I like the idea of the mouse actually controlling the sword.

Slashing left and right with the mouse would cause the sword to slash left/right, or up/down, diagonally or whatever.

Left mouse button could lunge with the sword. Of course if you want to lunge high you would have to lunge and thrust the mouse upward. Lunge low, thrust mouse downward, etc.

Right mouse button would parry... if someone lunged at YOU, you would have to quickly parry the shot.

There could also be an option for raising a shield if you are equipped with one.

The response times of the sword would depend on the skill of the person wielding it and the characteristics of the sword itself. A rapier in the hands of an expert would respond with lightning speed... a longsword in the hands of a novice would be of little use beyond hacking at things until the skill of the user improved.

And yes, collision detection would be VERY important.


If you need to change orientation during combat or while holding the weapon, you could hold a pre-designated button.

I loved the concept of controlling the sword directly that "Die by the Sword" used, but there where several flaws. First I tried using the mouse, I always lost the feel for how far up or down the sword was, it was easy to slash left-right or right-left, but what I thought should be upper-left to bottom-right would end up being straight left-to-right. So I used the keyboard mostly. Another problem was the movement of the sword, it looked bloody limp-wristed. You would bring it back for an underhand swipe, at the end of the arc it would wobble for a half second. I''bve looked a bit at the quake-source for possibilities of a DbS like hand-to-hand fighting system.

---------
"It''''s always useful when you face an enemy prepared to die for his country. That means both of you have exactly the same aim in mind." -Terry Pratchett

I love the bushidoblade system. The real problem is the input device.

lol,

I wanna see someone make a game that requires you to use two 4 button mice and footpedals and voice recognition etc etc.

Then maybe you could do everything.

[edited by - kilj on May 6, 2002 9:32:30 PM]

the thing that worries me about this thread is that the original poster did not limit this to a particular sword fighting style. each style has something different required to make the game work well. (these will be very broad and i may lump some styles together that should not be, but you will get the idea).

fencing for instance needs percise control over the foil. movement is secondary and ussually only laterally anyway. a fencer is defensive by nature, thus the system needs a lot of defensive control. fighters pick at each other, puntures through organs render fighters finished quickly. ussually fights are somewhat long compared to other styles due to its defensive nature.

kendo/bushido and the other japanese style with a katana or boken (or other curved/straight edged two hand sword) is more of an offensive art. movement is key. being able to push the sword away is a given in all styles, but with kendo counterattacks are meant with swift counter-counterattacks. there are no movements which are purely defensive. all movements turn into ocunterattack, even a parry or block. matches a short and fast. a single cut, will ussually render the oponent unable to continue (death or severly handicapped and would lose anyway). most fights are for only 3 or 4 movements total. granted if a boken was used, matches would last somewhat longer, but any blow to the head results in death. blows to the limbs would result in fractues or breaks. thus the boken is pretty lethal as well.

broadsword, much different weapon. more direct attacks with large swings. not much in the way of parries or defense. a "simple" style that relies on brute strength rather purly speed like the other two styles.

of course we have not even toughed upon the styles that allow two swords. dealing with (un)sheathing the sword, etc. this would amke things even more difficult. because just unsheathing the sword can lead to an attack.

so i suggest a good idea is to condense this into handling a particular style of fighting with a sword. it will make things easier to discuss since you will only have to worry about the specifics of the one style. later you can generalize it to fit other styles or modify it. i though bushido blade gave an excellent control interface. i alos liked the fact that there were no health bars, increasing the realism and tension.

i also feel that you should learn how to use a sword before coming up with an interface. you will understand better what is required to get the correct feel for gameplay. pressing buttons on the screen is a terrible idea. instant response is lost. bushido blade was well thought and and worked well. the best interface i have ever used in a sword fighting game. it was very responsive, simple, and covered the major things that you can do with the sword. controlling the sword with the mouse is very poor because you cant feel the weight of the sword as it moves through the air. gonna use kendo as an example for the next part: the slightest movement of the right hand can adjust the entire angle of attack (because in kendo you use the left (lower) hand for swing, and the right hand (upper) for direction control). also because of how light the sword is, one handed use is possible (though not as effective). since all swings come from the almost the same position, it is difficult to allow free movemnet of the sword for accurate input by the user, unless you have some sort of tactile feedback device. moevment should flow easily, but if swung incorrectly the sword will wobble and overly seem heavier then it should because of the loss of balance.

quote:

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Original post by smitty1276
I like the idea of the mouse actually controlling the sword.

