Lessons from a Full Sail Game Design Failure

Yes, never underestimate the value of a good education.

- Hun Yen Kwoon

Talkin'' ''bout! *phillips*

There''s no shame in failing a few classes here and there....and there again....as long as you learn something.

For those considering a school like Full Sail, make sure this is the industry you really want to be in first. Then determine if you really want to spend the money for the knowledge. Keep in mind a LOT of the people already in the industry were self taught....and that the game industry is not yet "College Degree Required" (but it IS starting to get that way).

-DeathSun X
http://deathsun.deviantart.com

interesting artical, makes a good point about being prepaired. I''d be interested in hearing back from someone who has graduated (or close to) from fullsail.


This artical has got me interested in going to one of these collages. I''m currently enrolled at snow south (a little no name collage in the middle of no where), but I''m realy disapointed with this place. They have no real programming classes (intro to c++/java/vb are about it), crappy computers (133mhz pentiums with 32mb ram & 1gig hds). The only reason I''m even at this collage is because its the only one around for about 150-200 miles or so. I''ve been saving up some cash to go somewhere else and I figure if I''m going to go through the expence of relocating and what not, I might as well go somewhere like this.

How advanced do the classes get? (pong? mario bros(snes)? quake2/3, seriouse sam? doom3? =>)

I''ve requested an info packet from them, but I''d rather hear what a student has to say (less bullshit).

I read the article and I'd like to give my 2 cents about Full Sail. I came extremely close to getting into the game dev program there at Full Sail. They wow you with a flashy campus, the best equipment, and the lure of "Real World Education". But when I started doing my homework on the situation, I noticed a few things. First off, when you go to their website... and check the section that lists all the grads and where they are now... count how many game grads you see on there. I can count them on one hand. Considering the amount of people in the other programs that have found great jobs in their respective fields... i find this lack proof to be a little fishy. I tried to ask my admissions rep about this and he honestly looked very uncomforable, and gave me some BS about how they were in the process of updating the website. Keep in mind this conversation between us happened about a year and a half ago.
I'm not trying to say the program is completely bad. But i think the school specifically feeds off of those "dreamer" types who want to make games... but don't want to dedicade years to put into the pursuit of knowledge that is required to get into the industry. I say this only because they almost got me... and I just want to post a warning to any people who are considering the program. It could be the biggest, and one of the most expensive mistakes a person could make.
Any questions? E-mail me at miketavius@hotmail.com

UPDATE - check out this url to see what i was talking about...
http://www.fullsail.com/fs1/news/current/scoop_gom.cfm

[edited by - miketavius on February 11, 2003 12:41:24 AM]

quote:

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I find it very hard to trust an article written by someone who couldn't even pass a basic math course or C++. If he couldn't make it at Full Sail then there's no chance in hell he'd make it in the industry. They weeded him out just like he should have been.

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What exactly do you distrust? I have nothing to hide. I even post my email for questions.

quote:

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couldn't even pass a basic math course or C++

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I passed both, if you read it correctly. And with much effort. Hmm, are you an inside/underground marketer from Full Sail, that you would post anonymously? Possibly, an instructor or former associate? A pink bunny?

If so, let it be known that I still approve of Full Sail (as stated in the article). I've learned much from Arthur, Wendy, Chuck, and Shane. They, and many others have my utmost respect, deservingly so. Some of my most fruitful moments in learning were spent in their classrooms. They work hard and make it as fun as possible for the students.

The basic math courses as you stated, are indeed basic (algebra 2, linear algebra/trig, physics). What makes them not so basic is the speed at which they go (see article). Hence, the name of the school, "Full Sail". I knew this coming in, and had all the help I could attain. But my effort combined with the help was proving to be, not enough for me, and I speak only of myself. Individual results do vary. Know thyself .

Pertaining to me being "weeded out", I left Full Sail voluntarily. Full Sail was supportive, encouraging me to come back and keep going, in Game Design and Development or even in a different program.

I thank you for your "weeded out" comment. It serves as excellent motivation to prove to you and other doubters that I do belong in the game industry.

"A shortcut is the longest distance between two points." -- Unknown

[edited by - Gamersez on February 28, 2003 1:21:04 PM]

Just to get it out of the way, I haven't graduated from Full Sail yet. As the author stated, the learning environment at Full Sail, is at the very least, intense.

