quote: Original post by AngelStar
...to the guy who works for Sony...im looking for a job.

You''re funny!



George D. Filiotis
Are you in support of the ban of Dihydrogen Monoxide? You should be!

From what I’ve read (I hope Spidey will confirm this) game production is becoming more like the film industry where the script is essential for defining the boundaries of the entire project, milestones for budget and as a working reference document. The design specification may have been translated from a novel or a film or not, the person or persons who create this document are what I would call a “Game designer”.
This may not have been the approach in the past but I feel sure that it is the only future.
The film industry can spend $100 million on a film with a life span of weeks where the public pay a mere few dollars to see and make a healthy profit. I’m sure that a game costing 10’s of dollars with a longer lifespan, years in some cases can make a very healthy profit indeed.

Nomax5

Edited by - nomax5 on January 9, 2002 7:55:13 AM

Ok, well what you are now saying, Gaiiden, is not the same as what you were originally saying.

What you are really trying to say to people is "Hey, if you think just because you have ideas for games that you can go to a company and get hired just so they can spend their money to implement your ideas, you''re wrong." This is basically the gist of your comments.

What you shouldn''t have said, was that there are no ''entry level game designers''. Because that''s BS.

The problem here is that nobody agrees on what a game designer is, we''re dealing with semantics. So, I took the troubled to search online and find some job postings for game designer.

Here is one listed as ''game designer''. Notice that in the requirements, ''professional game design'' experience is considered a plus, not a requirement. To me, this means the job is entry level.
____________________________

We are currently looking for a designer to work on a new, next-gen console project. It’s a cartooney, platform/adventure-style game, and we to hear from applicants that can be responsible primarily for level design and population, although duties might extend into other areas over time. The position requires a fair knowledge of 3DSMax, as you’ll be required to mock up rough level meshes, run them in our engine, tune them for gameplay, and then hand them off to artists to make them look pretty (although ideally the prettier you can make them to begin with, the less the artists will have to do, so they can concentrate on other things). In addition, there will be a bit of scripting you’ll have to do to set up gameplay situations. If this sounds like an opportunity that might be a match for your skills, let us know. Also, please send along any samples you might have that demonstrate your abilities as they pertain to this project -- and if you don’t have any, whip some up! :-)
Requirements: Requirements: Game design and implementation experience / Proven proficiency with game development tools / Wide range of gaming interests / Wide knowledge of multiple game genres / Excellent writing ability / Excellent communication ability / Ability to work and thrive within a group dynamic / Self starter, self motivated /// Plusses: Professional game dev experience / Console development experience / Rudimentary programming ability / Management experience /// Submissions: Game design sample(s) (Quake maps, Star Craft levels, graph dungeons from D&D campaigns, etc.) / Writing sample(s) (creative, technical, instructional, reports, etc.)
___________________

I''ll continue this in another posting...

Ok, here''s a listing for a Level Designer. Note that this is DIFFERENT from a game designer. This particular company is looking for EXPERIENCED people...but I''ve seen many level designer jobs that only require knowledge and skills, which could be demonstrated in mapping people may have done on mod projects. In fact, a friend of mine just got a contract job at Ubisoft working on an XBox title. He was recruited right out of the Unreal mapping community.
______________

