Just a thought ...

So what is the build? Would you agree its a set of values x1, x2, x3 .... that produces additional value Y1, Y2... /and so on/

thanks to "synergy" among xs? Thus it makes character stronger as Ys occurs?

But then the characters that are no build are naturally not balanced against the builds.. Should be "no builds" balanced to each other? Maybe that is important for the newbie level players.

How about balancing the system with builds possible. Should then be all the builds identified and make the balancing to each other? Even if done (caping Ys or make them logaritmic - artificially or by perfect design).Would not be the fun of experimenting and searching the build worn off?

I think partially yes, but what could it brought is character build design to counter the other build minimasing its Ys or so. Is it necessary to make this always possible (each build have their counter) to make the creation of the build conditioned by some weak Xs?

How would an absolute balance even be possible? If one class can run faster and dodge a higher % of incoming damage, but their own attacks don't hit very hard, how would you have an absolute balance between that class and the slower, harder-hitting class?

thx for the reaction, I dont find the case difficult to balance...

lets assume for the simplification they both have same life pool (if not the damage of the opposal character would be adjusted by their life ratio) and are meelee (now the range and movement speed would play a role). So than all you need is to carry about is DPS. Oh the faster character has a dodge x% ? Not a problem that mean his life pool should be taken as adjusted by 1/(1-x/100) and therefore the damage of the slow character rises based on the life ratio.

For a measurement how the system is doing I think it would be nice to construct a probability density curve based on the survival's % rest life. On left from the center there can the fast guy on the right there can be the slow guy. So from the measurement the variable would be 0 to 100%. And over it (as a Y axis) occurence(occurence/number of tests =probability). Balanced system should have same weight under the curves (fast guy's curve and slow guy's curve). And those systems that that have lots of density or occurence close to zero are race to death systems.

So what is the build?

it makes character stronger

no build are naturally not balanced against the builds

obviously.

Should be "no builds" balanced to each other? Maybe that is important for the newbie level players.

games should always attempt to provide the "correct" level of challenge (AND reward) to the player. not too easy, not too hard. not too stingy, not too monty haul.

this is irrespective of how powerful the player has become in the game (or hasn't yet).

Should then be all the builds identified and make the balancing to each other?

there should be no dominant strategy. if there is, then the non-dominant strategies are meaningless features.

Would not be the fun of experimenting and searching the build worn off?

no dominant strategy just means don't make any one path too powerful with respect to others. the joy of exploring all "paths to glory" will be unaffected by this, if its done correctly.

Is it necessary to make this always possible (each build have their counter)

absolutely not!

its just an easy was to introduce combined arms tactics into the situation. each unit has its counter, and in turn can counter some third type of unit. like rock-paper-scissors,

you can't win all the time with just one unit type. In an RTS type situation, this provides incentive for unit diversification. In an RPG type situation, it provides incentive for co-operation between different character types and party member diversification in general.

thx for the reaction, I dont find the case difficult to balance...

lets assume for the simplification they both have same life pool (if not the damage of the opposal character would be adjusted by their life ratio) and are meelee (now the range and movement speed would play a role). So than all you need is to carry about is DPS. Oh the faster character has a dodge x% ? Not a problem that mean his life pool should be taken as adjusted by 1/(1-x/100) and therefore the damage of the slow character rises based on the life ratio.

For a measurement how the system is doing I think it would be nice to construct a probability density curve based on the survival's % rest life. On left from the center there can the fast guy on the right there can be the slow guy. So from the measurement the variable would be 0 to 100%. And over it (as a Y axis) occurence(occurence/number of tests =probability). Balanced system should have same weight under the curves (fast guy's curve and slow guy's curve). And those systems that that have lots of density or occurence close to zero are race to death systems.

Well, what if as an opponent we have a mage, whose spellcasting is delayed when he is hit. Then, the faster-attacking class would have an advantage against the mage even if it's balanced with the slower class according to your math.

Or, if any one of these three classes can kill monsters faster, they can earn money faster than the other two classes and they are thus economically unbalanced even if they are balanced in combat.

So what is the build? Would you agree its a set of values x1, x2, x3 .... that produces additional value Y1, Y2... /and so on/
... But then the characters that are no build are naturally not balanced against the builds.. Should be "no builds" balanced to each other? ... but what could it brought is character build design to counter the other build minimasing its Ys or so.

I'm familiar with one meaning of the term "build" in the game industry, but I'm unfamiliar with the meaning of the term "build" in this context. Can someone enlighten me?

Sunandshadow wrote:

Well, what if as an opponent we have a mage, whose spellcasting is delayed when he is hit. Then, the faster-attacking class would have an advantage against the mage even if it's balanced with the slower class according to your math.

Still its DPS so the fast guy could be more sensitive to magic (worse armour accesible). Higher DPS characters against environment- first all they can get for their money is caped. 2 nd for example poison can raise they death ratio against environment as their are naturally lower life pool.

I think that stun is interesting stuff. Excuse me that I will put it to the previous comment.

-sorry I cannot get to it untill Monday...

So what is the build? Would you agree its a set of values x1, x2, x3 .... that produces additional value Y1, Y2... /and so on/
... But then the characters that are no build are naturally not balanced against the builds.. Should be "no builds" balanced to each other? ... but what could it brought is character build design to counter the other build minimasing its Ys or so.

I'm familiar with one meaning of the term "build" in the game industry, but I'm unfamiliar with the meaning of the term "build" in this context. Can someone enlighten me?

In an RPG with stat and ability points, build refers to the pattern of spending those points, resulting is a character that is very effective for some specific task (tanking, healing, dps, soloing, stealth), though possibly ineffective at other tasks. Gear that gives stats can also be included in builds. There are usually one or two agreed upon "best builds" per class in a game with predetermined classes. It's common that a fighter class can be built as a tank (all points in defense, health, and aggro) or a dps (all points into attack). It's common that a magic class can be built as a healer or a dps. A pet-user class is by default a hybrid specialized for soloing, by they can be pushed more toward attack or defense. Build is important to how well a character can fill a team role in either a dungeon party or team pvp.

In an RPG with stat and ability points, build refers to the pattern of spending those points, resulting is a character that is very effective for some specific task (tanking, healing, dps, soloing, stealth), though possibly ineffective at other tasks. Gear that gives stats can also be included in builds. There are usually one or two agreed upon "best builds" per class in a game with predetermined classes.

Cool, thanks! I learn something new every day (actually, several somethings new).

In an RPG with stat and ability points, build refers to the pattern of spending those points, resulting is a character that is very effective for some specific task (tanking, healing, dps, soloing, stealth), though possibly ineffective at other tasks. Gear that gives stats can also be included in builds. There are usually one or two agreed upon "best builds" per class in a game with predetermined classes.

Cool, thanks! I learn something new every day (actually, several somethings new).

Always fun to discover something new about game design. :) One thing I forgot to mention is that builds are not limited to MMOs and wRPGs/rogue-likes, but can also occur in pokemon-like games, tactical combat games and racing games. Any game where the player can customize units or vehicles for particular combat roles, driving styles, or combat/race conditions. An edge case would be building a deck in a CCG/TCG, or a game like FF7 where the materia equipped onto a character customizes their abilities; these might not be considered builds because they are easy to change. Builds are a major strategic point in MMOs and as part of the strategy it is usually made impossible or difficult to reset a character's build; players are encouraged to make a new character instead. (I'm not personally a fan of this, but oh well.)