Most Impacting/Powerful Future Programming Language

Hmm, I''ll let someone else handle the bulk of your question. I don''t think I''d explain it well .

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Original post by kuphryn
P.S. Is it better to know one language really, really well? Or is it better to know many languages

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Ideally it''s better to know many languages really, really well. Failing that (), it''s best to be able to pick up new languages relatively easily.

[Resist Windows XP''s Invasive Production Activation Technology!]

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Original post by kuphryn
Hello.

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Hi.

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Does C++ have the tools for anything if the programmer chooses to use them?

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Yes.

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I know Java is a server based language.

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You need to unknow this. Java is not a server based language. Java has extensive support for client/server based applications, and the fundamental components of the language can operate upon the client/server principle. C++ also has support for client/server applications, but this functionality isn''t built in; you must make it yourself, or use a previously created system.

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However, I am seeing more and more people programming with Java. Is it easier to learn?

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In my experience, Java is rather like BASIC in terms of ease of learning: it''s easy to learn the basics, but limitations in the language (no pointers, no first-order functions, no multiple-inheritence) mean that it is difficult, although not impossible, to implement designs that would be fairly trivial in C++.

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Not that I have any big problem with C++. I wonder why people sometimes move from C++ to Java.

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Java is safer: it handles memory and is usually better at type-safety. It is also easier to create simple Java projects.

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Lastly, what is the future of C++ once Microsoft releases .NET? Already I am hearing people boast C#. Is it true C# is relatively Jave-clone? If yes, then that could make Java one step ahead of C++ if it infact has something that Microsoft has implemented in C#.

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C# is not a Java clone. C# is, if it is like anything, a Visual Basic clone with C syntax. C# sports all the advanced features of C++ and Visual Basic.

Microsoft have made it clear in their press releases that C# is not a replacement for C++ - it is mainly a replacement for Java and Visual Basic, although both Java and Visual Basic are available in .NET.

Most sane people who read these forums will tell you that one language is rarely ''better'' than another, except in the case of COBOL. Microsoft have C, C++, C#, Java and Visual Basic compilers. GNU have C, C++, Java, Pascal and Ada compilers. Inprise (a.k.a. Borland) have C, C++ and Object Pascal compilers. All of these languages overlap each other in terms of ease-of-use, performance, and features, and you are still given a choice because one tool does not fit all.

C++ is currently the only optimized compiler available on .NET, and for that reason alone is likely to the language of choice for games developers and other people with an interest in performance issues for some time.

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P.S. Is it better to know one language really, really well? Or is it better to know many languages

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In my opinion, you can''t know one language really, really well without knowing many languages.

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Just Plain Wrong

"I wonder why people sometimes move from C++ to Java. "

One of the primary reasons is garbage collection. In Java you dont need to clean up after yourself, its all handled automaticly.
Rumor is that the garbage collection routines are getting so fast that they sometimes outperform most C++ programmers own clean up code(im not sure i believe i though.
Personally i like the whole concept of garbage collection, simply because for most programmers it will mean far less bugs, and less time searching for memory leaks.
Also javas core clasees are pretty amazing, they pretty much have everything youll ever need, and its pretty platform independent too. The functionality in these core classes are also checked very strictly, for example, if you try myArray[10] on a length 10 array, you get an out-of-bounds exception, and not just a random piece of memory(this costs CPU cycles, but again, for most programmers the pros outweigh the cons).

On the other hand, some features of java can be annoying, especially the way it passes things to methods. In C++ you can pass by pointer, reference or value, in Java all primitive types are passed by value, and everything else is passed by reference.
Java also misses multiple inheritance, but this is hardly ever an issue as most code using multiple inheritance probably shouldnt be using it One thing i would have liked in Java is operator overloading, simply because it makes code SO MUCH more readable!
Speed isnt as great a problem as it used to be, especially if you know what parts of Java to steer clear of(lightweight Swing components is *very* good example), but hardware acceleration of 2d graphics operations isnt properly supported yet, being only used for some operations, and only in Java 1.4 beta SDK(which by the way now also supports fullscreen stuff).

"Is it true C# is relatively Jave-clone?"
Syntax-wise C# is pretty much a Java clone, but java stole its syntax from C/C++ so who to say whats what
On the other hand it seems that alot of the core classes in C# are named in a way that will be extremely familiar to Java programmers.

Mayrel is correct, although I have to disagree with him on one point. Although Java does not have multiple inheritance, it gets around that with interfaces. I also find that it is just as easy to implement everything that you can do in C in Java. Although, you do have to learn the tricks that get around the differences(not limitations).