Paradigm Entertainment, Inc. seeks a talented and experienced (must have worked in the games industry) Level Designer to join our team. We have a great reputation within the games industry for successful N64 titles (Pilot Wings 64, Beetle Adventure Racing, etc.). Paradigm Entertainment, Inc. plans to add to our success several exciting titles we are currently developing for Playstation 2, X-Box and Gamecube. Located in Carrollton, Texas – a suburb of Dallas – Paradigm’s employees enjoy the diverse benefits of living in a large metropolitan area. The Dallas-Fort Worth area enjoys a low cost of living, affordable housing, quality schools, and, as residents of Texas, there is no state income tax. The area boasts a wide range of options for entertainment, from world class shopping and dining to museums, concerts, and other cultural events, as well as a choice of top professional sports teams. A moderate climate allows year-round enjoyment of outdoor entertainment and leisure activities. And being centrally located in the US with one of the nation’s top airports ensures easy access to anywhere in the world. Interested candidates are encouraged to learn more about Paradigm and Infogrames by visiting the companies respective websites at www.pe-i.com and www.infogrames.com.
Requirements: Job Description: Responsible for construction of the game’s levels specifically, the layout, modeling (to include architecture, terrain and props), game play, event scripting balance and tuning of levels. Work with 3D Artists for textures and details to establish level’s final appearance. Works within given deadlines assigned by Lead Artist. Goals and achievements evaluated for LEVEL DESIGNER: · Applicable AFA or BFA degree in Art related field (Computer Animation, Graphic Design, 3D Modeling) · Minimum 2 years experience in game development · Experience on published, completed game projects · Knowledge of game development software tools, 3D toolsets and texture work a plus (Maya, 3D Studio Max, Photoshop, Illustrator, Visio, etc.) · Good hand skills a plus · Extensive knowledge of games and ability to create and innovate with new ideas · Understanding of game development life cycle and design process - from concept to delivery · Able to successfully work within large team, with other Artists, Software Engineers, Game Designer and Producer · Good communication skills essential · Ability to take direction from Lead Artist and Game Designer · Responsible for completing tasks assigned per schedule · Technical, engine-related experience is a plus In exchange for your dedication and contribution, we provide a generous compensation package including excellent salary, bonuses, 401(k), relocation assistance, paid vacation & holidays and a comprehensive health benefit plan! Interested applicants should forward resume, demo reel and reel break down/credit list to: Paradigm Entertainment, Inc. Attn: Recruiting 1628 Valwood Pkwy Suite 110 Carrollton, TX 75006 Fax: (972) 488-6317 Recruiting@pe-i.com The demo reel should contain several samples of your work demonstrating your modeling, texturing, animation and traditional hand skills. If your work is part of a team effort, please designate your contribution. Resumes with demo reels or CD’s will be given priority over those resumes that are received without demo reels or CD’s.

Ok, and for my final example, here is a posting for a Senior Game Designer. They are looking for someone with 2-4 years professinal experience. Now I don''t know about you guys, but having 2-4 yrs. professional experience means you''ve worked on 2 or maybe 3 games. You''re far from having 10 yrs of industry experience or running the company. Still, if you read this post carefully, you''ll see this designer has quite a bit of creative influence over the project.
___________

My client is a leading edge developer of electronic entertainment software. Their debut product launched in 1999 to near unanimous recognition as one of the best video games of the year. It won the "Game of the Year" from PC Gamer and Computer Gaming World''s "Strategy Game of the Year." The sequel to this game followed in 2000 and the Company will soon be releasing a 3D, Real-Time Strategy (RTS) game set in the 1930s. The lead game designer is responsible for designing all major aspects of the game''s gameplay, control, interface, and story. This usually (but not necessarily) takes the form of the game''s initial design document. Additionally, designer must co-ordinate with all other leads on the project to help flesh out the design via feedback and discussions, and also to keep the game design compatible with the art direction and programming/performance restrictions. During this time the designer should also be paying a lot of attention to the gaming marketplace: playing games in the same genre, evaluating his/her own designs versus what''s already out there and what is coming out. PROOF OF CONCEPT: Typically at this stage a Proof of Concept design document is produced. This micro design doc covers all the features in all areas of the project (art, code, design, sound) that will be completed for the proof of concept milestone. The designer is also responsible for any design content in proof of concept. e.g. tuning, level layout, basic front end layout, etc. PRODUCTION: This is the longest stage of the project. Towards the beginning, the designer is responsible for clearing up any remaining design issues in the game. This may take a while as the game takes shape and major features fall into place; the designer must always keep an eye towards nailing down the ''final'' version of the various parts of the game so that they can undergo the most playtesting and tweaking. The designer should work closely with the programmers to design the tools for the game and the various pipelines used (e.g. art pipeline, tuning pipeline, level design pipeline, etc.) When production gets fully underway, the designer is responsible for creating content for the game: missions/levels/game environments, unit or character behaviour, story writing, NIS/cutscene design, and tuning/play-balancing the game. The extent to which the lead designer can do this by him/herself depends on the scope of the project. Apart from producing content him/herself, the designer is responsible for evaluating all the other aspects of the project. This includes all the code features which affect the gameplay, control, interface, etc. Additionally, the designer should evaluate the game art and sound to the extent that it has an impact on gameplay. Finally, the designer is responsible for dealing with the myriad of design issues which come up as the project progresses - the aim being to minimise risk to the project (schedule slippage) and maximise the benefit to the game. MISC: The designer is responsible for interviewing, hiring, and firing any assistant designers on the project, within the budget constraints of the company. The designer may be asked to contribute to discussions/feedback/interviews for marketing/press related issues. The designer is also responsible for helping to schedule design tasks and may be asked to give feedback on the scheduling of tasks in other areas. Industry Experience: „h 2-4 Years of Game Design Experience essential.
Requirements: „h 2-4 Years of Game Design Experience essential.

