Sword Fighting - RPG

Also, I think I should add that I'm thinking of making my game sort of under the Landfishian philosophy of combat where combat is deadly and will have a definite purpose. There wouldn't often be enemies coming at all sides. It would usually be one on one a lot of the time. If you're fighting more than one person than you did something really wrong to get that kind of reaction.

Anyway, how many people could fight 4 or 5 well-trained enemies at one time?




"""" "'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree"-Nazrix" -- runemaster --and now dwarfsoft" -- dwarfsoft --pouya --nes8bit --CmndrM " -- Nazrix
"If your parents didn't explain this one, I'm not going to." --Felisandria
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Edited by - Nazrix on October 15, 2000 7:10:07 PM

quote:

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Original post by Nazrix

Anyway, how many people could fight 4 or 5 well-trained enemies at one time?

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Absolutely no-one. Not even Bruce Lee. By his own admission.

This is why I believe that you need NPC''s as creatures. NPC''s with GOOD intelligence (good is better than what they have at the moment. Great intelligence is what I would like to eventually see) that makes them a hazard to tackle. You need only face one and it would wear you ragged before you kill it. This is why I would like to see tactics come into fighting. This would also include location based fighting and a tiring aspect for fighting. I am still unsure as to how you would handle the actual sword fighting and how you would warn the player about where the creature was going to attack (so that they could parry). I am definitely all for the idea of ''real'' ish sword fighting

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I definitely agree, dwarfoft.

I was thinking as far as blocking/parrying, the player wouldn't have to worry about where the swing was coming from...he'd just have to choose block in time to intercept the swing. Maybe a 3d game could let you see where the swing is going, but a 2d game would be much harder I think.




"""" "'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree"-Nazrix" -- runemaster --and now dwarfsoft" -- dwarfsoft --pouya --nes8bit --CmndrM " -- Nazrix
"If your parents didn't explain this one, I'm not going to." --Felisandria
"You know you're cool when you're in Nazrix's sig " --Martee
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Edited by - Nazrix on October 15, 2000 7:44:27 PM

That was what I was thinking, though how you choose location based is beyond me. I was thinking of 'slashing' the mouse across the screen and it did different things according to how your mouse attack went. It would also mean that you could specialise yourself to a different attack or generalise on the whole lot of them. I would like, though, to see it move away from the mouse altogether - although I am not sure that there is anything that is much better at the moment than a mouse. hmmm...

Example:

Top left to bottom right means a big slashing cut from the top to the bottom. Top left-right means a swing at the head. Bottom left to right means a slash at the legs. As for lunges, I guess you could just have a single click at different points on the screen to do it (without the slash across the screen). As for a block? The right mouse button?

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

Edited by - dwarfsoft on October 15, 2000 7:49:31 PM

Yeah, Daggerfall used the mouse in that way, but the attacks were not location based. You haven''t played Daggerfall yet?


"""" "'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree"-Nazrix" -- runemaster --and now dwarfsoft" -- dwarfsoft --pouya --nes8bit --CmndrM " -- Nazrix
"If your parents didn't explain this one, I'm not going to." --Felisandria
"You know you're cool when you're in Nazrix's sig :) " --Martee
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

pickup a game for the playstation called bushido blade. play it. it is mucho cool. everthing you are talking about is dealt with in this game. even though it''s 3d, i''m sure it can be applied to 2d.

Bushido Blade does sound pretty cool...now all I need is to buy a Playstation.


"""" "'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree"-Nazrix" -- runemaster --and now dwarfsoft" -- dwarfsoft --pouya --nes8bit --CmndrM " -- Nazrix
"If your parents didn't explain this one, I'm not going to." --Felisandria
"You know you're cool when you're in Nazrix's sig :) " --Martee
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Yeah, I was thinking along those lines too, AP. I was also thinking of having different weapons having different affects with different types of attacks (stab,overhand swing, side-ways type slash). Like a dagger would be good for a stab and so on. Also I was thinking that each type of attacks would have different speeds...like stabs would be fastest...




"""" "'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree"-Nazrix" -- runemaster --and now dwarfsoft" -- dwarfsoft --pouya --nes8bit --CmndrM " -- Nazrix
"If your parents didn't explain this one, I'm not going to." --Felisandria
"You know you're cool when you're in Nazrix's sig :) " --Martee
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Hmm... I did not think of different weapons. But I guess it could work.

