[4X space] Research (discussion)

A tech tree is absolutely essential for research, it's how research works!

No one could possibly sit in a medieval workshop and build an Apple I, it's just impossible.

The same will always apply, there are always pre-requisit technologies for every technological advance. You can't have an electric motor with electricity.

Just because the science has moved on, does not make the fundamentals of scientific research disappear.

I always liked the way Alien Legacy Handled research.

You'd discover items or encounter events that would unlock research topics each topic had a cost in the six different science fields. Once you paid that cost it would take a period of time before you received the results of the research.

For example your settlers might have found unusual mushrooms growing near their new settlement. It cost 50 biology points, and 25 chemistry points to research the mushrooms and they result is you can now build advanced hydroponics chambers giving you more food per turn.

A rare crystal you find while exploring a moon might let you finally unlock phaser technology for your ships.

Discovering and researching Naqudria might allow you to produce hyper space engines small enough to fit on fighters.

It was good because your exploring and events shaped your research paths and technologies you unlocked.

One game I played I think it was War Of The worlds required the enemy to use technology against you before you can research things. For instance before you could research air filters your enemy had to start using bio weapons against you.

A tech tree is absolutely essential for research, it's how research works!

No one could possibly sit in a medieval workshop and build an Apple I, it's just impossible.

The same will always apply, there are always pre-requisit technologies for every technological advance. You can't have an electric motor with electricity.

You meant "research unlocks another research"? But it does not need to be a "tree", categories (MOO2) or "circles" (Beyond the Earth) serves the same purpose.

BTW, I have noticed the tech tree is rarely used in modern games, they move out of it (or mix it with other techniques like in StarDrive they have separate categotries each consisting of a small tech tree).

I always liked the way Alien Legacy Handled research.

Yeah, or in Reunion. But it was an adventure like system, not sure you could use it in a typical 4X... I mean it was fun to play the first time, but the replayability...

I'm currently developing a medieval/fantasy 4X game and I started asking the same questions as you did. I also felt I wanted something different than the bland tech tree that a lot of games offer. I came up with the following system:

I personally like technology to be based on the society/culture of an empire and thus indirectly by the choices the player has made. AKA buildings, armies, navies, battles, characters and policies all give a tech boost or malus in one of the six technologies. This way, players will need long-term planning to create a society in which their nation will excel in certain aspects. For example: a player notices he has little trade opportunities but he does have some naval or administration orientated players on the same island/continent. He could easily destroy their armies if he succeeds at gaining a military technology advancement. So he tries to buy enough stone to start building military buildings and tries to produce enough grain and iron to maintain his armies and starts training his armies by attacking neutral regions and he tweaks his government to be more focused on the military.

Now let's say this player has conquered a few cities and has gained access to some valuable resources but now he is suffering from his backwardness in trade and naval technology. This system allows him to switch some of his focus and start getting better in these fields. But this will require him quite some effort and time. In the meantime he will start to lose some of his military superiority.

Another thing I've added is that some aspects of a nation give it a little edge in all technologies, like having a free society or a centralized empire(in most cases this means small) or by investing a lot of money, effort and resources to build universities. I feel this system gives the players meaningful choices and a realistic and flexible system to work with. It hasn't been tested yet though, so who knows if it actually works.

I hope my explanation was clear and has given you some inspiration.

You'd discover items or encounter events that would unlock research topics each topic had a cost in the six different science fields. Once you paid that cost it would take a period of time before you received the results of the research.

I've always had an appeal for a system where there is a "cause for breakthroughs".

Such, a lot of empirical research can be ongoing on relatively mundane topics, but most of the breakthroughs origin from "odd discoveries" such as: we have a mutant, or stellar samples have been recovered, etc. Science gets boosted by discoveries as even the smallest thing can put a new perspective on everything we already have and we think of new tests to do on things we thought we knew etc.

So, finding traces of long gone civilizations should probably improve scientific progress by quite a margin.

Since your game is single player, and greatly asymmetrical, why not introduce such physical components on some of the planets? Finding ruins from older species and researching them might net you some advantage. Perhaps tying these unique researches to specific objects in the map so that some (many, if not all) techs can only be researched once their object has been found and researched. Would also prevent from having to deal with scientists constantly falling idle: instead, they're always assumed to be "working", but can research particular objects in hope that there's more to learn from them.

One implementation of such a system could be as follows:

Your team can only research one item at any given time. That item yields science pts (undisclosed amount). That amount reduces as technologies from this item are discovered, but science pts can still be used to progress towards more general technologies (improving engines, etc.)

