C# and its functionality.

I doubt we will see any substantial commitment to C# as a game programming language until DX9 with support for Managed DirectX is released sometime next year. You can get at the DX8 interfaces for VB through COM Interop if you absolutely want too though.
However, there is a port of OpenGL and SDL at http://csgl.sourceforge.net, and I have seen one 3D engine written in C# using that port - dont have an URL, I''m afraid.
The language itself makes a lot of sense to me though. It is very similar to Java, but is somewhat more flexible and more suited to writing more types of apps(GUI is one area where Java has a serious problem). It also allows you to access memory directly if you absolutely need to, through sections marked "unsafe".
The .NET library is also very rich - with support for IO, ASP.NET, sockets, GUI and what have you.


Fantastic doctrines (like Christianity or Islam or Marxism or Microsoft-bashing) require unanimity of belief. One dissenter casts doubt on the creed of millions. Thus the fear and hate; thus the torture chamber, the iron stake, the gallows, the labor camp, the psychiatric ward - Edward Abbey

*** CENSORED ***
(Arild: I INSULTED C# HERE WITH NO EXPERIENCE AT ALL OF THE LANGUAGE!!!)
...and I apologize.
*** CENSORED ***

Edited by - AdmiralBinary on December 27, 2001 7:37:30 PM

Edited by - AdmiralBinary on December 30, 2001 10:52:12 PM

Edited by - AdmiralBinary on December 30, 2001 10:59:25 PM

Mindless bigots like that are the reason why I don''t read Slashdot.

Fantastic doctrines (like Christianity or Islam or Marxism or Microsoft-bashing) require unanimity of belief. One dissenter casts doubt on the creed of millions. Thus the fear and hate; thus the torture chamber, the iron stake, the gallows, the labor camp, the psychiatric ward - Edward Abbey

I am rubber, you are glue...

C# is Microsoft''s lame attempt to replicate Sun Microsystem''s massively successful Java programming language, hence the added support for HTML and stuff.

They basically made it in case they lose their court case with Sun Microsystems over the use of Java (or something like that), so they still have something that can write programs for browsers. In fact, I don''t even know if that lawsuit still around. Still, there are so many targeted at Microsoft these days (note to self: file lawsuit against Microsoft)...

iNsAn1tY - the place where imagination and the real world merge...
Try http://uk.geocities.com/mentalmantle

whether you hate Microsoft or not, learning a language when it has JUST been developed is bad. Java has went through many changes since it''s release. Whether C# will or not is yet to be seen. Imagine putting a lot of development time into this and it just being tossed to the roadside by companies and developers. I would wait at least a year, maybe 2, before even considering learning this. Let it work out the bugs, then consider it for your next project. The improvements over what is already out there, like C++ and Java are yet to be seen. Personally, I started with Java, and have now moved on to C++. And I love C++. It''s a very powerful language that improves on the potholes of C.

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Original post by iNsAn1tY
C# is Microsoft''s lame attempt to replicate Sun Microsystem''s massively successful Java programming language,

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I assume you know the language spec fairly well, to be in a position to say this? Granted, the languages have similarities, but so do C++ and Java. And Java and Smalltalk. And C and C++. And Smalltalk and Simula. And C++ and Smalltalk. And Java and java-script and so on. Face it, no new language today will emerge from the void without any influences from existing languages.

This is a fairly balanced comparison of the features of Java and C#: C# From A Java Developer''s Perspective

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hence the added support for HTML and stuff.

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What support for HTML? If you are talking about ASP.NET, that is just another .NET class library, and as such is available to all .NET languages. C# as such has no intrinsic support for HTML.

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They basically made it in case they lose their court case with Sun Microsystems over the use of Java (or something like that),

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You must have very good contacts inside Redmond, since you know so much about Microsoft''s internal policies.

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so they still have something that can write programs for browsers.