Slashing left and right with the mouse would cause the sword to slash left/right, or up/down, diagonally or whatever.

Left mouse button could lunge with the sword. Of course if you want to lunge high you would have to lunge and thrust the mouse upward. Lunge low, thrust mouse downward, etc.

Right mouse button would parry... if someone lunged at YOU, you would have to quickly parry the shot.

There could also be an option for raising a shield if you are equipped with one.

The response times of the sword would depend on the skill of the person wielding it and the characteristics of the sword itself. A rapier in the hands of an expert would respond with lightning speed... a longsword in the hands of a novice would be of little use beyond hacking at things until the skill of the user improved.

And yes, collision detection would be VERY important.


If you need to change orientation during combat or while holding the weapon, you could hold a pre-designated button.

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I agree, mouse-sword systems are the most natural interface come up with yet. The issue being that without preset moves, you have to have damn good collisioning for it to look convincing.

you do realise that the maths of this kind of sword fighting would be kinda hard to do... like moment of inertia, strain on sword blade, etc.

again, flame me if im talking out of someplace unusual...



die or be died...i think

Daggerfall used a mouse controled sword system. All different overhead chops and thrusts. Tho I don't think it made for very good sword play. I am not sure if FPS is ideal for this type of game, since even the robust sword mechanics of Bushido Blade failed to be exciting or effective in FPS mode.





[edited by - darkpunk on May 6, 2002 12:51:33 AM]

I studied European fencing for a year in college, one semester rapier/epee and one semester sabre (in a mixed Hungarian/Italian style of fencing), and I took Aikido for a year which has some heavy elements of swordplay with the bokken (and sometimes we got to play with the Suburi and shinai too). I''ve also picked some escrima/kali from my filipino friends and tito (that''s an honorary or real uncle to filipinos) in which you learn some Espada Y Daga (sword and dagger) techniques even though it is primarily a stick fighting style. Other weapon training I''ve done is with the Jo staff from Aikido, and long Bo staff from Vovinam (which is a Vietnamese style....in case you''re wondering, I''ve studied Shotokan/Vovinam, Aikido, Choy Li Fut primarily, and also picked up some Wing Chun, Tai Chi and Bagua along the way, as well as play wrestling).

So, from a real life perspective, if you want to give a different flavor to your game, you really have to understand the weapon, and you have to understand the school of thought. The first really influences the latter however. For example, look at the rapier...it is a fast elegant weapon used to stap your opponent. It is not meant for cutting or slashing, and it can not penetrate armor. In Japanese swordplay, the katana was a cavalry weapon...it was issued to Samurai on horseback and was designed to be a slashing weapon for which its slight curve was well suited. Also, the Japanese swordsmiths were geniuses in developing a blade which was simultaneously razor sharp, could keep its edge, be hard, but not so stiff as to be brittle...truly a marvel in metallurgical skills unsurpassed by anyone in the world. But the katana is a relatively heavy weapon compared to other sabre like weapons and requires much more forethought before committing to a strike.

For the filipinos, they preferred sticks to swords, although they were deadly with swords (as the Japanese learned to their chagrin in WWII...as some Kris were the match of Japanese swords) too. But they liked sticks for several reasons, namely, you could find them anywhere, they were very fast and light, and it is much harder to heal from a broken bone than a cut (and the shock/pain factor of a crushing blow is more insidious and dehabilitating than a cut, even a severe one....deep cuts hurt and sting, but if you''ve ever bumped your pinky toe into a wall, than you know what I mean).