As for C#, it is based on Java, although it may have changed drastically from its beginnings. It will never replace Java, however, because it is not platform independent, which is the key feature of Java.

In my opinion, programming is prgramming, no matter what language you do it in. You just have to learn the language to program in it. But, learning a different language can also help you see things in a new light. I first learned C, then taught myself C++ and thought i had a good grasp of OOP, but then when I taught myself Java, I saw OOP in a whole new light. Now I apply what I learned of OOP in Java to my C++ programming.

EDIT: Forgot answer you first question. The language of the future just depends upon the task. For high performance applications, including games, C/C++ will be used for a long time to come.

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Make it work.
Make it right.
Make it fast.

Edited by - CaptainJester on December 6, 2001 9:00:43 AM

kuphryn, the reason you see more and more people programming with java is because its a good learning language. If you learn it correctly, its much easier for beginners (built in error checking, garbage collection, etc.), easier to catch bugs (every bug comes back with the exception and line number it was found on), basically it just has a lot of things to make your life easier. However it is also a good language to learn in conjunction with C++. C++ isn''t the best thing to learn OOP on, especially considering the language really isn''t OO (it just has the functionality in it). Java is a little closer to a true OO language, hence it helps to learn (its still not perfect though). But then again if you want a true OO language learn smalltalk (ok, its useless but it is completely OO).

After reading responses from members here and at other forums, I acknowledge that I agree that C++ is still the impacting/powerful language in the overall spectrum of software development, if not elite (it is to me).

Again and again I see members post two positive points about Java: platform independence and built in memory and input validation standard class libraries.

Platform independence:

I do admire Java because of this even though I have no experience with it if in fact is how I envisioned it (programming in any OS). However, I do not quite understand how C++ could not be used in the same way. After all, a programming language is a language that we understand, while a computer understands only zero and one. Are there performance issues because of platform independence? SUN had to have implemented something, maybe build in libraries, that comes with all installation like DLL.

Easy and Safe:

This is really effective since the programmer would not have to spend as much time developing a unique way to safeguard against erroneous user input, and it is a timesaver since the programmer is confident that there is no memory leak; however, I believe that it is better to learn and develope the ability to solve programs using a language rather than relying extensively on something that someone else made for trivial issues. The fundamental of programming is to design a program that would make a job easier or solve problems. Is it not better to gain experience through doing rather than using? There are exceptions however. The exceptions are C++''s STL various SCL like string.

One interesting point I read is knowing Java gives the programmer a different perspective on OOP since Java is OO.

Kuphryn

Hi

Java is the much cleaner as C++. It definitely the better programming language with one big problem. It far to slow to make it useful for games!

Nevertheless C++, if used correctly, is nearly as good as Java!

Take a look at my site: www.bunnz.com


Have fun
Bunnz

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Original post by kuphryn
...This is really effective since the programmer would not have to spend as much time developing a unique way to safeguard against erroneous user input...

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Um, you still have to worry about it! It just makes it easier to find the bugs!



Wait, wait, wait....who''s Nambla Fett?

...

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P.S. Is it better to know one language really, really well? Or is it better to know many languages

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Excellent question. I think it's important that you know one language really really well, and be familar with many others. The business world is coming to grips with the fact that engineers aren't like drill-press operators, in that you cannot simply interchange them and expect work to continue. You need extensive working knowledge to be productive - otherwise you spend alot of time learning and making mistakes which cost even more time later.

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Personally i like the whole concept of garbage collection, simply because for most programmers it will mean far less bugs

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The entire problem here, is that garbage collection doesn't eliminate the bug it just cleans up after it. Some would call this "robust" - but it is not. It means leak bugs pile-up throughout the project. If it never becomes an issue, then garbage collection paid-off for you. If it ever _does become an issue... heh, God Help You. "We have this Java program, and every now and then it locks up for twenty seconds, we want you to track down this bug and fix it." Problem is, it's 10,000 bugs, not 1. For most projects you're safe, but garbage collection is a time-bomb. Tick, tick, tick...

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Lastly, what is the future of C++ once Microsoft releases .NET?

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I don't think even Microsoft could quell the C nor C++ communities. The C++ VS7.Net compiler still produces native x86 executable..

Edited by - Magmai Kai Holmlor on December 6, 2001 9:12:34 PM

I think that is import to know the strengths and weaknesses of the most common languages. I am finishing the last year of a CS degree (not Counter-Strike, dammit!) and find myself using whatever language will work best for the project. In my networks class, C or C++ is long and arduous, but is fairly easy using Java. In compilers, Ada and Java are more efficient to use than C++. But no one, I repeat, NO ONE uses anything other C or C++ for graphics!