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Again the confusion between C# as a language and .NET as a framework. While Internet Explorer is able to render Winforms apps, this has hardly been a focus for the MS marketing engine, and the procedure to make it work is not very well documented.
Besides, most interactive client-side content on websites today is done in Flash, not Java - its not a very interesting market.
No, MS is going after Sun in another market - the backend server market. Its not Java applets vs C# applets, its J2EE vs the .NET framework. Both Sun and MS realize that server-side computing will become more and more pervasive in the years to come.
It might seem that .NET has a performance advantage at the moment: .NET vs Java. Note that this is an MS site, and there is some dispute regarding the benchmarks - details can be found elsewhere on the site.
Undoubtedly, this will be countered by future versions of J2EE, and .NET will in turn become even faster. But this is the form of healthy competition everyone benefits from.

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In fact, I don''t even know

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Exactly - you apparently dont know much. If anything at all.

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Post by subnet-rx
whether you hate Microsoft or not, learning a language when it has JUST been developed is bad. Java has went through many changes since it''s release. Whether C# will or not is yet to be seen.

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Because of the recent acceptance of the C# and CLI spec by ECMA, MS is not in the same position as Sun to perform major unilateral changes in the way the language or the framework works(Sun can pretty much do what they want with the Java spec). From this we can safely deduce that the language will stay relatively stable for a while.

"Be kind to the ignorant, for they shall inherit the world"



Fantastic doctrines (like Christianity or Islam or Marxism or Microsoft-bashing) require unanimity of belief. One dissenter casts doubt on the creed of millions. Thus the fear and hate; thus the torture chamber, the iron stake, the gallows, the labor camp, the psychiatric ward - Edward Abbey

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Original post by Anonymous Poster
Is easy bad?

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Ah, pay no attention to him. After all, I''m sure he never uses libraries like Win32, STL, DirectX, OpenGL, etc, cause it makes it too easy . He also programs in pure assembly because it''s "More power, More control, Faster".



That being said, I plan to switch over to C# for both web and application programming. However, I''m still sticking to C++ for game programming.


- Houdini

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Is easy bad?

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OK, ok, ok... What I mean is that it does all that stuff behind your back (memory cleaning etc.) that is SUPPOSED to make it easier, but in fact makes the code harder to read by "real" programmers AND gives you less control.

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Ah, pay no attention to him. After all, I''m sure he never uses libraries like Win32, STL, DirectX, OpenGL, etc, cause it makes it too easy . He also programs in pure assembly because it''s "More power, More control, Faster".

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LOL. You''re right, I did come across kinda nutzy, but it''s all in the name of preserving C++ And, FYI, I DO use Win32, STL, DirectX, and OpenGL. I just hate C#, that''s all - anything wrong with that?

P.S. Plz all understand I speak from a game-programmer''s perspective. C# is probably going to be the language of choice for web developers and business app designers who want to go one step further.

---------------

I finally got it all together...
...and then forgot where I put it.

Using the name "Anonymous Poster" to post is an obvious sign of someone who does not wish to be recognized, and is not prepared to back up his/her posts. I DID acknowledge my mistake, and explain my position. Forgive me - I''m a little sore at being called a newbie.

---------------

I finally got it all together...
...and then forgot where I put it.

From a game development perspective I think C# may become very useful on the tool development front. I remember reading an article on gamedev.net about using MFC (which a lot of people don''t like) to speed up tool development and I think C# could do the same, e.g. garbage collection can make things a whole lot easier since you can create new objects left and right and once you don''t need them any more you can just forget about them thats certainly handy. The less time you spend putting together level building tools, for example, the more time you have to actually build levels .

Cheers

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Original post by AdmiralBinary
OK, ok, ok... What I mean is that it does all that stuff behind your back (memory cleaning etc.) that is SUPPOSED to make it easier, but in fact makes the code harder to read

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It does no such thing. Not having your code littered with the trivialities of manual memory management makes it far more readable.