Ok sorry...THIS is the final one. Here''s a posting from Sony Online Entertainment for a Game Programmer, just for comparison.
___________________

Game Programmer
Job Title Location Date
Game Programmer San Diego, CA Dec 14


Requirements
Primary Responsibilities:

·Responsible for developing, writing and debugging code for new and upgraded software products.
·Performs some testing and participates in the design of the product.
·Works with testers, designers, artists, and other personnel involved in the development of the products.
·May program tools and utilities to support work on the project.
·Produces documentation for other programmers’ use.

Requirements:

·B.S. in computer science and/or two to four years of experience programming primarily in C/C++ environments with knowledge of Win 98/ME/2K/XP.
·Ability to write clear, maintainable code.
·Ability to work in a coordinated manner on a large team.
·Previous experience with development problems specific to online games preferred.
·Strong 3D graphics experience and familiarity with EverQuest preferred.
·Understanding of and ability to write/debug 80x86 assembly preferred.
·Strong desire to provide high-quality enhancements from start to finish.


Benefits
Compensation/Benefits: Sony Online Entertainment offers a competitive salary and a generous benefits package that includes Medical, Dental, 401K, Vision and additional perks. SOE is an equal opportunity employer.

quote: Original post by Tacit
Ok, well what you are now saying, Gaiiden, is not the same as what you were originally saying.

Yes, Irealize where I strayed off into the wilds.

quote: Original post by Tacit
What you are really trying to say to people is "Hey, if you think just because you have ideas for games that you can go to a company and get hired just so they can spend their money to implement your ideas, you''re wrong." This is basically the gist of your comments.

That''s correct. These kind of people are ones with years of industry experience to back them up.

quote: Original post by Tacit
What you shouldn''t have said, was that there are no ''entry level game designers''. Because that''s BS.

The problem here is that nobody agrees on what a game designer is, we''re dealing with semantics.

That''s very true (the semantics part). However, for the sake of clarity (and sanity )let''s break this down into two terms: "Game Designer" and "Designer".

The Game Designer that I''ve been speaking of this entire thread is the master puppeteer pulling all the strings. He''s head of the team who gets (or conceives) the idea and runs the team by piecing it up to the various departments, listening to their feedback, and modifying the gameplay as needed, but making final decisions so that arguments don''t go on forever. Entry level job position? No.

The Designer is a general term we''ll use for level designers, production assistants, writers... all those specific fields that fall under the control of the Game Designer and yet influence the gameplay. While I''m sure people would be happy with these positions, they probably aren''t what they''ve dreamed of (The Game Designer position). Entry level job positions? Yes.

_________________________________________________________________

Drew Sikora
A.K.A. Gaiiden

ICQ #: 70449988
AOLIM: DarkPylat

Blade Edge Software
Staff Member, GDNet
Public Relations, Game Institute

3-time Contributing author, Game Design Methods , Charles River Media (coming GDC 2002)
Online column - Design Corner at Pixelate

NJ IGDA Chapter - NJ developers unite!! [Chapter Home | Chapter Forum]

Well now you''re just making stuff up and confusing the issue even more.

My examples were meant to illustrate that:

(1) there are entry-level game designer jobs
(2) game designers and level designers are not the same thing, although level design is a part of game design
(3) there are different levels of game designers, with the more senior ones having a lot of creative influence over the project
(4) the more senior game design jobs, where are effectively coming up with ideas for games, are not necessarily ones you need to have 10 years of experience or your own studio to obtain

In any case, I think I''ve made my point, and I hope I didn''t add more confusion to the matter.

