3D Engine Programmer needed

*sigh*

Where can I download a copy of your design doc?

[edited by - drevil on March 1, 2004 2:23:17 AM]

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3) This is a volunteer-based position. No monetary compensation will be provided at any point during the development of the project, but payment arrangements may be made at the completion of the project for your contributions, either in the form of US dollars or royalties based on the sale of the completed product. You understand this and understand you will be required to agree and sign a contract should you choose to accept the position if it is offered to you.

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So let me get this, you want the person to sign a contract giving all his right to you without any promise of financial rewards up front.


Good luck.

HAHAYUAUYAYAYAAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!!!!!! OMG!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA SO FUNNY.

Oh damn i got a laughing pain reading that one, oberonqa keep up the good work.

oberonqa, seeing as its your first post -- People generally have little to no interest in building a game from start to finish for you. Before asking for help you should provide information on:

1. Previous successes, if any.

2. Your professional experience, if any.

3. Work completed on the current project, if any.

4. What part of the project you will be implementing or developing, and what part will be delegated.

5. A realistic design document. This sort of post is generally considered a joke here. Nearly daily somebody wants to sign up a group of programmers and artists to design their ground breaking new MMORPG with little specifications other than it will be kind of like every other game only better, and open ended too, oh and it will also have photo realistic graphics.

Bah, reading over that post again. This was probably a freaking joke. What a way to waste a few minutes. *grumble*

Booyah! Paydirt at last!

I can''t imagine myself needing a life for the next three years. I am a nerd afterall. *walks without swinging arms while making weird ''nyeh nyeeeeh'' noise*

With a contract like that, who needs Bubba?

Interesting replies here. I guess I should have spent more time coming up with the post. I'll attempt to answer your concerns.

"Where can I download a copy of your design doc?"

The design document is propriety and is not public domain nor is it open-source. As such, the only people who will see the design document are people who are a part of the project or people that I deem necessary to view parts of the document (core game audience).

"So let me get this, you want the person to sign a contract giving all his right to you without any promise of financial rewards up front."

Unfortunately, my statement about signing a contract must have been ambigious. The contract does not contain anything at all about signing away the programmers rights. The programmer maintains all rights to the work that he/she does. The contract serves the purpose of a Non Disclosure Agreement as well as a binding contract in terms of payment options (no game sale = no payment of any kind). But regardless of whether the game is made or not, anything the programmer does is his (or her) work and they maintain the rights to their work (including copyrighting and patenting.) Should the game be sold at any point during or after development, the programmer will receive a compensation package.

And more about me, as this seems to be a topic that is of some interest...

1) Previous successes, if any?

I am credited in three published game titles in a Quality Assurance capacity for the now defunct Westwood Studios. These games are:

Pirates: The Legend of Black Kat (PS2/XBOX)
Command and Conquer: Yuri's Revenge (PC)
Earth and Beyond (PC)

In addition to these published titles, I have worked on the following titles, though I am not credited.

Emperor: Battle for Dune (PC)
Command and Conquer: Renegade (PC)

2) Your professional experience, if any?

see above. Given my professional experience in the game industry along with what I have witnessed and learned, I believe I can make sound judgements in regard to the development and production of a commercial game.

3) Work completed on the current project, if any?

Basic storyline, character creation process, and assorted gameplay systems.

4) What part of the project you will be implementing or developing, and what part will be delegated?

I am in the role of Designer and Writer. As such, my responsibilities include designing and writing the story of the game, coming up with quests for players to go on, NPC dialogue, and other design issues. I will be delegating programming, artist, and musician roles to qualified individuals.

5) A realistic design document. This sort of post is generally considered a joke here. Nearly daily somebody wants to sign up a group of programmers and artists to design their ground breaking new MMORPG with little specifications other than it will be kind of like every other game only better, and open ended too, oh and it will also have photo realistic graphics.

This is not a MMORPG. It is an MMOAG (Massively Multiplayer Adventure Game). It is not like EverQuest or any other MMO I have seen on the market. It has as much in common with those games as cars have in common with bananas. As for a realistic design document, I am using a modular design philosophy (something akin to a document in outline form). As for providing the design document for anyone and everyone to read, this is not only an unrealistic request (for the reason I have mentioned earlier), it is foolhardy. I am interested in the creation of a commercial product that for all intent and purposes, does not have any competition. Releasing what I have designed for the masses to peruse at their leisure is simply counterproductive for the goals of the project. The design document will be readily available to those people who are members of the team or members of the target audience that I deem necessary.

