Critters? [RTS]

I like it. You could have complex interactions between critters. For example, a predator pack launches an attack against a herd causing a stampede which results in birds taking flight, dust clouds, the trampling of some of your infantry units and blowing your cover. Unpredictable, but you took that risk by staging too close to the herd. I'm sure others can think of more interesting interactions.

Will nests/dens play any part into the scheme?

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Original post by Nuget5555 Will nests/dens play any part into the scheme?

To add to that, will destroying nests/etc. cause the critters to stop spawning?

WarWind is a good one to look at for critters. Some of them are out in the open and ignore you until you aggrivate them (which happens easily). Some of them hide in the woods and eat your workers. Some of them can be tamed. Some of them just walk up and smash things. Too bad the rest of the game sucked.

Warcraft's 2 critters were pointless - leave 'em out if anything. WC3 made them feel more like a resource you needed - like gold that fought back. I think the best approach for neutral stuff is when its not just something you kill, but some thing you need to take over and control, like the neutral cities and towers in MoM. I still want to see a medieval war game that's about levying troops from the land and actually deals with the peasantry as something more than just "train peasants to go chop trees". They supply your food and your soldiers and work in your mines. They are weak and capturable and enslaveable. Fields can be burnt.

The RTS _Battle Realms_ had this sort of critter interaction with birds and horses. Birds would fly off sqawking and alerting your opponent, and horses could be tamed and used as mounts. Although they could impact the game, neither one was a 'gotta have it' thing like the creeps in WC3.

I guess some the little critters are OK, but I would like some bigger more dangerous things that you should leave well enough alone, like a dinosaur pack for example. However, in a desperate situation maybe you would just charge through the dinosaur pack in order to reach an objective quicker, or to hide from your pursuing opponent. In some miniatures games this is referred to as 'interactive terrain'

Gary

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Original post by CodeMunkie I like it. You could have complex interactions between critters. For example, a predator pack launches an attack against a herd causing a stampede which results in birds taking flight, dust clouds, the trampling of some of your infantry units and blowing your cover. Unpredictable, but you took that risk by staging too close to the herd. I'm sure others can think of more interesting interactions.

Yes, that's certainly a possibility. One thing I want to avoid though, is making random events play too large a part in the game. The critter interactions should be fairly low-key so that the player can concentrate primarily on strategy, rather than worrying too much about critters screwing it up. The critters are there to provide a bit of extra depth and detail for the more cunning players.

That said, it might be quite interesting if the player can trigger or take advantage of some of these more complex interactions himself. Perhaps deliberately starting stampedes and herding them towards his opponent might enable a player to cause some damage or confusion without even endangering his own units, or maybe a unit under attack from a predator could lead it towards a herd in order to take the heat off themselves.

Also, the idea of stampedes kicking up dust clouds is also nice touch, for a couple of reasons. Firstly, those dust clouds could provide additional cover for other units. Secondly, dust clouds might also be kicked up by vehicles moving across certain terrain... a player seeing a dust cloud may not be able to see what is making it, and may mistake a bunch of stampeding animals for an attack column, or vice versa.

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Original post by Nuget5555 Will nests/dens play any part into the scheme?

I wasn't planning to implement nests or dens as specific structures as such, but instead the map editor would designate certain regions of the map as being territories. The size of the territory would define the population, depending on the habits of the creature whose territory is being defined. Creatures wouldn't respawn once killed, so there'd be a finite number of critters to worry about. However, you might be able to destroy their habitat, by clearing forests etc, which would effectively drive them out or kill them.

If the critters behave complexly enough, using and spotting Dark Reign like scout units posing as critters could become an interesting part of the gameplay.

I like the idea of using stampedes as cover for an attack. Also just nice as a distraction. However I think that the advanced strategies using critters would be lost on most players unless interaction with the critters was very simple.

Its an interesting question and when do you draw the line at critters, are civilians critters? I think the meat of the argument is how those critters are used. For instance when I was younger I was designing an RTS game where one of the races where parasitic aliens. Which ment that until the later stages of the game you had to infect civilians or opposing troops to gain troops and a labour force. What made it interesting is that opponents could not tell who had been infected until later in the game when they developed parasite scanners. Basicly the parasites relied on stealth, guile and spreading discord to win.

