilities, so even when they're broke and lonely they don't feel like they're back to square one. Then put just the right emphasis on obtaining and protecting the more ephemeral assets that determine their actual performance, then throw in some vanity items than can be coveted, then playtest, playtest, playtest.

I'm talking about these sandbox mmorpg's that have open pvp + full loot.. NOT like darkfall online.. that's a pvp mmo.. not sandbox.
PKs (wolfs) need sheep (miners, PvMers etc) to kill.. It's what they enjoy.

<...>

So is there any hope for the niche PK playerbase?

They are still possible. I've played one such project. But before I tell you about it I want to say something about your sheep vs wolfes discussion.

Firstly, gank pvp isn't less honest or more honest than duel pvp. It is just another. Generally, this is just the same "honest duel" pvp with the additional ability to gain tactical advantage over your enemy. This ability is available for both players, so there is nothing dishonest here.

Secondly, almost any pvp in open world becomes gank pvp because there is lots of possibilities to gain tactical advantage over your enemy (compared to duel pvp).

So, let me make an example.

Boring casual mmo with safe PvE and arena duel PvP:
Two guys grind in safe pve areas for months (unacceptably boring for pvp player), than enter small pvp area (arena) and have some boring "honest pvp".

Not boring open-world, single-world, hardcore, pvp, rvr mmo as I played:

I'm a 50 lvl guy and I need to exp in 50 lvl guys area (while lvl cap is 75). There is no teleports so I need to go on feet. First I go through low lvl locations and kill some newbs not attentive enough on my way. Then I go though hi lvl location and avoid pvp with big guys (or try to kill them if I have some mates with me). Then I get into designated location. Lets' count I'm alone. I start grinding and soon notice enemy 50 lvl guy doing the same - grinding. Sure I'm gonna kill him, but how? Straitforward duel pvp with the same lvl guy is 50/50 and I can't risk that much. I wait till proper moment, gain tactical advantage (first shots, controls, backstabs etc) and kill him. Now I'm alone. But I know that this guy will be in 5 minutes here and he knows that I'm here. Roles changed, now I'm a prey. I have to prepare myself for counter-gank. 5 minutes passes. Enemy guy is here. I grind attentively thus destroying his tactical advantage, see hem approaching we fight in same conditions and have duel situation. I defeat him in duel pvp with 50 hp left and go on grinding.
Gank, counter-gank - more complicated than duel, but absolutely honest. Hunter and prey roles can change in milliseconds

Ah, this amazing feel of danger everywhere... you'r on adrenaline even if there are no enemy near you.

Alright, now about a the game. It was I project born from lineage 2 free shard. It was reworked so hard that it can be named independent game (as lineage-based Shaiya online), so no jokes about sh!tty L2 freeshards please

Principles were quite easy. Race vs race (5 races, so 80% of server population are enemies), conquering and control over territories through the system of guarded towns and outposts. Some easy grind (sure no stupid korean grind) and pve activities like bosses, so all people must be outdoors on some pve activities. Monster respawn is long and moster-populated sites are small, so you need to roam over big territory to gain exp. Sure you meet another such guys and if they are from opposite race, you have pvp. You have pvp alot - just exit the town - with lower lvls (bang, bang, bang, dead bodies!), with higher lvls (omg omg I've escaped, I'm alive!), gank type and duel type with your lvls, small group vs small group, one vs small group and vice versa. Ganking a duo a trio of enemies of same lvl alone was the greatest pleasure
Partial drop (no full drop but clothes and arms are kinda disposable, no super clothes or guns giving advantage), ability to steal cash from dead bodies (so keep them in warehouse).

Project I'm speaking about is dead now (well, it isn't shut down but it mutated into second Lineage 2 with all its korean grind and madness), second such project from another russian guys is on the way. But it will fail too coz it is developed by stupid L2 admins.

Main thing I want to say that it isn't that hard to attach a very good pvp gameplay mechanics to old client and server. My examples show that it is absolutely real goal for a good lineage 2 freeshard server team.
The problem is that there are few able guys among l2 server admins (all able guys gone to big companies ).

Maybe I'l make a separate topic about the game I've described here some day...

[quote name='aattss' timestamp='1350519875' post='4991291']
Also, we're supposed to be brainstorming ways to make this work, not saying it won't work. At minimum, you should describe why it won't work, and listen to people as they take your advice and see if they can use it to come up with a solution.

Read the thread. Theres a number of solutions, which can collectively be summed up as

'Make the life of a wolf very, very hard'.

However, when you do that wannabe wolves whine that their preferred playstyle of making other paying customers victims isnt being respected.

Wannabe wolves want all the reward, and none of the risk. They want all the benefits of being a sheep when they feel like that, and to be able to put on wolves clothing when they feel like that (note the popularity of "PvE alts" to fund PvP).

So, you either make everyone a wolf - World of Tanks - or you make being a victim voluntary - PvP flags/zones.

Either solution doesnt give wannabe wolves their stream of victims, so they come to threads like this and whine.
[/quote]

Err... you're missing the point. The problem is that we're supposed to brainstorm alternate solutions. Try to think of how to solve those problems or at least provide helpful ideas.

[quote name='aattss' timestamp='1350519875' post='4991291']
At minimum, you should describe why it won't work, and listen to people as they take your advice and see if they can use it to come up with a solution.

No solution will work when your 'wolves' are the same people who will abuse log outs and alternate accounts to avoid any consequences for their actions.
[/quote]

Well, how would you try to solve that? Try to find a way to solve that problem.

We aren't here to say this can't be done. We're here to think and attempt to talk with other people in order to learn more about how and why everything works. We're not here to limit ourselves and our thinking and ideas.

Just to make it really, really clear, the OP said what he wanted

"PKs (wolfs) need sheep (miners, PvMers etc) to kill.. It's what they enjoy."

