Looking for advice on training a older colleague.

Are you responsible for training this person? It sounds like a good first step might be raising the issues tactfully with your supervisor.

I would approach it as asking for your supervisor's advice rather than "telling on" your coworker.

Why would you lose your job because of him/her? Elaborate, we're not seeing the forest here.

Just now, jbadams said:

Are you responsible for training this person?

I am responsible for the team. I have also been warned that our team is among the lowest scoring.

When I pointed to my colleague as the weak link, my supervisor warned that because of the people my colleague knows and the amount of time he has worked here, chances are that I will be the one to go.

To clear things up a bit. Our funding got cut and now low scoring members are being laid-off.

I have only been working here for two years so chances are high that I will be among the people laid-off even if I am more qualified.

How old is he and how old are you exactly? Like what kind of "experience" difference are we talking here?

I am 27 and he is 56 as you can see it's almost double.

With him so near retirement and me with still young chances are stacked against me. Normally I wouldn't mind but this time of the year is the worst time to loose a job.

So let me get this straight:

You're a team lead. They give to you a 56 year old to work with, that doesn't does anything that you tell him to, and that fucking follows YouTubers to do shit.

You complain to the manager, and he tells you that between you and him they'd pick him?

For good reasons or not, these people don't like you nor want you. Anyone would expect this kind of thing happening in such situation, and that they're stacking it against you is telling.

I want to clear this up. I don't mind loosing my job, I do contract work for me this is normal. The problem is that I am loosing my job because someone on my team doesn't want to learn to do there job.

If I can teach him and our team gets a better score, we have one more month, then at least things are fair. There is also the slim chance that if we over work our self we could have a better demo and get more funding.

So the way I see it is that by getting my colleague to do his part, things could maybe improve.

Sounds like he just isn't a systemic kind of thinker? Not everyone thinks and learns the same way, some people don't get anything out of learning the "why" - they can only learn to glue existing stuff they know how to do together without the "why" even figuring into it.

What is the nature of the work and the nature of the scoring system?

33 minutes ago, Scouting Ninja said:

he feels that because he with more experience than me doesn't know how to do a thing, then there should be no way that someone with less experience could know how to do it.

Did you tell your supervisor of this exact exchange? I would hope that your higher-ups would see reason when it comes to their employees saying something so obviously silly.

1 hour ago, TheChubu said:

For good reasons or not, these people don't like you nor want you. Anyone would expect this kind of thing happening in such situation, and that they're stacking it against you is telling.

Yes at the moment a lot of them are against me and the others that haven't worked here long. This is to be expected, they are friends and we are new.

The supervisor is a bit on my side, because he knows I have been doing the work of two people to keep up with deadlines. However the call is not his. He did say he will try to keep me but in the end a lot of people will have to go.

1 hour ago, Oberon_Command said:

Did you tell your supervisor of this exact exchange?

Didn't need to, it was a very heated argument. Everyone knows about it now.

Even with the large amount to be laid-off my colleague is safe, that is why he is willing to argue with me. The best way for me to work with this is to get him to work along. Except there is nothing I can motivate him with so I can only help him improve.

Edit: Spelling and such.

2 hours ago, Scouting Ninja said:

My colleague can only do his work with software he is familiar with, it's like he never learned the fundamentals of what he is doing.

I've worked with engineers like this a few times. One survived for a year by typing up step-by-step instructions for every task they had to perform (up to and including how to make a git commit), and stapling them to the cubicle walls. The other made it about that long by bouncing around different managers. Both were "managed out" in the end.

Sometimes people were just mis-hired (technical interviews are an imperfect science), and correcting that mistake can be the only option. It sounds like your in situation the company is unwilling to fire the individual in question. As unfortunate as it may be, your best move may be to seek new employment...

5 hours ago, Scouting Ninja said:

I am responsible for the team. I have also been warned that our team is among the lowest scoring.

When I pointed to my colleague as the weak link, my supervisor warned that because of the people my colleague knows and the amount of time he has worked here, chances are that I will be the one to go.

To clear things up a bit. Our funding got cut and now low scoring members are being laid-off.

I have only been working here for two years so chances are high that I will be among the people laid-off even if I am more qualified.