But the question of critters depends entirly on how they can be used. Are critters a resource that can be used, or are they just moving art. For instance if your making a age of empires type game then, civilians could be netural. Meaning that you can't build workers instead who ever occupies a city or province can utilize the local inhabitents as a labour force. If its a more modern game, then you award a home ground bonous to which ever player is defending, however they are responsible for protecting civilians or critters when the opponents destroy civilians the defending player loses money.

Whatever you do, make sure herd animals RUN from everything. I think it is so unrealistic that in many of the contemporary RTS games your guys hunt and kill a deer, and while they're gutting it 5 more deer are within touching distance.

Otherwise, I think you're right on the money. It's what I want to implement once I get terrain and objects working. Natural acting realistic "critters"!

Take care.

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Original post by Sandman Starcraft: Critters have approximately zero impact on gameplay, their only purpose it seems is to get in the way.

When playing on Protoss you can use the Dark Archon to take control of a critter and use it to reveal the map :P

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Sandman asks:What do you think of critters in RTS games? How much impact do you think they should have on gameplay?

I think critters should be involved in 10%-20% of all tactics, and 10%-35% of all intelligence related (gathering, concealing, or disguising).

The criteria that I use to decide how much impact an element are to an RTS are, from most to least important:

1) Reliablility - Does a similar outcome result when the tactic is repeated in a similar situation? Do critters add tactics that are reliable? Do the same size of horde always make the same size of dust cloud? Does the dust cloud always form in predicted location?

2) Applicability - Can the tactic be applied in most situations in general gameplay. Do critters add tactics that can be used throughout the map, or just in special regions? How often are those regions used by the players?

3) Diversity - Is the tactic new, or can the player already do the same using some other means? What else could a player place as a lookout if there are no birds? What else could they have used as cover or disguise?

It would be neat if when birds are startled and they fly off that it would be visible even in the fog of war. If the terrain and all units are hidden in the fog of war, and an advancing army scares them into flight, you should be able to see the flock take flight over the top of the fog, so you know somethings up. You won't know exactly what it is obviously but it would be something neat to work them into the game a bit more.

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Original post by Sandman Birds Birds and other flying creatures are one of the more common types of critter. They are usually spawned in groups in suitable terrain, and tend to remain hidden, detectable only by their singing calls. If disturbed however, they fly off making a distinctive warning call, and can be seen and heard from some distance, which may to draw attention to whatever disturbed them…

In RTS games pathfinding is always picky. Is disturbing birds going to be a matter of hit detecting their region, or will you allow for some intermediary rule to determine if the birds take flight?

You could have scouts or other stealth units either automatically not trigger birds, or have some chance of not triggering them. If you're going for fast paced, I'd rather that scouts automatically not trigger. This way, if I know that a scout won't trigger the birds, I can intentionally trigger them by sending a regular grunt, in case I'm trying to do a ruse.

Btw, how many troops would it take to trigger a flight? If just one guy running around will do it, then it won't tell me much. However, if it takes at least X, then I'll have more info when I see it.

(I like the idea of being able to see them over the fog of war.)

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Herd animals Herd animals are sometimes found in the more open environments. They are spawned in groups in suitable terrain, and will just peacefully wander about the map in groups if left to their own devices. They generally ignore infantry units, and can be used as cover for an advance across open spaces.

If you can have units sneak among the herds, you might run into an automatic dominant strategy: Shoot at the herds continuosly just to disperse them. This could end up being makework whenever these creatures appear around high value locations. (Of course, they might not want to do this if their objective is stealth, but that depends on how much stealth is a factor in your game).

If there is some reason not to shoot the herds you'll take care of this. Maybe shooting at them causes them to charge? Not
realistic, but it may balance players who just mop them up.

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Predators Predators are large, carnivorous animals that may be lurking in any environment. Some predators are solitary, whereas others are spawned in hunting packs. They usually avoid contact with combat units – however, they may attack isolated and injured infantry that wanders into their territory. Predators in packs tend to be bolder than their solitary counterparts, and may even attack fairly large groups.