Example:

"Broke Rune of Ku'lak"

Gives 100 science pts per turn investigated.

Unique tech 1 - 1000 pts: Morale +5% empire wide "The teachings of Ku'lak" (from here on, this artifact yield only 80 pts/turns)

Unique tech 2 - 3000 pts: Morale +10% empire wide "The covenant of Ku'lak" (from here on, this artifact yield only 60 pts/turns)

Unique tech 3 - 5000 pts: Morale + 15% empire wide, resist riots + 10% "Ku'lak's reign" (from here on, this artifact yield only 30 pts/turns)

Progress towards unlocking these techs is only accounted for while this item is selected.

Any points given by this artifact also translates to all other mundane techs being researched.

All mundane techs could be concurrent but have variable costs. Since progress towards each tech is measured by the same points, you can have some techs cost more or less depending on the order you want them unlocked, but some artifacts could mess up with that.

For example:

Engines I (1000 pts) Speed + 5%

Engines II (2000 pts) Speed + 10%

Warp-Drives (3000 pts) Fuel Cost - 10%

An artifact could have Warp-Drive as one of its "unique techs" meaning progress towards its realization might be twice as fast, meaning that having such an artifact in-hand would insure you can get Warp-Drives unlocked before Engines II

(focusing on techs would then become irrelevant)

Just a few random thoughts, of course.

AKA buildings, armies, navies, battles, characters and policies all give a tech boost or malus in one of the six technologies.

Only 6? I think it does not have the most interesting part of research system, which is investing in one of multiplie goodies. If there are less than like 30 techs to choose from you lost me as a player :) Of course it might be personal.

So, finding traces of long gone civilizations should probably improve scientific progress by quite a margin.

Since your game is single player, and greatly asymmetrical, why not introduce such physical components on some of the planets? Finding ruins from older species and researching them might net you some advantage.

Yes... That would be consistent with the rest of my design...

But I think I should start with the basics, a standard research system (things you can discover without any artifacts - pure science) and then add these alien techs. Also, I'm not a fan of making it primarily alien stuff, it could/should be significant but still at most 1/3 of total techs the player will discover (majority being science based).

I suppose such system can't be a tech tree (or at least not fully) if there are to be these alien techs (since these would mess with a tree greatly).

This also raises a question of "unlocking techs" (even assuming full encapsulation - alien techs being a separate tech tree/category - how these techs unlock each other? Linearly discovered maybe?)

Assuming not alien:

- Discovering a wormhole (possibly a stable one - sorry couldn't help the DS9 opportunity here!)

- Discovering a particular pulsar with a strange pattern that allows you to research certain energetic techs

- Witnessing a star's death or birth

- Discover a mineral not present on other worlds (helping you the origin of something commonplace on other worlds, such as water)

etc.

AKA buildings, armies, navies, battles, characters and policies all give a tech boost or malus in one of the six technologies.

Only 6? I think it does not have the most interesting part of research system, which is investing in one of multiplie goodies. If there are less than like 30 techs to choose from you lost me as a player Of course it might be personal.

There are 6 technologies or perhaps something like "directions" or "fields" would be a more appropriate name. They represent your empires' advancement by increasing in level. All of these technologies have multiple bonusses associated to them and unlock various things when they've reached certain levels. In this system 6 technologies, of which multiple could be worked on simultaneously, offers quite enough choice. Of course this approach is radically different from the usual tech tree and might not be what you are looking for but I thought it might give you some inspiration.

Assuming not alien:

- Discovering a wormhole (possibly a stable one - sorry couldn't help the DS9 opportunity here!)

- Discovering a particular pulsar with a strange pattern that allows you to research certain energetic techs

- Witnessing a star's death or birth

- Discover a mineral not present on other worlds (helping you the origin of something commonplace on other worlds, such as water)

etc.

It will definitely give some reason for players to start exploring and it's always fun for players to discover something important. This has given me some inspiration for adding something similar in my own game as well. Perhaps there could also be alien objects that give bonuses when they're in your possession, but that would be too dangerous to store in your cities. So that would give players a reason to play hide and seek. Meh, perhaps I'm taking this too far.

Discovering a wormhole

Look, I'm the Emperor and I say if they are going to discover a new ship hull, laser or nanobots to massage my foot. And scientists are going to deliever. I'm not intertesting in their excuses "like if they see some wormhole or whatever", I they can't deliever they will be reassigned to scrubbing nuclear reactors (there are billions loyal citizens in my domain eager to take their place).

Scientists are on *my* payroll, not on some wormhole/alien artifact payroll and they are going to do what *I* say. It can't work any other way, absolutely.