You are expected to progress from "Hello World" to multiple inheritance and polymorphism in two months. Windows and MFC is a one month class and Math and Physics is spread over two months.

However, I attend class everday with students who have never had an advanced math course, or previous programming experience. I myself just turned 18 earlier this month, and have only had basic keyboarding/office computer classes.

Classes are taught by professionals who have years of experience in the industry. The material that they cover has been well researched to ensure that students get the most valuable information possible.

Full Sail has been around for more than twenty years. The reason that the graduate list of people currently in the gaming industry is shorter than the other degrees, is only due to the fact that the Game Design course is a recent addition to the available degrees at Full Sail.

I am appalled at some of the statements the author made, and hope that people aren't turned away from Full Sail due to his biased remarks. If anyone has any questions about the school feel free to direct them towards me.

For more prompt replies, I can be reached either in the GameDev IRC channel (Sages) or at anthony_whitaker@hotmail.com.

[edited by - Sages on February 12, 2003 1:55:25 AM]

Yes there are other courses that you''ll have to take at Full Sail, however the primary courses that weed students out are the ones listed above. Approximately half of the students will fail in C++ atleast once.

I''m currently enrolled in the game design program at fullsail and have been for the past 12 months. Final project starts 3 weeks woot! Anyway for those intrigued or maybe putoff by this article let me give you some basic facts about what I think fullsail offers to prospective students.

First let me give you some background information on myself. I was basically in the same boat as this guy comming out of High School being that I never attended classes and took NO classes to prepare me of college. In a nutshell I was "Not college bound" at that point in my life. I had never programmed anything in my life unless you count html and just for the record I don''t .

So back to what I think of fullsail. Well fullsail is what you make out of it more or less. The school has some incredible lab instructors and teachers. The only problem with the school is not how good the game design curriculium is but how small it is compared to the entire 14 month education. You waste at least 25% of your classes doing nothing related to programming in my opinion. That time could sure be used in math or C++. Even some programming classes lack priorities and directions while others are so good you want more. The classes are CONSTANTLY changing and that itself breeds problems.

I feel very sorry for this guy who posted this article cause he''s not the only one. Out of 24 people who started the same month as me only 7 people are still with us. I certainly don''t recommend this school to those who are not EXTREMELY dedicated. And trust me that dedication will be TESTED *cough* SGD *cough* . Just don''t get the impression that not anyone can do it cause in my opinion they can.

P.S - Another common misconception about fullsail is you walk in knowing nothing and you will graduate 14 months later with a programming job in the game industry. Truth is it''s just not that easy to get in industry. Fullsail gives you the groundwork of an education it''s what you do with it while your here and after you graduate.

Hope that helped anyone,

Any age can attend full sail, but a High School Diploma or equivalent is required.

[edited by - Sages on February 12, 2003 2:53:35 AM]

No,
Simply put a lot of it my be common sense but theres just enough worthless garbage in those classes that you don''t know nor ever want to know to make it difficult to test out of.

Also going in I wasn''t sure what to expect from those classes and to test out of any class at fullsail I believe you have to do it before you start your first class. Could be wrong on that though, but I''m pretty sure.

Would the FullSail game design program be useful at all for someone with a MS in Computer Science with some game programming experience on the side? Why / why not? IF so, would it be worth the amount of money they are asking for that little bit extra knowledge and support they can provide?

Sponz

In order to test out of a class you must do it before you start your first class, and "Mini-School" is only two months for game design students now. You''ll Learn the basics of sound and light, the history of computers, and a course to get you prepared for college life (go Maslow).

It's 2:16am on a Wednesday. I'm in my second week of classes at Full Sail and have a lab in 2 hours and 34 minutes. Yeah, you heard me. The craziest part is that I just got back from a lab an hour and a half ago. Yeah... crazy. The hours are insane and I'm only in my second week of general education. Being enrolled in the computer animation program, I see my hours being less "crazy" once my core classes start. Having a late and then early lab is a coincidence that has, unfortunately, happened more than once. I have a friend who is in the game design program and she just started C++ this month. She has C++ MWF from 5pm to 1am and Entertainment Business TR from 1pm to 5pm.