I think if you do this these creatures should have real punch, rather than just being a nuisance. Maybe implemented like the dogs in Red Alert, instakill on contact.

Then you could have a harsh tradeoff between open terrain and vehicles, and forests and creatures.

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Natives Natives are the local inhabitants of the area. They are generally spawned in groups around buildings, and tend to avoid combat where possible. However, they will defend themselves and their homes if attacked. Friendly natives may be able to provide players with useful information however, such as the locations of dangerous predators’ territories.

I like this, and the level of interactivity you can provide is pretty open. Peasants, for instance, who are sufficiently motivated could provide last known enemy troop locations (as an arrow with time or something), or even healing and restocking for units.

All in all, I like the idea of critters playing a more prominent role. Even dead critters, if they stick around for awhile (memory management willing) could provide evidence that your enemy was in the area.

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Original post by Anna When playing on Protoss you can use the Dark Archon to take control of a critter and use it to reveal the map :P

[smile] I can't remember for certain, but couldn't you do this with the Zerg Queen as well? I thought she had some kind of marker she could spit on enemy units that did the same thing.

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Original post by Nuget5555 I like the idea of using stampedes as cover for an attack. Also just nice as a distraction. However I think that the advanced strategies using critters would be lost on most players unless interaction with the critters was very simple.

You may be right, but I'm not sure that's really a problem, they'll lose some of their usefulness if they are too frequently exploited. In any case, I wouldn't expect *any* successful tricks to remain secret for very long while the internet is around.

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Original post by TechnoGoth But the question of critters depends entirly on how they can be used. Are critters a resource that can be used, or are they just moving art.

I see them more a resource, all though not in the common sense (ie, not as food with which to recruit more units - I'm not incorporating that kind of resource management at all)

For example, the birds are a subtle source of information, giving hints about the movements of enemy troops.

The herds can provide cover in open spaces, which is invaluable to the soft squishy infantry units who otherwise might get blown to smithereens by the big heavy tanks that dominate these areas. They can also cause confusion and damage with their stampedes, and who knows what other ways players might find to exploit them?

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Original post by Wavinator In RTS games pathfinding is always picky. Is disturbing birds going to be a matter of hit detecting their region, or will you allow for some intermediary rule to determine if the birds take flight?

I'm basically thinking along the lines of comparing the proximity and stealth level of the unit with the 'morale' of the bird.

A tank racing at full pelt will cause the birds to take flight from miles away, whereas the stealthier unit might not surprise it until he's right on top of it...

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You could have scouts or other stealth units either automatically not trigger birds, or have some chance of not triggering them. If you're going for fast paced, I'd rather that scouts automatically not trigger. This way, if I know that a scout won't trigger the birds, I can intentionally trigger them by sending a regular grunt, in case I'm trying to do a ruse.

As I've described it above, there's kind of a tradeoff. Grunts are more likely to scare the birds away, because they'll trigger them from a further distance. However, because they're further away, the position from which the birds flew does not give away their exact location so well.

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Btw, how many troops would it take to trigger a flight? If just one guy running around will do it, then it won't tell me much. However, if it takes at least X, then I'll have more info when I see it.

How much information do you think the birds should give away? As it is, they don't really provide that much clear information, in terms of what triggered them and where that thing is. They really just provide a hint: There's something lurking in that wood, or something is creeping through that long grass. It's then up to the observing player to decide how to deal with it. Redistribute his forces to cope with a possible threat from that direction? Redirect his artillery at that point? Launch an airstrike?

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I like the idea of being able to see them over the fog of war.

I'm not planning on implementing fog of war as such. The terrain and all major features will be completely known. However, only visible/detectable units will be shown on the map.

Fog of war doesn't make much sense in a high tech setting IMHO. [smile]

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If you can have units sneak among the herds, you might run into an automatic dominant strategy: Shoot at the herds continuosly just to disperse them. This could end up being makework whenever these creatures appear around high value locations. (Of course, they might not want to do this if their objective is stealth, but that depends on how much stealth is a factor in your game).

Hmm. Good point.

