I'm not good enough, now what?

Could you do anything profitable with the engine as-is and plow some of the profits back into finishing it?

I apologize if this is longwinded. It has to be longwinded because I am constantly berated with anti-mmo propaganda every time I post and treated like a noob. Am I a noob: probably. Do the other noobs actually have an RPG engine, no. Do the other noobs actually have an engine that is currently in use in a commercial MMORPG: No. Do the other noobs have full rights to the source code: no. So, please, do not make me post ANOTHER of these longwinded threads with YET MORE disclaimers again.

First off, let me say that this is not another MMO thread. I have an engine, I have an AI toolkit, I have a replacement renderer that's faster than one from the multimillion dollar company that made the engine and it held a world record. (Admittedly, not for very long, world records are very competitive). I have procedural generators for a lot of things (nothing modern for scenery, but indoors should be doable via extrusion/csg and I have a paper that if implemented should help with that[estimate, one week to code, 6 weeks to debug, it's a simple algorithm]).
When I last posted the engine I had wasn't being used. Now, two years later, it is actually powering an MMO. It had already been used in several titles the highest budget one of which was just over 3 million, if I'm recalling correctly. It should (without the pieces I have, of which the utility is unproven) be completable with 1 year from a person with over 12 years (absolute minimum) of game development experience, though 20 would be more likely.
The sad thing is... I have this amazing engine that I have no hope of attaining the skill to complete within the next decade. It's modern and up to date now. It's over-engineered for any task other than RPG's and is not suitable for an FPS. (If you want an FPS, I honestly just recommend cryengine, if you want an MMOFPS, I just recommend crying.)

MMOFPS with either Cryengine or Unreal: the profit margin is too slim.
MMOFPS on your own: people nowadays expect Crysis or Unreal level graphics.

I'm a realist, I'm a pragmatist, and that's causing me two problems.

One: I have this engine, if I don't use it that's a wasted resource. It represents hundreds of thousands of dollars of developer time. (Before those of you chime in 'oh that poor developer', it was funded and the copyright is owned by a company. You could download the engine today... all you have to do is recognize it's greatness[amongst all the thousands of junk engines], find it, and actually posess the skill to use it. Good luck.) The license, however, is irrevocable and grants me every permission I could ever need/want. Including the right to restrict others from doing the same should I provide it to them, so... not GPL.)

Two: Considering my skill and the economy, developing a game is rather impractical. While I am most of the way through a degree in computer science, I'm nowhere near a game developer, am not in the game development curriculum, and I actually hope to get a rather mild-mannered job as a UI programmer someday. Give me a regular 9-5.

Anyway, back when I was a noob, I, like everyone, got bit by the MMO bug. As I still considered it impractical, I did not start developing an MMO, I, instead, logged hundreds of hours on the internet scouring it for every thing I could possibly need to complete the one engine I could find that I felt had hope. (I found the disc recently, not sure where I put it, guess I should look for it again). My goal was to enable a single person, without assistance, to create an MMO. (Except for world models, though I do have a procedural human generator that, when combined with something else, might not even require artists.) The sad fact is that while a single person could do it with the completed engine, the last piece that takes it from 'a team' to 'one person' was never completed... and will never be. The original developer was good enough, but I doubt anyone else will be capable.

I have multiple choices for SSAO shaders of varying optimizations as well as a genetic shader generator.

Now what? Honestly, I just want to see this engine finished and in my hands. Now that it is proven, it is more important than ever to me that I have the finished version of the engine. I don't care if any of my 'pieces' are added, honestly, I'd rather have the simple completed engine that exists now... the one from the MMO... but that isn't available to me anymore as the company that created it is no longer releasing new versions of the engine. (A change in management).

Please do not ask me to post the engine, others are pursuing it's open source completion, and I leave that to them, I am looking into different routes, while I would love an open source solution, based upon their results it is unlikely/impossible. There are plenty of other great engines... (maybe) if I did not have this one and could not stand closed source I would likely look at http://g3d.sourceforge.net It has been used 4 times professionally, though I only know of Titan's Quest. Most people lack the skill to complete the engine and will likely not understand what it is capable of. The FPS programmers I have shown it to called it overengineered, while the game programming grad students I have shown it to were impressed but are busy with other projects [Also called: a paycheck, though one guy is trying to complete it... but he's not sharing and I didn't give him the engine anyway. Ironically, he almost tanked a company last time he tried to finish a previous version of the game enigne and they both died... it had a design flaw he was unaware of]. The engine is 1 year from completion by the original author and anyone capable of taking his place would need to be solvent for a year and VERY capable. In short: they would be fictional in this economy.