Hmmm, The criteria your bosses use to score and choose who to lay-off seems a very childish one - so much that I (figuratively) recommend the bosses themselves need to be fired for yous to make progress

I mean they are smart enough to recognise your skills and qualification, give you the lead for the team (despite you being young relative to some others), yet they base who they would choose to lay-off not on his/her productivity (or relevant skills) but based on what connections they have, who they know and how long they've spent in the company

If they are dumb enough to lay off the more skillful and more productive team member merely because he is one of the newest workers rather than lay-off the dinosaur liability, then their incompetence beggars belief...

Or maybe I'm still missing something

Advice: From what you've discussed so far - that the bosses are aware of who's holding back the team... If the demonstration of your methods still doesn't convince your colleague -then shoulder-on and endure... till when the time is right to leave and find another place to work

1 hour ago, swiftcoder said:

One survived for a year by typing up step-by-step instructions for every task they had to perform

This could maybe help. I remembered when I first started summarizing what I planed on doing on paper allowed me to think more about what it was I that I had to do and how. Maybe if I got him to write things he should do down he would understand better.

17 minutes ago, grumpyOldDude said:

I mean they are smart enough to recognise your skills and qualification, give you the lead for the team

When they originally hired me things where going very well for them, they where expanding. Now things are falling apart as more and more investors withdraw.

I think that things behind the scenes are very bad, there is even rumors that the few people had to go see a psychiatrist before they where laid-off.

The way things feel here is like they are closing down and they only intent to provide people with work for as long as they can.

1 hour ago, swiftcoder said:

your best move may be to seek new employment...

Yes, this is also what I am thinking. As things are I don't know if working here is worth it anymore, yet at the same time I don't want to look as if I am abandoning ship.

If I stay on till the end and do a good job I could maybe earn a good reference.

45 minutes ago, Scouting Ninja said:

I think that things behind the scenes are very bad, there is even rumors that the few people had to go see a psychiatrist before they where laid-off.

Sweet Jesus, get out of there while you still can!

See if you can get moved to a different team. If that fails, look for a job outside the company NOW, not when it finally collapses. As for references, surely there are some people there who are not against you. Obviously you should only have people who like your work as references. If there isn't anyone who will vouch for you now then I doubt there will be any later on.

As for the stubborn guy, just abandon him. You can probably contribute more to the team by doing your own work in the amount of time you spend trying to teach him. He's only going to drown you if you try to help him swim.

Also, you mentioned your team is "among the lowest scoring". How are teams scored?

Funny thing, as we age we know less and less until we know nothing.

If your workplace is so toxic, just move on. If you're young, white, and male you should have no problem finding a position elsewhere and if you lack one of those major qualifications surely your obvious talent and ability to lead a team of varying skill levels should put you in high demand.

If you're old as 27 you've probably already been through a couple of layoffs so you should know the drill.

14 hours ago, Nypyren said:

Also, you mentioned your team is "among the lowest scoring". How are teams scored?

Don't know the exact details of this. However meeting our deadlines seems to be a large factor and my team is normally a day or three behind.

It's the kind of thing that once you lag behind it's difficult to catch up.

14 hours ago, Nypyren said:

If there isn't anyone who will vouch for you now then I doubt there will be any later on.

The thing is no one actually hates me or anything. My team was a bit late and a few times we had to stay at work longer hours to get things done. More than once I did work for my team members and I even helped some of the environment artist that isn't even on my team. This whole time I thought I was doing well.

The feeling I get is that everyone decided because people had to be laid-off then it would be better that it was me to go, instead of someone who would have a hard time getting a new job.

The unfair part of this is that no matter how skilled you are it doesn't guarantee work. Not to mention this is a bad time of the year, I could end up job hunting till the start of next year.

6 hours ago, Bregma said:

If you're old as 27 you've probably already been through a couple of layoffs so you should know the drill.

This is my second long term job and at the last I was fired because I had a fallout with the lead designer. Admittingly I might have a anger management problem, although it only shows when I am under stress.

The rest of my portfolio consist of short term contracts and Freelance work. The good thing is that as an artist I can show people my skills instead of only depending on references.

I made lot of mistakes when I was younger and had to build my reputation the hard way. This being my second long term job is kind of why I don't want to quit just yet. Things were going well for me and then suddenly I was told that there is a very high chance of me loosing my job.