Languages are just tools, if you use the right one, it will make your task go much quicker and work better in the end.

>^,,^<

Personally, I consider the most powerful programming language as one which does not force constraints, which gives the user the most options, the most freedom. C++ does exactly this.

Miss the platform independance and garbage collection that comes with other languages? Just write code to do just that, or use someone elses code.

Want to use pointers, preprocessors, multiple inheritence, operator overloading, templates? No problem, go for it.

Now, is C++ harder to use than other languages? Absolutely. But you also aren''t as limited as with other languages.


BTW, what I personally consider a huge flaw in most programming languages is omitting templates. Templates allow you to do some extraordinary things with your code. I used to think of templates as mainly for creating generic containers, but they are useful for so much more than that.

To achieve a glimse you can read the first chapter of Modern C++ Design: Generic Programming and Design Patterns Applied at http://www.awl.com/cseng/titles/0-201-70431-5/alexandrescuch1.pdf

This book has forever changed the way I look at templates. Unfortunately, there are still some compilers (*cough*VC++ 6*cough*) that still aren''t fully compliant and can''t do some things like template specialization.


- Houdini

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Original post by Magmai Kai Holmlor
The entire problem here, is that garbage collection doesn''t eliminate the bug it just cleans up after it. Some would call this "robust" - but it is not. It means leak bugs pile-up throughout the project. If it never becomes an issue, then garbage collection paid-off for you. If it ever _does become an issue... heh, God Help You. "We have this Java program, and every now and then it locks up for twenty seconds, we want you to track down this bug and fix it." Problem is, it''s 10,000 bugs, not 1. For most projects you''re safe, but garbage collection is a time-bomb. Tick, tick, tick...

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Java does not pause because of garbage collection. I don''t think you really understand how it works. Java is slow because of the fact that there is a software layer between it and the system it runs(Java Virtual Machine) and that the inhertance trees are longer than all the forums on GameDev.net. All garbage collection does is take the onus off the programmer to remember to call delete at the end of his function. Since in C/C++ if you don''t call delete, the memory stays allocated. In Java the memory is sent to the garbage collector as soon as it goes out of scope. And since the garbage collecter runs in its own thread, it does not interfere with your program, it just waits for some idle time to clear up the space. And lets face it, most machines now adays have more the 64MB of memory and there are not too many Java programs written that will allocate that much memory in the time it takes for it to get garbage collected.



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Make it work.
Make it right.
Make it fast.

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Original post by CaptainJester
Java does not pause because of garbage collection. I don''t think you really understand how it works. Java is slow because of the fact that there is a software layer between it and the system it runs(Java Virtual Machine) and that the inhertance trees are longer than all the forums on GameDev.net. All garbage collection does is take the onus off the programmer to remember to call delete at the end of his function. Since in C/C++ if you don''t call delete, the memory stays allocated. In Java the memory is sent to the garbage collector as soon as it goes out of scope. And since the garbage collecter runs in its own thread, it does not interfere with your program, it just waits for some idle time to clear up the space. And lets face it, most machines now adays have more the 64MB of memory and there are not too many Java programs written that will allocate that much memory in the time it takes for it to get garbage collected.

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Although Magmai Kai Holmlor and I usually have different opinions on Java, I have to back him up here. Yes, the garbage collector runs in a separate thread, but unless you have a machine with 2+ processors it can and will interrupt your program. Variables on the stack will be deleted when they go out of scope, but it''s not that simple for Objects on the heap.
Simply put, if you''re repeatedly creating objects on the heap and then letting them go out of scope, you''re going to be running the gc like mad. This will produce noticeable pauses in your program. Newer VMs offset this hit a little, but the garbage collector will still have a lot to do.

In response to the original poster, I like Java because of how easy it makes it to test out an idea or an algorithm, and for it''s capabilities on the server and on handheld devices. However, as a language it is no more valid or important than C++ (or any other language for that matter).

My suggestion, as always, learn both.



"So crucify the ego, before it''s far too late. To leave behind this place so negative and blind and cynical, and you will come to find that we are all one mind. Capable of all that''s imagined and all conceivable."
- Tool
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Original post by Houdini
BTW, what I personally consider a huge flaw in most programming languages is omitting templates. Templates allow you to do some extraordinary things with your code. I used to think of templates as mainly for creating generic containers, but they are useful for so much more than that.

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I hear that the next version of Java will be supporting generic classes, but not, it would appear methods.