On map discoveries can be a nice addition, but the core research must be player driven. The choice is player's, we can't take it away from the player. Deciding what to research is a strategic decision, it must be in player's hands.

Why though?

Discovering a wormhole

Look, I'm the Emperor and I say if they are going to discover a new ship hull, laser or nanobots to massage my foot. And scientists are going to deliever. I'm not intertesting in their excuses "like if they see some wormhole or whatever", I they can't deliever they will be reassigned to scrubbing nuclear reactors (there are billions loyal citizens in my domain eager to take their place).

Scientists are on *my* payroll, not on some wormhole/alien artifact payroll and they are going to do what *I* say. It can't work any other way, absolutely.

It doesn't matter how powerful you as a emperor are. How can you demand something you don't even know exists or which requires information no one possesses. When you get into contact with advanced technology the player can start demanding this technology, or not. So the player still has his choice.

OK, nevermind :) The need for the player to choose a direction of the research is so natural to me I'm unable to debate this :) It's the core of any research system to me.

What's your favourite research system you have played so far (in 4X space games)?

I did a quick play and surprisingly Endless Space was the most to my liking (4 separate tech trees). Note it was the most boring one (the one from Beyond Earth was the most intiriguing to me as a player, but...), yet somehow I found it the most natural and clear. Also, traditionally, I can't get out of my mind the mutually exclusive choices inside catagories in MoO2 :)

your favourite research system

Without the shadow of a doubt: VGA Planet's ;) Binding research with physical location is just SO MUCH better imo.

Of course, you might argue that it does not fit your definition of a research system, but it was actually one of the precursors so it would be a moot point.

Hmmm, I was thinking of the tech tree and how messy it is. How about making a big list of techs and then assign each tech a category: construction/computers/energy/etc. Researching a tech of certain category adds you +1 to the category skill (like +1 construction). Then, all techs except the first ones have requirements ("shields III" - require 5 energy research).

Would it be better than traditional tech trees?

As for alien artifacts/ruins, how about making an "alien tech tree" and then each tech there require certain number of artifacts to be discovered before that tech is unlocked (and be ready to be researched - you don't get these techs after ruins discovery, just unlock)?

your favourite research system

Without the shadow of a doubt: VGA Planet's ;) Binding research with physical location is just SO MUCH better imo.

Of course, you might argue that it does not fit your definition of a research system, but it was actually one of the precursors so it would be a moot point.

But they don't even list "Research" in the manual! :) If they don't list it in the manual it does not exist :D

It never made sense to me how an advanced space civ would only work on 1 tech at a time. Many moons ago I played Pax Imperia: Eminent Domain. I loved the game, it had lots of great things in my opinion. One of these things was the research system. It was still a tree type system, but it used 5 tree categories, Weapons, Shields, Ship, Colonial, and Space. Here is the best part, my civ could research 5 different techs, one in each category at the same time. Each tech category has a percentage applied to it, and that's how much of my civ's research total it got. So it starts at 20% each one, but if I want to really focus on Weapons I can bump that to 60%, and put the rest at 10% each and bam my weapons tech catapults forward. See this screenshot.

It never made sense to me how an advanced space civ would only work on 1 tech at a time. Many moons ago I played Pax Imperia: Eminent Domain. I loved the game, it had lots of great things in my opinion. One of these things was the research system. It was still a tree type system, but it used 5 tree categories, Weapons, Shields, Ship, Colonial, and Space. Here is the best part, my civ could research 5 different techs, one in each category at the same time. Each tech category has a percentage applied to it, and that's how much of my civ's research total it got. So it starts at 20% each one, but if I want to really focus on Weapons I can bump that to 60%, and put the rest at 10% each and bam my weapons tech catapults forward. See this screenshot.

Do you like it as a player?

I know what you mean, I felt the same way. But then I played it (MOO1 IIRC) and... didn't like it as a player. After a while it turned out it's ALWAYS (without a single exception) optimal to have exactly one research at 100%, then after it was finished I was switching 100% to another research (half finished research brings no benefit, it's simply frozen research points). In the end it was just a needless chore to clcik severalk times to bring exactly one to 100% when I was to research it.

I think it might make sense only if there are artificial limits imposed (the player can't change these freely, like min 10% is obligatory). Or if the player was investing in separate research labs (build research lab that increases Energy only).

Anyway, I find more interesting how the techs selection the worked? It seems like there were no "levels" of fields but instead you could choose a specific field within a field? Was it some sort of "hidden tech tree" (a tech unlocks a new tech)?