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by "real" programmers

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Real programmers dont use the term "real programmers".

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AND gives you less control.

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To utilize the so-called power that C++ gives you efficiently, you need a lot of experience with the language. Judging from your posts, you have nowhere near that experience and would probably be better off with a simpler language like Python. The call for "more control" just sounds silly coming from you.

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LOL. You''re right, I did come across kinda nutzy, but it''s all in the name of preserving C++

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Bigotry is equally despicable no matter in whose/whats name it is.
C++ has never been, nor was it intended to be, an ideal programming language. Its design is a nod to pragmatism and to the amounts of C legacy code in existence at the time of its inception.

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I just hate C#, that''s all - anything wrong with that?

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Yes. Using the word "hate" about something so trivial as a programming language is unfortunate at best when theres currently so much real hate in the world.

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I''m a little sore at being called a newbie.

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Then stop sounding like one.

Might I ask how much C# code you have actually written? You must obviously have extensive experience using the language to oppose it this strongly.

(BTW: Editing your post like that is cowardly. If you wrote it, stand by it.)







Fantastic doctrines (like Christianity or Islam or Marxism or Microsoft-bashing) require unanimity of belief. One dissenter casts doubt on the creed of millions. Thus the fear and hate; thus the torture chamber, the iron stake, the gallows, the labor camp, the psychiatric ward - Edward Abbey

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It does no such thing. Not having your code littered with the trivialities of manual memory management makes it far more readable.

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That''s your opinion vs. my opinion.

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Real programmers dont use the term "real programmers".

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Maybe, but real programmers CAN use the term "real" programmers (which is what I did). There''s a difference. Look up in an English book the meaning of quotation marks in certain contexts.

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To utilize the so-called power that C++ gives you efficiently, you need a lot of experience with the language. Judging from your posts, you have nowhere near that experience and would probably be better off with a simpler language like Python.

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You''re not even answering my post here. You''re sidetracking the issue. You acknowledge that C++ DOES give you more control. That was all I said. I said absolutely nothing about experience.

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The call for "more control" just sounds silly coming from you.

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An insult. Need I say more?

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...but it''s all in the name of preserving C++.

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I''m not gonna defend this. You have obviously taken it far more seriously than it was intended.

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Yes. Using the word "hate" about something so trivial as a programming language is unfortunate at best when theres currently so much real hate in the world.

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Oh please, please don''t preach!

Oxford Dictionary:
hate v.t. Have a strong dislike of or strong aversion to.

Let me amend my post: "I have a strong dislike of C# - anything wrong with that?"
Happy now?

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Then stop sounding like one. (a newbie)

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Maybe I do... How long have you been programming C++ and C#?

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Might I ask how much C# code you have actually written? You must obviously have extensive experience using the language to oppose it this strongly.

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None. Absolutely not one line. All I did was read the language specs on MSDN, and that put me off.

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(BTW: Editing your post like that is cowardly. If you wrote it, stand by it.)

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Not at all. It shows that I acknowledge I was wrong.

---------------

I finally got it all together...
...and then forgot where I put it.

are we in kindergarten(hope this voc is right ? if 2 people have opposite meanings/caraters, there will always be disputing! so: stop it now!

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Original post by AdmiralBinary
It does no such thing. Not having your code littered with the trivialities of manual memory management makes it far more readable.

That''s your opinion vs. my opinion.

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If you have numerous blocks of code that arent related to the problem domain, they dont improve readability. Thats not even a matter of opinion.

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Real programmers dont use the term "real programmers".

Maybe, but real programmers CAN use the term "real" programmers (which is what I did). There''s a difference. Look up in an English book the meaning of quotation marks in certain contexts.

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Please refer me to one.

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To utilize the so-called power that C++ gives you efficiently, you need a lot of experience with the language. Judging from your posts, you have nowhere near that experience and would probably be better off with a simpler language like Python.