The real trick will be in controlling sword movements. I suppose you could do the arcade/console thing and have button macros to perform certain moves. The other possibility is to have some sort of AI routine that translates mouse/key movements into sword movements in a non-programmed way. That way you can flow from one move to the next, even in mid-movement. For example, lets say that you want to make a horizontal slash, but your opponent has a faster weapon and is making a vertical overhead cut. You can then move the mouse in a manner that turns the strike into an overhead parry. Of course, being able to animate this freeflow style will introduce another set of diffuculties (animations are "fixed" and are not fluid....that''s the holy grail of animation, and hopefully a smarter version of Inverse Kinematics or Forward Kinematics can solve that)

I think this would require some training with the player...and in many ways would really be like learning how to do a martial art on the PC. The AI routine would use Genetic Algorithms to see and recognize what the player is doing, thereby each player would have their own unique way of performing certain movements.

I would recommend against attempting to directly translate the mouse movements into sword movements. As someone mentioned, Die By the Sword never felt quite right, the sword seemed to wobble about all over the place, and you never got the feel of it being a weapon with real weight and power behind it.

I reckon a good approach would be to use a gesture recognition system. You use the mouse to trace a gesture which then gets translated into a move. The important thing is that the move does not necessarily follow the exact motion of the mouse, but the gesture should be relatively intuitive to the end result.

e.g: The user traces a vertical slash across the screen. The character onscreen responds by moving the sword into position and slashing his opponent. The user then draws a vertical spike on the screen, representing a stab - on completing his slash move the character brings the sword back and impales his target.

In addition to the basic moves, it would be possible to implement combos - certain moves might fit well together, others might not. A great deal depends on the weapon of course, heavier weapons will give you more overswing and will be harder to move into position for a second strike, resulting in fewer combos, but successful hits do a lot of damage.

yes, well.

you''ve got to have some kind of thing to at least dampen the "wobble". that was terrible

wobble....

is bad....

where''s my coffee....

....

die or be died...i think

BLADE OF DARKNESS

Look around:
Mouse movement

Movement:
W (forward)
S (backward)
A (circle left)
D (circle right)

Lock/unlock enemy:
Tab

Dodge:
Right mouse button + left or right

Attack:
Left mouse button
Different attacks can be made by using direction keys in combination with left mouse button.

Block:
Ctrl

Cycle weapon (character can have 4 different weapons at a time):
Mouse wheel up

Cycle shield (character can have 3 different shields at a time):
Mouse wheel down

Throw:
Hold Q to increase launch power, press Left mouse button to throw

Bow:
Hold down Left mouse button, aim, release button to fire

(there are more options, but these are the ones that are relevant to combat. Also, most commands can be redefined to user liking)

COMBAT IN BLADE OF DARKNESS

Character notices enemy. Character approaches enemy, possibly throws a ranged weapon. Character locks on to enemy (locking can be set to auto-mode).

To attack, the character uses left mouse button. This results in the most basic of attacks. Character can make different attacks by using the direction keys in combination with the left mouse button (LMB). Left + LMB = ''backhand'' slash. Up + LMB = overhead slash. Some attacks require the direction key to be pressed at the same time as LMB, some require some timing, in that the keys are pressed in succession.

To defend, you simlpy press CTRL. That''s it. Your shield can absorb a certain amount of damage before splintering apart. Of course, you can avoid getting hit altogether by moving around and using the DODGE ability (RMB + left/right). There are even special combos that allow a character to attack right after a succesful dodge.

Each character has its own special attacks.
These attacks are weapon and/or level (characters gain experience and levels by killing enemies) dependent.

Some weapons have one or more special attacks.

Each attack uses a certain amount of energy. Energy replenishes quickly, but when too many energy extensive attacks are carried out in succession, the character will have to catch its breath, leaving it extremely vulnerable to enemy attacks.

VIEW

I''ve found that the overhead (camera place behind and slightly above character) works best. You see you character, his outfit, weapon and possibly his shield. You see the enemy in front of him.

COMBAT REVIEW
Attacking is more a matter of succesfully completing the combos than it is a matter of finding a weakness in your opponent''s defense.

The engine does do a good (decent?) job at handling multiple opponents.

Of course, this particular engine has not been designed to ONLY handle combat. There is also an adventuring mode (walking through virtual world, dealing with objects, climbing, jumping and running). I wonder what they could''ve done with it if it would''ve been a pure combat game. I think they would''ve needed to revamp it a lot, to come a little closer to the combat experience of Bushido Blade.