So... how do I get the engine completed. Please save whether or not it should be as well as trolling/spamming me for another thread. (Feel free to link), this post is simply... how would you get the engine completed.

No nonconstructive posts please. I, honestly, believe it would be more useful for me to write a novel, as that is where most of my talent lies. That said, this is likely the closest I will be to such an engine for many years and it's currently being used. It's no longer just a theory, the finished engine works... and it works well. I... only have most of the years of work that went into it. So, any ideas on how I can get it to completion..

Yes, I realize I can't make an MMO with just an engine. That doesn't change the fact that I want the engine and am not good enough to finish it myself. Yes, it is multithreaded and multicore. Yes, it is portable. Yes, it is professional. No, you will not be able to use it by yourself even if you finish it, it is a professional engine designed for an AA pipeline, it doesn't even have a blender importer (there was either a Maya and/or a 3ds max importer, but I don't think I have that). Actually, the fact that it is a professional engine is likely why open source authors/coders haven't picked up on it. Why complete an engine when you'll need to find a team (who likely won't work for free) to use it.

And finally, no, the engine I have is not better than Elder Scrolls, Warcraft, [Insert RPG with budget of millions here]. Actually, being multicore helps a game engine surprisingly little as the bottleneck is usually the GPU.

Please, if you have any ideas. I've tried talking with companies(only smaller ones, bigger ones are too difficult to communicate with), they seem interested, but want 'exclusive collateral' to drum up investment basically meaning they want something only they own. That's fine... but I suspect that it would be the engine, and that's not someting I'm prepared to allow. (My only reason for talking to them is to get the engine finished). They're after money, I'm thousands of dollars in debt from college, and would rather have the engine.

I have also considered a kickstarter to drum up the $200,000k+ to pay the few programmers capable of finishing the engine (who are also capable of writing said engine from scratch) to work for a year. I think, in all my searching, I found 3 such programmers... one is making his own game.

I"ve also considered other methods of developing smaller games to pay for the engine. (Simple games) That, and the writing, are the two I am pursuing directly, though my own completion rate is staggeringly low.

This is specifically about the engine, NOT about developing an MMO. The engine is perfectly suitable for a single player RPG and has been used in multiple single-player commercial titles and only one MMO, if anything it is MORE suitable for a single player RPG.

So... what can be done to get this engine finished?

I am honestly a bit confused as to what it is that you really want to do. From my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) is that you found an engine, added some pieces on your own, and now want to "finish" the engine you found so that you ... have it?

I am not entirely sure what the point is of an engine without a game.

You mentioned lacking the skills to finish this engine, that you are not near being a game developer, and that you are still in school.

I understand that this is not the advice that you want but it is what I feel compelled to give: Finish school, and work on the engine in the context of making a game.

If you say that you are not good enough then the practical advice is to get better. The real truths are that this amazing engine will be obsolete in a couple years if it is not already. Engines are also means to an end and that end is to make a game. If you are not making a game then I fail to see what use the engine will be to you. Also working on the engine in the context of making a game will help ensure the features you add and the improvements you make are things that actually help to produce a game.

So yes I do understand that you want this engine, and that your goal is to get this engine in your hands. Your best bet of that ever happening is to make smaller games to build experience, assemble a team of like minded people once you have the experience to lead them properly, and work to get the engine complete. Right now however it does not sound like you are currently in the position to achieve this objective because you need the experience to know what features to finish adding. You really can only create a good engine by fully understanding how games are created and what features are actually useful.

I also believe that the concept of one person making an MMO is not wise because a world with only one voice is a lonely place. MMOs are big worlds... and these worlds need lots of creative voices to fill them up. There are benefits to building off of the creative energies of others and to polish ideas through teamwork. In a game development team those around you are not drones but partners to help you burn through the fluff so that you end up with a game worth playing and an engine worth using.

This is just my pragmatic advice .

Good luck!