Generally speaking, I think your original post was more intentionally discouraging than it was informative.

R.

I agree with Tacit (on all points), you´re just adding more names to jobs which already have too much of them. It´s true, all those enthusiastic kids who want to be "game designers" for lack of other skills need to be told that that´s not going to happen, but for those who have the skills and ambition game design is a field where they can get jobs.
In that respect the statement by Ken Hoekstra was also not right (for overgeneralisation). I realise that usually money and power determine whose ideas get used, but that´s not the way it has to be. Or the way it is everywhere.

And another example: me. I have started out in this company doing game design (mostly thinking/writing up GDs) and I´ve been doing that almost exclusively ever since. Of course there are a lot of other things that need to be done, but game design is my primary occupation. And technically it was an entry-level job.

Now, Ive asked for a job, now here is MY personal rant about game design in this lovely industry of ours.

Ive been interested in design since I was nine years old, Im now 25 years old. I have studied game design in and out for many many years, and can tell you what works and what doesnt work. The main problem I see in this industry is that everybody has one good idea, but not everybody has ten. The problem is either, the programmer or artist thinks they can design, the team things they ALL can design, well to that I say too many cooks or the wrong cooks can spoil the soup, and lord knows we have alot of horrible cooks.

Here are some of the problems I see overall, but I will also list solutions to them. I believe dont complain unless you have a solution to the problem that youre complaining about.


1. Sorry to say it but most of the designers to day outright suck, they dont have complete design skills, I dont mean programming, I dont mean drawing, programming is programming, and drawing is drawing, people REALLY need to stop looking at design as if its some "Well, Bill can do it" thing. Pfft to that, because most likely, Bill either has one great idea, or Bill just flat out sucks. Game designers these days ive seen suffer from many things. Lack of knowledge about their market, lack of humility to study their market, lack of humility to know that yes its okay to start out with a smaller project that wont neccesarily in my terms "Destroy the earth" people also dont know how to design based on platform working on (how many of you can design a 2600 game and then design a Xbox game with both utilizing everything that both systems can do, I dont think that many of you). They have no idea of the meaning of great gameplay, and the idea of scope, and most of them design the way they cook, bland, tasteless rubbish, sure it may be nutritious and fill my stomach, but would I eat it if I had a choice to eat something that wasnt as nutritious or as filling? Games simply just dont have any flavor.

2. Making designers start as testers

This is just one of the STUPIDEST things ive ever heard, what the hell would I learn by playing others games that I dont know already if im a true designer? How much they suck? Not to mention what if you are a designer who is making games based on pop culture. I was a tester at a NYC based games company for a little, while helping on other designs. I met an older guy (the man had grey hair for Christs sakes) who was also a tester. I was shopping around a design around the company (which the majority of the company loved, but I was told to not show it to the heads of the company because they would be closed minded to it, not because of it being a bad idea, but because they didnt think of it. I showed the game to this older tester and you know what he suggested I should put into it? Breakdancing, um what year is this?, this is exactly my point. Do you think that Max
Payne would be looked upon the same way if it came out in ten years? NO, because the game is based upon pop culture, or what about NBA Street? Pop culture is becoming quite the genre, and because of the fact that I know that some GREAT designers are begin held back means that a great pop culture design will die because of time. The game I was shopping around was an update on one of the greatest NES games of all time,a title that comes up constantly on magazine greatest gaming lists with innnovations that its genre still has not seen on its level. I wanted to do an unofficial sequel to it with a pop culture flavor to it no different than like NBA Street. Do you think this game would be succesfull in five years after me slaving in this companies testing department? Ive was already working on designs, was constantly asked for opinions and even sent out as a design consultant to other companies. Times change, styles change, slang changes. The game was meant to appeal to todays MTV generation who wasnt around when the Nes game debuted, but then give the gamers who do remember that game some nostalgia at the same time. Therefore killing two birds with one stone. How many designers think about this? Not many. How many designers would take the time to realize the reason why the Oddworld series doesnt sell well is because it has a double negative in its presentation, which are 1.Ugly character design and 2.Thought provoking puzzles, how many of them are going to actually know that a game like that isnt going to be given a chance by the casual mainstream who doesnt have alot of patience? So they are sitting there playing the game where then they get to a puzzle, get stuck and are sitting there looking at ugly characters. Who wants to play this? I mean I love the series for its humor, but why does it have to be niche if it doesnt have to be? I its great that Oddworld Inhabitants wants to tell a story about an unlikely hero, but do they have to look like dead fish, and then have the nerve to make you think? Most designers cannot do this.