Matthew
WebMaster
www.Matt-Land.com

It would also be nice if there was some control of how hard you hit. Although the harder you hit the longer it would take to swing. Again, I''m not sure of controls yet...


"""" "'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree"-Nazrix" -- runemaster --and now dwarfsoft" -- dwarfsoft --pouya --nes8bit --CmndrM " -- Nazrix
"If your parents didn't explain this one, I'm not going to." --Felisandria
"You know you're cool when you're in Nazrix's sig :) " --Martee
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

dude, you can get a PS1 for about US$80-100.
As for the mechanics of bushido blade:
You can change your stance, low, middle, high, i.e. how you hold the sword. It''s kindof like a fighting mode. High is very strong and offensive, but leaves you wide open. Middle is a good balance. low is very stout and defensive, but attacks are limited.
You can attack high, middle, low. Depending on which stance you are in, it will be a different attack.
You can add direction combinations with high, middle, low attacks.
You can string attacks together for combos. There are a ton of them, and they all feel natural, like, You do a high slash, and that leaves you blade low, so now you can do a low attack because that is where your blade is. You can do two middle sweeping attacks. Almost every attack can be combo''ed. basically, it''s high-low, or mid-mid, or low-high, or high-mid-high, something like that.
You can chop (vertical), slash (angled), sweep (horizantal), and stab (forward).
There is only one block. Depending on what stance you are in you might be able to block better. High stance you can''t block very well (especially your feet). Middle stance you can block everything, but you don''t have a very strong block. Low you can block everything and it''s a very strong block. If you pull a weak block and get hit hard, then you will stagger from the force of the blow. This leaves you open for an attack, but you can roll out of the way. You can also get nicked, it does no damage to you, but it has the same effect as a poor block.
If both players throw attacks at the same level, at the same time, they will lock blades and get into a pushing match.
Sometimes, you can knock the guy over, jump up, then stab the guy on your way down. There is also a move where you can slash at his feet to knock him down, then chop at him while he is on the ground.
You can do a crouch step, which takes you down to put you hand on the ground, then you can either throw dirt in their eyes, throw your sub-weapon (like shiruken), or jump.
There is one move you can do with the katana. You can use it to flick your opponents weapon out of the way, then do a thrusting stab.
THe guys can get damaged, like there arms so they can''t swing the sword as fast, or there legs so they can''t walk.
The best part, one hit kills. Their are no life meters, you hit the guy in the head or stab him in the belly, he is dead.
There are many different weapons, each with their own attributes. The Katana is very balanced. The smaller swords are really fast, but don''t block well. The Broadsword blocks almost everything, but is really slow. The Naginata is really slow, but it is really long, so you can keep people way out of reach.
There are different fighters with verying speed and agility and strenght. Some are not really strong enough to use certain weapons, while others are not really fast enough to take advantage of the smaller weapons. You can still choose those weapons for those characters though.
Make sure you get the first one if you decide to try it out. The second one basically elliminated this whole style.

Here a couple of ideas off the top of my head.
All bellow is IMHO.
When sword fighting, as with martial arts and boxing, you attempt to discern how your opponent will attack based on their stance and how they move.
Example: A swordsman is facing you right foot forward. The chances are he''ll attack from his left to right. He will get more power that way. Judging but the height and angle of the blade you can attempt to guess where he is aiming.
Of course this is all good in theory. The reality is a little harder. Its possible in the last second to raise a low attack to mid range, drop a high attack down a bit, and so on. But this takes a lot of effort and can lower the amount of power behind an attack.

In a 2D game you could have a panel showing your opponent face on. When he attacks, the player must watch the movement and try to guess where he is going to attack. You would reflect last second changes in attack with things like a facial strain or a scream as the opponent puts more energy in changing the direction of the attack.

This offers the chance to add styles to the game. Clans or groups could attack in different manners. One guild may prefer going for the head or legs, and so on.

Thought on the Dagger fall control. The idea was wonderful, the implementation however is very tricky. I wasn''t entirely comfortable with Dagger fall, but then I didn''t play it much. The plus point is it did work up a sweat!

There are lots of things that would be great to add to a sword fighting scenario, but you may find yourself limited with the input devices.

I''d love to see how it comes along

What else do you need; besides a miricle.
Money. Lots of Money. or I''ll never do a sequel!