Hire someone ;)

If you can't afford that, register a company and pay in shares. You'll have to work on a good pitch to convince people that the results of the work will be as valuable as you say, so that people believe there's enough value in the shares.

Alternatively, you can make that pitch to a bank or to venture capitalists, explaining your current assets, and your business plan to start making money from them, and then use their invested money to hire staff.

Once this work has been completed, how to you plan to profit from it?

What kind of license do you have for the existing parts of the engine? Can you re-licence it to others / are you allowed to build your own engine product from it? Are you allowed to make one, or many games, and for one or many platforms?

[edit] On a personal note, all the secrecy / leaving out details, the strangely specific statements about the amount of work ("completable with 1 year from a person with over 12 years (absolute minimum) experience"), that it's designed for a AAA-pipeline yet doesn't have a Max/Maya importer, that you mention strange irrelevant details like a particular effect (SSAO), and that it's apparently worth $100k+ and was mysteriously licensed to a guy with zero money, all combine to set off alarm bells. Even if you are totally legit, I can understand why you're not getting helpful responses...

I'd suggest starting by hiring an experienced programmer for a short term, not to work on the engine, but to help you evaluate what you have and to develop a plan for what work needs to be done.

I am posting again because I read your previous thread from 2012 and it asked almost identical questions.

I get the impression that you have a lot of dreams of making a game and that you are largely an idea guy. You apparently seem to believe that by keeping your engine secret that it is your best shot at encouraging people to work on it. I presume that once finished your goal is to use this completed engine to entice others to then work on your game project.

I could be wrong in these assumptions but it is what I have gathered from your posts so far.

It really sounds like you are trying to run without learning to crawl. Game development is something that takes years of time and everyone (at least in my experience) has to pay their dues. You really need to take several hundred steps back and get down to basics if you want to ever reach your dreams. The best advice for you is to forget the engine, make some simple 2D games, and work your way up learning as you go. You will learn how things work, gain a portfolio of finished projects to attract people, and you will eventually get there.

You are not a noob, but you appear to be a beginner. This is where you can begin, but you need to be willing to take well intentioned advice. I also hate to be harsh but I would not type all of this and waste time if I did not feel that this advice was helpful to you. While it might not be what you want to hear, it is what you need to hear.

It's hard to understand what your story is. You love to use these parentheses (you know, like this), which distracts from the main point (that you are trying to tell us, not that it's a bad thing, but, you get the idea). Please stop doing that when writing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, did you say your engine have been used several times, and one of them by a big-budget MMO? Why did you not charge any fees?

You can't expect for people to pay up $200K for an unfinished engine, for the following reasons:

1. That's a lot of money for an engine that they are barely familiar with. Remember, your target audience here are developers, not consumers. That's already a very narrow market. You are less likely to amass that amount of money. Most likely, they would prefer for you to open source it.

2. You can't just hire developers and expect them to understand your engine inside out right off the bat. They would need time to understand what's going on with your engine, and with their limited knowledge of your engine, you can't expect them to be able to finish it at the speed you'd be happy with.

At this point in time, YOU are the only person who knows the engine. I would suggest that you focus 100% on completing it, even if progress is slow.

Nothing has really changed since you asked this in 2012, except that some professional developer with an actual budget has made a game with a different version of the engine you don't have access to.

I'd have to repeat the same advice I gave then: this incomplete -- and apparently incomplete-able (at least by you) -- engine is just a waste of time, and if you want to be productive you should really just forget all about it and start out with a normal learning process like everyone else.

Also, no programmer is such an un-replaceable genius as you seem to think the original developer of your engine is. Either they've over sold their abilities to you or you've overly inflated them in your own mind. There is pretty much no chance there work is as impossible to replicate as you seem to think, and it's almost certain a couple of skilled developers (potentially even people with less than 8 years experience!) could produce something modern, just as capable, and more complete with a couple of years work. When you say that "nothing can replace" your engine you are absolutely, definitely with 100% certainty, typed in capital letters for emphasis WRONG. There is no engine that couldn't be replicated with sufficient time and effort, and although that may be beyond your own capabilities, skilled developers could probably do so with less time and effort than you seem to think.