I think that tomorrow I will just talk to my supervisor, tell him that I am thinking of resigning and hear what he has to say on that.

At least I should be able to get some free time to work on my own projects while I job hunt.

14 hours ago, Nypyren said:

As for the stubborn guy, just abandon him.

That is what I am thinking. If he comes to me asking to help him I will but I won't go out of my way to get him to do his work.

On 20/08/2017 at 2:55 AM, TheChubu said:

So let me get this straight:

You're a team lead. They give to you a 56 year old to work with, that doesn't does anything that you tell him to, and that fucking follows YouTubers to do shit.

You complain to the manager, and he tells you that between you and him they'd pick him?

For good reasons or not, these people don't like you nor want you. Anyone would expect this kind of thing happening in such situation, and that they're stacking it against you is telling.

Agree. Maybe tell management that he's been trying to touch you inappropriately. Get creative.

Also that idea about cutting losses and take him off active work, maybe have him build a 3d snowman, and when it comes to review time, just say he wouldn't do any work and just spent his time making snowmen etc.

However other than blaming external things, maybe look at it as an opportunity for self-improvement. A large part of being responsible for other people, is getting on with them, massaging their egos, psychology, praising them etc, and making them as useful as you can, as you may not be able to hire / fire based on your personal preferences. The best outcome to me would be if you could identify something the guy was (or had potential) to be good at, and get them to concentrate on that particular thing to take work off of others, get some kind of self worth and be productive to the team instead of a drain. Have you thought about asking his advice for the team etc? Tell him you'd appreciate his input because of his greater experience. It is very likely he resents having a boss half his age.

Is there any chance you could find out why he is being this way? If not through him then through his friends / coworkers (if he has any)? Is he annoyed at you, or the company, feeling undervalued, something going on in his personal life or what?

Finally I'm glad you've recognised your own anger management issues - this can potentially be a massive problem in your role. It can even create exactly this type of situation, where people don't want to work with you, even people you think are 'on your side', (although I'm not suggesting it is responsible in this situation, there could be countless other reasons why he might not be being cooperative).

22 hours ago, Scouting Ninja said:

Don't know the exact details of this. However meeting our deadlines seems to be a large factor and my team is normally a day or three behind.

OK, for deadlines the things you have control over that are independent of your team's development rate:

- Costing (your estimate of time required for feature(s) that you provide to the person defining your deadline). Use a +20% or +40% (or whatever) adjustable over-estimate that you determine based on how far over/under the past few deadlines. However, try to avoid letting your teammates slack because they feel like there's no pressure. If you keep your team performance approximately constant you should be able to find the appropriate costing overestimate threshold fairly quickly. If someone else is making deadlines for you without asking you for estimates, then you should discuss this with them.

- Estimate your return-on-investment (how awesome is a feature vs. how much of a risk/burden/etc it is to implement and maintain) and discuss eliminating features which are too risky for very little benefit. In some cases you might also identify a few key changes which could dramatically simplify the task.

There is another possibility, which hopefully isn't the case, but you should know about it when you see it.

Some companies will bundle up a bunch of workers they want to get rid of into a failing project, or into a project they intend to allow to fail for a time. The bad project will give reasons for poor performance reviews. For example, a project will be under-staffed and over-scoped, but everyone will get a bad review for not meeting goals, not being team players, not contributing to the project. Or they'll be placed with people known to cause personality conflicts so they can add employee reviews about conflicts. In your case you were given someone to train, but then given what you described as a difficult or potentially impossible task. You were told the entire team is at the bottom of the barrel. That sounds typical of the situation.

It may not be the case, but it is possible the company is just setting up the entire team with plausible reasons for layoffs, just in case any of the layoffs come back to bite them through legal investigations.

You said you already started hunting for a job, but given the further descriptions I'd make that effort a priority. The line "I have also been warned that our team is among the lowest scoring" tells me someone is watching out for you. Most companies fire first then use that kind of thing as justification. It seems someone is trying to tell you: "I'm forbidden from telling you that you're about to be laid off, but I can strongly hint you're in the next layoff round."

3 hours ago, frob said:

You said you already started hunting for a job, but given the further descriptions I'd make that effort a priority.

Seconded. Assume you're going to be ejected, and have a landing place arranged before it happens.