Although I expect stealth to be very important, combat will be taking place around objective buildings, and stealth will be pretty meaningless for units occupying these buildings.

One possible answer, is that herds could also be tied to native groups, and so by shooting up their animals you invoke their anger. Whether this is a sufficiently compelling reason to let the herds wander freely around your mission critical objectives, is another matter.

I'll have to think about that one.

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I think if you do this these creatures should have real punch, rather than just being a nuisance. Maybe implemented like the dogs in Red Alert, instakill on contact. Then you could have a harsh tradeoff between open terrain and vehicles, and forests and creatures.

I was worried enough about putting predators in at all! My concern is that if predators are too dangerous, players will spend a disproportionate amount of time and effort worrying about predators compared to how much time he spends worrying about his opponent.

I did consider a sort of subclass of 'super predator' - really big scary things that can inflict some pretty serious damage, even to some vehicles. However, I'm not yet convinced that they're a good idea...

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I like this, and the level of interactivity you can provide is pretty open. Peasants, for instance, who are sufficiently motivated could provide last known enemy troop locations (as an arrow with time or something), or even healing and restocking for units.

Yes. I'm not quite sure exactly how to implement this interaction though. I was thinking that it would need to be fairly simple, such as getting an infantry unit close to some natives and the friendly natives would just give you whatever information they felt like - this could be random, or it could be based on exactly how much they like you compared to your opponents (or even how threatening you are?) or they could just tell you everything they know.

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All in all, I like the idea of critters playing a more prominent role. Even dead critters, if they stick around for awhile (memory management willing) could provide evidence that your enemy was in the area.

Well, I was planning on leaving wrecked vehicles around on the map as cover, but I hadn't really thought of what happens with critters after you shoot them. I like it.

I don't think haveing finite numbers of critters is a good idea... (i would say that he players yould just destroy them when possible, then move on to the other player).

I would say you could do with something more then a territory, so something like a pack of preditors, you just set up a preditorpackai class to handle the workings of the preditors, therby disallowing the proditors own code to make decisions, only allowing the pack ai to make the (CPU cheaper) decisions). and can hand back control when something happens.

You should also allow herds to replenish their number,
so say in preditorpackai class, you have a preditor pack with 200 members, you should make the replication ability proportional to the amount of members of that herd, so eg.
bamo = (hamo * 0.5) / brate

You then promptly add bamo new preditors to the pack.

Each critter/heard of critters should have needs, so if they have there needs something like:
food: 100
water 240

Then if there if water nearby then they will drink, but if they are standing on food, they will eat.

if a need reaches a critical level, then the creature should die .

The critters should also have reactions,
so they should be afraid/curious of loud noises
they should be afraid/curious of units
they should be afraid/curious of vehicles
they should be afraid/curious of other critters and their reactions
And of cource, they should stampede.

The critters should also effect vegitation, so say if there is a lot of herbivores, then there should be fewer small plants and more large plants. but if there are carnivores then there should be more plants. birds should encourage tree groth, heards of catttle should be detremental to tree groth.

It could come in handy, because the creatures would probably start growing exponentially, unless stopped by preditors, so if the players decide to kill the preditors then the prey suddenly have a population surge then when the player wants to cut a tree down, the loud noiase spooks the heard nearby causing a stampede to wipe out the player!

For added realism, you should have some sort of alge which can be in rivers/lakes/oceans and poison the water for quite some time, makeing it undrinkable for wildlife and the players. That would also be affected by critters and the players, and how they manage there environment.

So, now the player has to think enviromentally and ecologically in order to Develop extra good tactics... (that could be good or bad)

One is Glad to be of service.
DENC

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Original post by Anonymous Poster When playing Zerg you use the queen on the critters and can explore the map, too. Not that direct as with protoss, but still a way to explore. ;)

Better in a way as they don't get attacked by enemy forces.

Shogun used the 'disturbed birds' technique to show hidden units.
I would also like to think that critters could be mistaken for
enemies. Imagine you're walking through the jungle when you hear a rustle off to the left and the nearly imperceptable movement undergrowth and shadows. Is it the enemy or a critter? Do you shoot first and give your position away or wait and risk being jumped?