In that case, I'd suggest the best solution is for the PKs to be contributing around, say, $10 an hour to each of the PvMers, so the PvMers can be compensated for not doing what they like, which is PvM, so the PKers can do what they like.

This might actually be a good idea.

PKers : Pay a subscription to unlock the ability to PK. Or buy "PK time" from cash shop to go into PK mode.
PvMers : Use the subscription from PKers to entice PvMers to stick their necks out. E.g. drop cash shop credits in loot.

Plenty of people will waste time running out to gather cash shop credits for profit. Then PKers can go kill them.

Heheh, that's interesting. The wolf could offer a set of items from his inventory to reward the last sheep standing. With prices coming from the PK's own pocket, and the game controlling rewards, cheating should be reduced. Sheeps can subscribe to the man-hunt by talking to the PK, and when the race starts the wolf will be frozen for a few seconds to give sheeps some advantage.

The problem is within the concept itself. Who would ever want to be the sheep that is hunted by wolves?

The opening post clearly describes that being the wolves should be a PK-role, not only one side of a balanced pvp situation. If the sheep gets a specific role withing the confrontation for example by giving the sheep abilities to escape or making the sheep agree to a hide and seek game, its not the same as if the sheep wants to do something else like mining and is surprisingly ambushed.

A PK requires victims, real victims. It also requires the amount of sheeps to be >>> the amount of wolves. Why should a majority of people want to play the sheep for a low number of wolves? I don't think a concept like that would ever work.

Maybe it gets more interesting when the wolve is not the topmost of the games food chain. Let's add humans.

Example:

• Players can kill each other
  
• Killing players give the PK an 'outcast' status ( he becomes the wolve )
  
• Wolves can't enter cities and use other parts of the game anymore, that keeps the amount of wolves small
  
• Hunting wolves gives a nice reward for humans
  
• Whenever the amount of wolves increase, humans have increased motivation to hunt them down and make the land save again, so sheep can go sheeping again
  
  -> PKs can have the 'hunt' and still be a minority in a world of not-PKs. The possibility to play the wolves is "paid" by being the outcast and thus having other disadvantages.

I just got my site online at www.topiaonline.com .

This game will probably satiate your desire for open PvP / full loot sandbox once it's released. ;-)
Contact me at joshrmt@gmail.com if the feature list excites you and you want to stay up to date on the game's progress.

The problem is within the concept itself. Who would ever want to be the sheep that is hunted by wolves?

<...>

1) Well, there is no PK's in PvP games. They exist in PvE games only.

If you speak about griefing players in PvE game, PK is a scum, yeah.
If you speak about PvP game where you can put enemy in a prey position gaining tactical advantage - PK is a noble PvPer.

2) About your "nobody wants to bo a sheep". The problem is that there are PvEers and PvPers. PvEers ARE sheep even if they play such game where they can be never killed. Because "being a sheep" means unability or disinclination to protect yourself and your assets from another players.

So the main problem for current PvPers that the vast majority of games are created for casuals, PvEers, school kids and so on, and there is no decent pvp in such games - only arenas, battlegrounds and duels, which are just poor excuse compared to free open-world pvp.

A) Players engaging in non-consensual PvP ("Wolves") open themselves up to permadeath situations, or at the very least increased corpse looting and loss due to death.

Permadeath is interesting. But unfortunately not really viable, and the same goes for all attempts at in-game penalites or debuffs for the attacking PKer.

Because PKers can always have another character that is lawful. Jail time, and he can play his farmer, Debuffed for awhile, np.. he can just play his other character.
Not allowed to go to town to buy stuff? NP, his other character can do it for him.
Players will buy multiple accounts to make this happen, play lawfully untill their character is maxed out and start killing anything that moves just because they can.

As a veteran of old UO, Shadowbane and Darkfall ive given this whole thing quite a bit of thought, and I think ive got the solution.


The MMO would need to be level based, and have leveling zones all the way to max level that had no PVP in them.
Any character can play to max lvl in complete safety.
However, progressing at end game would require characters to enter the "wild lands", a lawless territory where they can be attacked by anyone at any time, but the only land where they can progress their character and build towns and cities by pooling their resources.

Now before anyone says: Well this is Zone based PVP (alá RvR) all over again, no its not. Because I am actually forcing everyone into the wildlands, IF they want to progress their character, I'm just doing it at a much later lvl then say the moonstone in Moonglow.

By the time the player reaches max lvl (lets say lvl 50) they are well versed in the game and probably have a guild behind them, with full knowledge of what awaits them and probably some, if not quite a lot of pvp experience.

With the city building system the intention is to move the player into the wildlands as he becomes bound to whatever player town or city he choses to join, making the players emotionally invested in their own areas. Encouraging them to protect them and patrol them, and promote good, yet still non-consensual, pvp.

-Exo

Permadeath is interesting. But unfortunately not really viable, and the same goes for all attempts at in-game penalites or debuffs for the attacking PKer.

/looks at the topic name/There is no PK's in free pvp sandbox games. So there can be no penalty for something which doesn't exist.
Permadeath - it is too severe. Because in pvp game you die alot and heavy penalty will interrupt ingame life (ever-lasting battle, coz this is pvp game, better to say) severely. For example there is full loot in EVE, but ships and modules are mostly cheap, and you may die 5-10 times a day

The MMO would need to be level based, and have leveling zones all the way to max level that had no PVP in them.
Any character can play to max lvl in complete safety.
However, progressing at end game would require characters to enter the "wild lands", a lawless territory where they can be attacked by anyone at any time, but the only land where they can progress their character and build towns and cities by pooling their resources.

This game is casual and carebear like any other casual mmo. Free PvP game starts from big open world without any carebear hideouts.