Anyway, I chose to go to FS after attending a local university for a semester, majoring in Computer Science. It just wasn't for me though. The whole atmosphere and monotony of the courses was boring me. I originally was going to do the digital media program at FS, but I felt I wouldn't get much from it (check out my website www.zeroinfinity.net and you could understand where I'm coming from). I settled on Computer(3D) Animation because I'm not very good at it and it's something that I would like to be ridiculously awesome at. On the first day of class the course director for CA gave us some homework... to watch T.V. and study the camera angles. I thought that was a pretty good idea. I'm really looking forward to starting my core classes and think that, based on the 1.5 weeks I've been here, the next 14 months will definitely be worth my time and effort.

An interesting thing to note: In my lab tonight the instructor told a story about a student who got a job at Skywalker Ranch working a new audio console two weeks after he graduated. At the open house the director of the game design program told us about a game developer graduate from last year who wanted to work at Rainbow Studios. FS got him an interview, even though they weren’t hiring (and when they are, they only hire people with a B.S. or higher in Comp Science according to the GD director). They ended up creating a position so that they could hire him, he was that good. On the flipside, I also have heard stories of people who went through the school, graduated, and now work at McDonalds and K-Mart. I believe the difference between the two scenarios is not necessarily skill level, but motivation. It falls back on the whole "you get out what you put in" cliché and that's what it's all about at Full Sail. They give you the tools, and you have to use them.

As a final thought, the energy level at the school is off the charts. Everyone there wants to succeed and follow their dreams and you can feel that when you talk to other students. The instructors are very down to earth and have extremely positive "go get um" attitudes. The vibe is just awesome. The only caveat is that you need to have a lot of self-motivation and dedication, but if you have that, you can use the skills they give you and make your dreams a reality.

Feel free to e-mail me or reply with questions.

edit: my email is clash@zero3456infinity.net --- REMOVE THE NUMBERS FROM THE DOMAIN NAME BEFORE YOU SEND THE MESSAGE:D

[edited by - clash on February 12, 2003 3:19:31 AM]

There is a guy in my class that has a masters in computer science and 5 years experience in the field. He says that the knowledge he is getting from Full Sail is unparalleled at the other places he''s been. I personally think Full Sail is well worth the money. Hope that helps.

There is a guy in my class that has a masters in computer science and 5 years experience in the field. He says that the knowledge he is getting from Full Sail is unparalleled at the other places he''s been.

I personally think Full Sail is well worth the money, primarily because Full Sail has life time job placement assistance and life time auditing. Hope that helps.

Currently of my 7 classmates 3 have BS's in Computer Science. In my opinion Full Sail is the perfect place for those which extensive prior programming education to learn how to become game programmers. Depending on your experience level you may become frustrated by the depth that some classes delve into (my roommate has a BS). However at fullsail you have access to people with a lot of knowledge and you can learn a lot from them.

Is it worth the 36K tuition and 20K living expenses for a year for someone with a MS thats really up to you. I would try to test out of a lot of the classes and start up at about SGD (Structures of Game Design) which is the first real good game class that goes over DirectX and creating 3 complete games from scratch. That is about half the curriculum you would be skipping and probably save you a lot of money.

Most of the graduates from full sail who get the best jobs are those who come in with a B.S already. I bet you don't see that in the manual


[edited by - Valheru on February 12, 2003 3:22:22 AM]

Full Sails job placement rate is over 80%. The majority of the students will get a job in the game industry within six months after graduation. Not many schools can offer that to their students.

Thanks for the replies! I''ve been thinking about going to FullSail for a long time, but continued my MS program anyway, and in about one and a half years i should finally have it. Miketavius already pointed me to the list of grads on the move that doesnt list many game dev grads about a year ago, and I stopped wondering about FullSail, ''knowing'' it would be bad for me and my wallet..
I''ve started a lot of game dev projects with friends and peepz i met on gamedev or another site, but there are ALWAYS people who have something coming up in RL.. and have to cancel the project. At FullSail that can''t really happen, right? So thats a big plus too. If its true that a lot of the FullSail students already have a BS or MS, I dont have to worry about being ''too old'' when i get there either. So my current plan would be to finish my MS, work for a year to get some money and a bit more C++ experience (cause my uni doesnt even teach me that.. djeez), and move to Florida if I still want to in 2 years. If iD or EA doesnt hire me before that time heh