I hope this clears up some confusion. And no... it is not a joke.





[edited by - oberonqa on March 1, 2004 3:47:11 AM]

[edited by - oberonqa on March 1, 2004 3:49:38 AM]

Haro, if you have a genuine interest in this, please send me an email (I would contact you, but your email address is not publicly available).

After taking some time to look over other posts on this forum, it seems that very few people have what is commonly referred to as "professional courtesy" (for whatever reason). Your posts on the other hand, give the impression of having this courtesy.

That said, if you have a genuine interest or would simply like to ask me some more questions to learn more about me and/or the vision I have for this project, please don''t hesitate to email me. I don''t plan on coming back to this forum again, so any post to this thread will not be read or replied to.

In any case, thank you for being polite as well as up front in a tactful manner as to what you would like to know rather than allowing misplaced arrogance to dictate your methods of communicating with others.


-David Reese
lordcorenair@netscape.net

Just out of interest : if you are planning on develloping a commercial game and you have contacts in the buisness allready (as you stated) - why would you go on this forum looking for programmers ? Isn't it more logical to check with the people you know - having such a background you should probably be more likely to find competent people within your adress-book than in this forum.

[EDIT] i dont wanna be mis-understood : i'm not saying there arent any competent people on this forum - i'm just saying they probably arent likely to join your project, knowing so little of you or the project [/EDIT]

[edited by - MonkeyInBlack on March 2, 2004 7:27:02 AM]

Well, I''d say he is going to give us a chance to join in.
(So we can tell our own ''your dreams will become true'' stories here )
Sounds nice, btw.
At least post information about the game if your work proceeds, so we can be jealous of not having taken this chance

BlackHC

You basically want to do the fun part of the game and have everyone else do the work of making it. There are hundreds of people on here who have good concept and design ideas AND have another skill to contribute to the project. Most people are here because they love games and want to put their game ideas out into the world and have some skill to contribute to a project. Although it''s true that most professional projects, will have a full time "designer" for the game, in most hobby projects, if you want say in the game design, you have to pull your weight in developing it, instead of just "delegating". Not to be mean, but I think it''s rather unrealistic to think that you can start a project out of no where with just game design ideas and get other people to do all the work for you, no matter how professional make yourself sound. If really you want to design your own games, learn to program or make 3d art or some other useful game making skill. If you just want to do straight design work, join an already established company with the funds to hire a full time designer.

Well, I know I said I wouldn''t respond to posts to this thread, but it seems I''m still getting email updates whenever someone posts something. That said, I can''t very well ignore the posts if I know about them. ;-)

So, let''s address what''s been said...

MonkeyInBlack - I came to this forum because it was referred to me by a couple of friends I made while at Westwood Studios (who have already moved on into other projects at other companies.)

BlackHC - Whether or not I post updates on this forum depends soley on the users of the forum. So far (at least until I seperated myself from the gaggle of other designers by actually having game industry experience) I haven''t been received all that warmly, as you can see for yourself by the tone of the other posts. As I have stated, a lot of people on these forums lack "professional courtesy" and seem to be under the impression that they are better than others for a variety of reasons. I can''t fault them for their arrogance, but an arrogant attitude burns more bridges than it creates. In my opinion, such an attitude is counter-productive. I''ll put this another way. If I was the Lead Designer at a commercial company and I interviewed some of these people for a position, I wouldn''t offer them a job, regardless of their qualifications. The development of a game is a team effort and arrogance has no place in the game development process.

Subconscious - Aside from designing games, I am a Graphic Designer with extensive experience in Photoshop. I also have a BA in this field. That said, I can do more than just "do the fun part" as you so elequently put it. I also have a basic understanding of C++, so I can read code (though I am not confident enough to actually program something of this magnitude.)

As for the role of being a designer, there is more to it than just writing. A designer typically is involved in designing level geometry as well as using script engines to develop "scenarios". A good designer is actually a jack of all trades. Some designers I have known also get conscripted into aiding with the creation/application of model textures.

So to say that I''m interested in "doing the fun part" while delegating the work out to everyone else is a gross understatement, to say the least. I will also say that in my time at Westwood Studios, not a single designer I met or worked with was hired soley because of their ability to write well. Most of the designers who worked at Westwood Studios came from another field (programming, art, music, etc). Some of them even came from the Quality Assurance department. So the concept of "straight design work" is a misconception, as there is no such thing as "straight design work". That is, unless you are the owner of a major development house and have the luxory of doing so (which was how Earth and Beyond started, by the way.)