Let it go, you're wasting your time by chasing a fools errand instead of getting real work done like everyone else. Start learning a programming language -- or pick up Game Maker -- and make your platform game. If you stop wasting your time and put your efforts into learning and develop it you could create a great platformer within a year.

Digital industry is like life, it will sqeeze something good out of any loser. Keep breathing

Edit: My post didn't... well... post...

I haven't read your previous posts, but it sounds like you're a beginner, forgive me if I've got the wrong impression.

So, you've managed to get hold of an engine that you can't yet use and can't complete, is that correct? That's quite clearly a dead-end for the time being at least. If you want to want to encourage someone to help you're going to have to either front up a lot of cash - which you say you don't have, have a track-record to prove you're worth working with - which if you do have you're being very quiet about, or be an orator an a par with Caesar... Don't be afraid of the "flipping burgers" route, I'd wager the majority of people here have had to do something equally menial as a way of supporting themselves at some stage, I know I certainly have. You're discussing development as a career, right? In that case you have to put survival first and the wonderful dreams about what you want to achieve second, unfortunately.

The point is you need to evaluate what you're capable of producing right now, and if you're not yet able to complete this engine that you want to use then do something else useful until you are. Improve your skills, work on a much (much much) smaller project and see what interest you can get with that, and so on.

Your best bet of that ever happening is to make smaller games to build experience, assemble a team of like minded people once you have the experience to lead them properly, and work to get the engine complete.

Many people I know have taken the approach you describe and failed utterly. Some of them still struggle to this day. Look up Radu Privantu. Additionally, like minded people with the skill won't do it for free, so it's the same, I'll still have to earn the money.
Also, the economy is going to get worse (it will not rebound) if I'm going to do it, I had better hurry.

I hate to be rude, but you fail to see the forest for the trees here.

Many people fail at all sorts of things. It is not the failure that you need to focus on. Giving up is the most sure fire way to never accomplish your dreams and goals.

You said "Look up Radu Privantu" so here is some advice from him:

A. I have a tip for those starting their own MMORPG: Unless you are really experienced, and have an artist, you should start writing a MUD server first. Mud servers require considerably less work than an MMORPG, and no art at all (well, except maybe for some ASCII art). Only after you finish this MUD server think about starting making an MMORPG. And if you are not a programmer, don't even think of starting working at an MMORPG until you at least STUDY some programming books and become familiar with a programming language, such as C/C++. This is because otherwise no one will take you seriously (there are, after all, many people with great ideas; the hard thing is implementing them)

~ http://www.gamedev.net/topic/301023-interview-with-radu-privantu-aka-raduprv-creator-of-eternal-lands/

Starting with small games so that you learn what you are doing is THE path to learn game programming and game design. It is foolish to expect a master piece the first time you put brush to canvas!

If you feel you must "hurry" with game development then I guarantee that you WILL fail. You personally need many years of experience still before you can even handle managing this project.

I could make some company a million dollars, but I can't do anything for my self. Deja-vu. I didn't solve this problem last time either.

No... You can't make a company a million dollars with what you have right now. Every financially stable company I know of would not even consider talking about your engine for fear that they could get sued by you if they happened to somehow make something that you thought was similar to what you showed them (assuming there is something worth taking).

You don't "solve" this problem. The problem isn't one that you have. It is not that you can make a company a million dollars, it is that you really have nothing to offer them right now.

Finishing school isn't an option, financially.

If you do not have money to invest in your education, then you do not have the money to invest in an MMORPG. You are far better off focusing on how to finish your education.

Let me finish with an analogy:

I could have the best cameras on the market and I could have the best film editing software in the world, but that does not mean that I will create a film that people will want to watch. Having the tools does not equate to being able to use them. It is not the tools that make the project, but the developers. It is the same logic that wearing the same shoes as a pro basketball player does not mean you will be good at basketball.

Here is something you should watch that I feel illustrates this point:

https://vimeo.com/70748579

Edit:

Here are my steps for success for you:

1. Work at a job and save money or take loans so that you can finish school.

2. Work on small games and projects so that you develop experience.

3. Build a showcase of completed small games and projects

4. If you are lucky start being good enough to make money off of these projects (although that is not a guarantee)

5. Eventually get the skills required to make the MMORPG game that you want to make

6. Spend years of your life working on it.

There are no shortcuts, so stop looking for them.

Best of luck.