Ill give another example of how poor design is, and how it needs to be a bit more formalized. Talking to a friend of mine from a very highly regarded British studio he tells me of his boss infatuation with the game Pikmin, his boss being considered one of the gaming gods as well (I would cry mentioning his name and you would too). Telling me how is boss is amazed on how Miyamoto flawlessly got the game to work on a console control pad and how its amazing an RTS can play so well on a pad. I ask my friend, "Um havent you guys ever played Sega's Herzog Zwei on the Genesis?" All of a sudden there is silence. I say to him: "Not only did Herzog Zwei do the same thing like six years earlier it was the first RTS which allowed you to have control over one of your units and get into the thick of the battles if things were going wrong or to assist your troops, and this game was on the Genesis, and its not like this game is unknown, its one of the games mentioned on magazines top one hundred lists world wide and a fan is even making a mod with the Unreal engine". Pitiful, absoulutely pitiful I have completly lost faith in his boss, I mean surely as a game god you would think that this man would study his craft and learn about what others are doing. I am not a PC gamer at all having recently gotten into it but I still remember old games like Space Quest and what made it so great, and who figures like Roberta Williams are. I have always studied game design and designers buying magazines for consoles I didnt own, buying PC gaming mags to keep up with whats going on even when I didnt play PC games at all, which Ive only started really getting into them about two years ago. I know that in order to be a great game designer I have to study its greats the same way Allen Iverson probably studied Michael Jordan while in college. How many designers take the time to do this?

Here is my solution, plain and simple and easy.

No I do not say hire people with no experience, of course not. Hire those that actually know what they are doing and have a passion to acutally make things better, sure that new kid may not at first know how to write a full design document, but can he tell you why his game would work, how much time it should take and a recommended engine? Why couldnt something like writing a design document be something that is taught to him by a senior designer who is not there to change the kid's design around but to help him clean it up and at the same time TRAIN him into writing the proper documents? I mean since when is game designing not considered Art? Music companies send their artists to voice instructors all the time to help them improve themselves, why cant junior designers be trained in document writing by senior designers in the same way and when they become a senior designer you then can have them move on to larger projects while using that trainer to bring in the next junior designer? Who says you have to start out making a game that costs in the millions? Why not start him out on a small project, if he is a good designer, he should have something that can fit small projects. I for one have MANY projects that can be done in under a year on cheap engines like the Serious Sam engine. The only difference is how the engine is being used. You mean to tell me you couldnt pump out a Contra, Ikari Warriors or Metal Slug clone done in a FPS form on the Serious Sam engine with great character design and level design in under a year, seriously how do some of you people earn your checks? I mean again killing two birds with one stone, giving old school console gamers what they want, making a TRUE console FPS, while introducing younger gamers to a style of games they werent really around to see, while giving that old genre a 21st century facelift, and when that kid learns enough, then have you can have the confidence to move him on to whatever big project he or you might want him to work on till one day he gets enough trust from the company to do his Final Fantasy killer or such.



Once again I can be reached at Madnon@hotmail.com, cause dammit I need a job.

Now pardon me, I have to go finish my C&C clone followed by a nice slice of Quake Clone. Cause I could not imagine RTS makers making a RTS as cool as a Devil may Cry. Im sure most of those devs cant cook either. I mean how the hell nobody decided to make a great console RPG on great established stories like DC comics Kingdom Come crossover or Marvel's Infinity Gauntlet or even Wildstorm's Planetary says enough about the so called "vision and creativity" I mean why have these when you can make the latest D&D clone, what, comics arent as popular? Pfft. Sorry, I just think the ideals behind designing need a overhaul the size of Texas.

Edited by - Angelstar on January 10, 2002 1:37:49 AM

Edited by - Angelstar on January 10, 2002 1:42:04 AM