-David Reese
lordcorenair@netscape.net

oberonqa, i dont think you should be put off by arrogant members of this community, nor judge the entire pool of talent that this site has, based on these few wreckless posters.


and to the wrekless posters, we have lost so much talent, because of similar repeat offenses, we cant afford this especially because they are people who were prepared to help. eg. S1CA had such a wealth of knowledge, but a few went too far and we have lost him. Now is NOT a time to be driving away people like oberonqa, especially after the shocking loss of our own carmak equivilant; Yann L.

Pull your heads in, THINK BEFORE YOU POST.

{EDIT: Formatting]

[edited by - silvermace on March 3, 2004 1:41:59 AM]

quote:

---

Original post by oberonqa
I am credited in three published game titles in a Quality Assurance capacity for the now defunct Westwood Studios. These games are:

Pirates: The Legend of Black Kat (PS2/XBOX)
Command and Conquer: Yuri''s Revenge (PC)
Earth and Beyond (PC)

In addition to these published titles, I have worked on the following titles, though I am not credited.

Emperor: Battle for Dune (PC)
Command and Conquer: Renegade (PC)

---

Let''s see. Only one of those games is a MMORPG. But at least one is already good.

What about that "QA capacity" you speak of? The reason I''m asking is, it means different things in different companies. Were you involved in any significant coding, or was it mostly a "playtesting" QA variety?

Also, a point of clarification... How is the team to be organized? Is it going to be collaborating over the Interenet, as most teams around here get assembled? If that is the case, it''s going to be really tough to organize work.

Or maybe personal presence will be required? If that is the case, you would need to specify your location and keep in mind that the visitors of this board are not only located all over the United States, but also there are plenty of talented programmers from Europe. If you need to assemble the team in one place, geographically, it would be good to specify that.


Phlegmatic Weasel

Also, is this you?

Mobygames Rap Sheet


Phlegmatic Weasel

I wasn't even aware of the MobyGames rap sheets. Guess you learn something every day. Anyway, to answer your question, that is me. Though my middle initial is "L" and not "J". After looking at that rap sheet, I pulled out Pirates and Yuri's Revenge. I am listed in the manuals as "David Reese", not "David J Reese".

Additionally, I did not get into the game industry until 2001. While I wish I could take credit for the other games that rap sheet credits me for, I can't (as I was still in high school in 1994).

What probably happened is there was a guy at Ion Storm and/or ORIGIN whose name is "David J Reese" who worked on those titles and then fell off the industry radar screen. Then I come into the industry in 2001 and do my thing and MobyGames figured it was the same person.

So, to make a long story short, I'm known as "David Reese" or "David L Reese". I have never been affiliated with any other game company besides Westwood Studios.

As for the "QA Capacity" I spoke of, I was involved in a multi-role capacity. I was originally hired in a playtester/data entry role for Earth and Beyond. However, over the course of my tenure at Westwood, I ended up doing a variety of things including database administration, data analysis, as well as playtesting. Westwood used FileMaker Pro as their database software (which I never even heard of until I worked there), so I ended up giving myself a crash course in that software package in about a week. I only mention that to highlight my ability to learn new things quickly and apply them in an effective manner.

I am most proud of my work on Earth and Beyond. While I never was able to get into a design capacity (largly due to inter-office politics), myself (and the handful of other internal QA testers assigned to the project) effected numerous changes to various aspects of the game (we were empowered with the ability to make suggestions on changes as well as new ideas for the game.)

As for how the team will be organized, it will be organized over the internet. Work will be done whenever team members can get work done (as we all have jobs that we need to support ourselves). Weekly progress must be made though and this will be shown in the form of progress reports and/or code.

Now, I am going to make a stand here. So far, I haven't seen anyone email me regarding this project. The only thing I've been doing here is answering questions about myself, producing credentials (and validating them) and other background-oriented questions. While I don't mind doing this (as it is important to know who you are dealing with), I am getting a little upset with the fact that I seem to be stuck in the "prove thyself" mode. Not to mention the fact that the only thing left I can do is provide my resume, complete with references and all. And before one of you decides to ask, I am not willing to post my resume. Thats something you guys should be sending me, not the other way around. To put this in a different context, would you demand a resume from the person interviewing you for a position?

That said, I think we can all agree I've satisfied any requirement as to who I am and what experience I have as. Let's move forward from now on, ok? I can spend the next couple of weeks answering people's questions about what I did on a game or who I worked with or even what kind of soda designer X drank while designing a gameplay system for game Y. In the end, it's not exactly productive. Either you guys can accept what I've said and move forward from there or you can continue the seemingly endless cycle of learning more about the person behind the handle. In any case, it's going to stop. Your wasting not only your time, but my time as well. And I really am running out of patience trying to produce enough evidence to show I'm serious about my work and what I'm doing.