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CaptainJester
Java is slow because of the fact that there is a software layer between it and the system it runs(Java Virtual Machine) and that the inhertance trees are longer than all the forums on GameDev.net.

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Well, most JVMs are JIT now, so the speed of the vm is not a major issue. The depth of the inheritance tree is also not an issue: although any level of dynamic (a.k.a. virtual) inheritance will make things slower, having 20 levels of inheritance is no slower than 2 because compilers/linkers can pregenerate what are known in C++ as ''vtables'', which mean that you don''t have to search the entire tree each time you call a virtual function. Java will use vtables as well, although it probably doesn''t call them vtables.

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All garbage collection does is take the onus off the programmer to remember to call delete at the end of his function. Since in C/C++ if you don''t call delete, the memory stays allocated. In Java the memory is sent to the garbage collector as soon as it goes out of scope. And since the garbage collecter runs in its own thread, it does not interfere with your program, it just waits for some idle time to clear up the space.

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Running in another thread doesn''t automatically mean that the gc won''t interfere with your program. The vm should be smart enough to delay gc''ing until things are quiet (a good time is when you''re blocking on I/O operations, for example).

The advantage of C++ is that you can choose when to do gc. This means that you can make sure that you never decide to free up 2Mb of stuff in the middle of rendering a frame. The disadvantage of C++ in this respect, of course, is that you must choose when to do gc.

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And lets face it, most machines now adays have more the 64MB of memory and there are not too many Java programs written that will allocate that much memory in the time it takes for it to get garbage collected.

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I only have 64Mb RAM. Besides, one shouldn''t use the notion that because it shouldn''t happen very often, it''s safe to assume it won''t. In my experience, it is games that tend to allocate the most memory.

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Just Plain Wrong

CC++ originated from C.

Java derived from C++ (syntax, I think).

C# derives from both C++ and Java (right?).

Ultimately, what do you think C++ *needs* so that it is the language to know like, say, English?

I understand that C++ does have the tools for practically anything if the programmer wants to create an entirely new class template for a particular problem. However, I have seen members posting that C++ is a hack of from C. What is the difference better a hack and an innovative change? Is it the differece between modifying and incorporating a whole new algorithm?

So in the end, what does C++ need in order to eliminate some familiar flaws and how will developers come up with such solutions (since C++ is not backed by big corporations)?

Kuphryn


Edited by - kuphryn on December 7, 2001 4:33:09 PM

Okay, Java really isnt as bad as you guys are making. In fact its incredibly fast considering the way its designed. Also the garbage collection technology has evolved so fast that it now cleans up better(and sometimes faster) than *most* programmers.
What makes people think Java is slow, probably comes from viewing applets or seeing programs utilizing Swing GUI. Applets run on the browsers plugins which are ANCIENT Virtual machines that are perhaps 10 times slower than the 1.4 version. And using Swing in a Java project is a *certain* way to strangulate your program.
I really think the article "Why Java can used for Games" : http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1067.asp
Is something that should be read before slandering the speed of Java.
What Java currently lacks is good platform independent hardware acceleration for sound and graphics. And these things are on their way as the beta versions of the 1.4 SDK clearly show.
I think C++ will be *the* programming language for a long time coming(thats why i bothered learning it(though i could still use more training ), but its only natural that higher level languages will win in the end. As computers get faster and a language like Java or perhaps C# offer almost all of the speed of C++, game companies will have to migrate in order to develop increasingly sophisticated games fast enough.(Just like assembler really isnt used that much anymore because C/C++ development is easier to use and thus faster in development). Not worrying at all about memory cleanup frees a lot of time for making a better game.

i completely agree with Houdini

IMO both Java and C# seem good and usable OO languages, but i believe some of the more interesting and revolutionary work these days is done in the areas of generic (read: template) programming and design

Houdini mentioned that VC++ 6.0 is not "fully compliant" with template (overall OOP as well?). Is .NET going to be an elite C++ compiler? I know .NET support C# and VC, but I think people that replied would agree C++ i still the most flexible, extensible programming language.

Kuphryn

VS7 is supposed to be more compliant - some issuse require the user to twiddle project settings inorder to get compliancy. Like the scope of i in:
for(int i=0; i{}

I believe it supports partial template specialization as well.

Scott Meyers says: "If you''re using Visual C++ .NET, you STL platform doesn''t have the problems described below, and you may ignore this appendix" Effective STL, Appenedix B, Remarks on Microsoft''s STL Platform.

Magmai Kai Holmlor

"Oh, like you''ve never written buggy code" - Lee

"What I see is a system that _could do anything - but currently does nothing !" - Anonymous CEO