You''re not even answering my post here. You''re sidetracking the issue. You acknowledge that C++ DOES give you more control. That was all I said. I said absolutely nothing about experience.

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The underlying intent was that most people neither fully utilize nor need that type of power that C++ gives you.
Having said that, I cannot fail to notice that you havent defined "power" in this context. If you see power as the ability to build software faster and with less bugs, C# is by far more powerful than C++.
In those rare cases you actually need direct access, C# has provisions for that:

• You can turn off garbage collection for selected objects.
  
• You can manipulate memory directly through pointers.
  

Notice here that C# gives you the power to choose - C++ just shoves it in your face whether you want it or not.

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The call for "more control" just sounds silly coming from you.

An insult. Need I say more?

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Not an insult. I stated an opinion. But the wording was unfortunate - I apologize.

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...but it''s all in the name of preserving C++.

I''m not gonna defend this. You have obviously taken it far more seriously than it was intended.

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I stand by my statement regarding bigotry. Whenever the words "in the name of" appear, ugly things happen.

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Yes. Using the word "hate" about something so trivial as a programming language is unfortunate at best when theres currently so much real hate in the world.
Oh please, please don''t preach!

Oxford Dictionary:
hate v.t. Have a strong dislike of or strong aversion to.

Let me amend my post: "I have a strong dislike of C# - anything wrong with that?"
Happy now?

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Yes.

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Then stop sounding like one.

Maybe I do... How long have you been programming C++ and C#?

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C++ - 4 years
C# - 5 months

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Might I ask how much C# code you have actually written? You must obviously have extensive experience using the language to oppose it this strongly.

None. Absolutely not one line. All I did was read the language specs on MSDN, and that put me off.

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Thats an extremely thin foundation for making such a strong statement. Do you know any language besides C++ at all?

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(BTW: Editing your post like that is cowardly. If you wrote it, stand by it.)

Not at all. It shows that I acknowledge I was wrong.

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It also shows that you dont want others to see exactly how wrong you were.






Fantastic doctrines (like Christianity or Islam or Marxism or Microsoft-bashing) require unanimity of belief. One dissenter casts doubt on the creed of millions. Thus the fear and hate; thus the torture chamber, the iron stake, the gallows, the labor camp, the psychiatric ward - Edward Abbey

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Original post by Anonymous Poster
C# is a better java. It lacks a lot of the features that make C++ so great.

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Which features in particular are you referring to?

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I don''t think I could bring myself to use a language without templates unless it is just for small programs.

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Too bad for you then, since it limits you to the few languages that do have them. However, template like functionality is planned for the next version of C#. See http://research.microsoft.com/projects/clrgen/



Fantastic doctrines (like Christianity or Islam or Marxism or Microsoft-bashing) require unanimity of belief. One dissenter casts doubt on the creed of millions. Thus the fear and hate; thus the torture chamber, the iron stake, the gallows, the labor camp, the psychiatric ward - Edward Abbey

I''m still waiting for C flat

Well, in my opinion, why use C#? When you could use the best language in my opinion, SCSPL, hehehehe... (Short Character Syntax Programming Language) still in dev... hehehehehe...

Also, C/C++ is pretty flexable, but tend to side with indev langs since they gennerally have more advances faster

I''ll stick with an established languange. Newer versions of C# are already being planned I see, and the IDE''s for it aren''t even in production yet.

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Original post by subnet_rx
I''ll stick with an established languange. Newer versions of C# are already being planned I see, and the IDE''s for it aren''t even in production yet.

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Uhhh? Visual Studio.NET? Or Sharpdevelop if you want to go free and GPL. Or here for a C# Emacs mode.




Fantastic doctrines (like Christianity or Islam or Marxism or Microsoft-bashing) require unanimity of belief. One dissenter casts doubt on the creed of millions. Thus the fear and hate; thus the torture chamber, the iron stake, the gallows, the labor camp, the psychiatric ward - Edward Abbey