So take what I've given you at face value or don't. It's your choice. Either way, let's move forward and put an end to the current trend.


-David Reese
lordcorenair@netscape.net

[EDIT] I have contacted MobyGames and the rap sheet page has been seperated into two seperate pages. One for me (David Reese) and one for David J Reese (we are actually two seperate people) ;-) [/EDIT]

[EDIT 2] Also, I am only looking for one programmer right now. I have not reached the point to where I need artists. A good idea of what the engine is going to be is required before I begin looking for artists to draw concept art.

[edited by - oberonqa on March 3, 2004 3:20:22 PM]

[edited by - oberonqa on March 3, 2004 3:29:55 PM]

Hi David,

I tried to email you, but one of our email servers is not playing nice. Most likely mine, I think my host got themselves blacklisted for being spammers. (In the process of changing hosts.. i hate spammers...) I will try from my other server when I get home.

Anyway, I will make a point here, as it might be relevent to others trying to start an ambitious project. And is related to why many people tend to scoff at these kinds of projects

The most important I think is the idea of developing a complete game engine from the ground up. For an MMOG, creating an engine from the ground up is a mammoth undertaking. For a new group/label on a volunteer project, this is something that I don''t feel is a reasonable goal if you plan on shipping anytime this decade. Not because it''s not viable for a team of amateurs to do it, but because it''s not viable to keep a team of amateurs focused on a complex project for long periods of time with little to show, and no money. You will find that a volunteer project is an entirely different animal than what you have experienced at Westwood.

For this reason, I think it is imperative to get a solid prototype as quickly as possible. Having something to show for their efforts, and being able to see their extensions work in a prototype will help morale and motivation, and keep member turnaround low. Be it open source, or an inexpensive commercial engine, whatever, I think a third-party game engine would work best. Atleast to get to prototype. The process of getting from concept to prototype will reveal many unforseen problems and pitfalls in designing the engine for the genre variation. Atleast when you get to that point you will be able to re-evaluate your plan, and decide if an existing solution is appropriate or if you really need a proprietary engine. If you decide you need a proprietary engine, you will have a much better idea of how it needs to be designed.

The choice of the game engine is becoming less and less important, as most are reaching a point where the graphics, sound, etc can be acceptable for any game, and scene management is customizable and extensible, the only major subsystem you would likely need to modify is the networking layer. Gameplay is king, and to make a great game, you need to spend as much time on the actual game/gameplay and content as possible, and less time on the engine, so as not to be dragged down by rewriting things that countless have already written.

That being said, I might be interested in working with you if that is something that you are flexible on. I like the general idea of the game you are proposing, the little you have revealed, but I don''t particularly fancy writing an MMOG from the ground up with no resources and no guaranteed compensation. I doubt you will find any serious developer who will take that on. I''ve been wrong before, though

Peace

I''ve actually been giving this some thought lately (both before I posted a position here and after) and it''s looking more and more like I''ll license out an engine rather than building it from the ground up for all the reasons you have mentioned (thank you, by the way, for being the only person aside from myself to actually think of this). hehe

I''ve looked at a couple of engines, but most of the engines I''ve seen are open source and I really don''t want to get involved in the open source arena. However, one paticular engine has caught my interest and it''s cheap enough to license to ensure I don''t go broke buying a license. The Torque engine (the engine I am referring to) is already a commercially viable engine and has been used in a number of commercial titles. It also has some pretty solid networking components that would require little or no modificiation.

Check it out if you want.

http://www.garagegames.com/pg/product/view.php?id=1

Anyway, I look forward from hearing from you in the future.

-David Reese
lordcorenair@netscape.net

Hi David,

Well it sounds like we might be on the same page, then

I am already a registered Torque developer, and have been working with the Torque engine for a little while. It is lacking some of the bells and whistles that the higher-end engines have like scriptable effects and shaders, though they can still be used through the native API interfaces.

It is also multi platform, with builds for Windows, Linux and Macintosh, though I have only personally tested it on Windows so far.

I''ve been using it to test some AI theories I have been working on for a while, and it seems to be pretty powerful. The scripting language makes it easy to test things without having to recompile; there''s not much you can''t do with the scripting language, and it''s easily convertable to C++ if speed becomes an issue.

Anyway, I''ll e-mail you when I get home (a few more hours) and we can discuss some more.

Peace