I don''t have anything major to add. What''s been said is good, esp. the DaggerFall style system. I''ve never played DaggerFall, but it sounds like a good (hard to implement) system.

I have played Bushido Blade, though, and one thing I''d like to say was that it was almost *too* realistic. Most battles against the computer are over in a few seconds. Against a human, I was able to drag the fights out a little longer, but it took quite a bit of effort and some self-imposed restrictions (must disarm before killing, etc.)

What I''m trying to get at is this: I''d like to see battles that are like good Kung-Fu movies, twenty-to-fifty well-placed blows, blocks and parries w/ one or two shots connecting, ended by one deathblow.

I think where Bushido kind of blew it was overbalancing the attack. In games like Tekken, attacks are easy to pull off, but it takes many, many blows to score a kill. In Bushido, they let one kill==death, but didn''t make defense stronger to compensate. Basically, I''d say that the parries and blocks should be far more varied && easy to pull off if the strength of one attack is that much more. I know you want combat to be fairly rare, but that''s all the more reason to make each fight that much more satisfying.

Other than that, sounds good! (can''t wait to play it. all through Bushido, all I could think of was how cool that system could be in an RPG.)

If you see the Buddha on the road, Kill Him. -apocryphal

Yeah, I guess the blocking system was sortof lacking, but then again, you could always roll out of the way. It doesn't work if the other guy is really moving in on you, but then again HE'S REALLY MOVING IN ON YOU!
One thing a lot of people didn't like about Bushido Blade was that they thought it had sluggish controls. I totally disagree. The only time it was sluggish was when you tried to free run away from you opponent, totally leaving you open for like a half second, but that's okay because no true warrior should be running. If you run, you should be killed (haha, just kidding).
Another thing I forgot about it, the levels. Multi-planed, with some limited weather effects (wind, snow), they were frickin' huge, and you could move between them.

Bowowow yipeeyo yipeeyay
[IFRAME nuked by MadKeithV]

Edited by - MadKeithV on October 24, 2000 7:29:00 AM

The combat syste in Daggerfall worked up too much of a sweat IMO. Sliding the mouse around got tiresome. Also, there was so little room for long-range combat.

AP, I was thinking along those lines too about the fights being drawn out. It''s cool in movies when the 2 swordsmen are carefully parrying each others swings with only a few attacks connecting until the final blow. I would also like the player to have to put blocking/parrying high on the priority list rather than just taking a hit so that he can go for an offensive move because getting hit would be too dangerous.




"""" "'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree"-Nazrix" -- runemaster --and now dwarfsoft" -- dwarfsoft --pouya --nes8bit --CmndrM " -- Nazrix
"If your parents didn't explain this one, I'm not going to." --Felisandria
"You know you're cool when you're in Nazrix's sig :) " --Martee
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Well, I was thinking of movies, for reference. And I remembered the Highlander serie. I mean, there are countless fights in this show, and yet they are all quite different. One thing that doesnt change though, is that most of the time, one blow kills (head off). The rest is attack/parry, attack/avoid, run around the place, etc ... but they rarely hit. when they do, it hurts a lot, and they start doing the whole thing again, until one guy usually attack too stongly, Duncan using this to place his mighty strike quickening, fade to black.

I guess for a game, there is something a bit annoying at being killed on the first blow. But I also notice that nowadays RPG (pen&paper ones), are more and more aiming at this kind of gameplay, with fights being fast, furious, and more often than not, lethal. If you decide to go into a fight, it''s because you know you have the skills, and you know you will win. Otherwise, you think twice about it, or you evade the danger using your brains.

As for the technical side, this Bushido Blade game you mentioned had me drooling now I have to see that.
Personally, I like the idea that you can have a lot of weapons, each implying different styles of attack/parry. Rather than having the same gameplay, with different sprites.

but anyway, keep that threa going, I am saving all of it

youpla :-P

Just a note, since I didn''t see it mentioned: If combat is infrequent and deadly, then you''re going to need __MANY__ options for training. Otherwise, you''ll have repeat and die gameplay, where you face a baddy, haven''t mastered the controls yet, and have to continuously reload.

The thing about the swarms of badguys you get in Diablo is that, while being a killfest, it''s at least great practice for the tougher levels.

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Just waiting for the mothership...

quote:

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Original post by ahw

Well, I was thinking of movies, for reference. And I remembered the Highlander serie. I mean, there are countless fights in this show, and yet they are all quite different. One thing that doesnt change though, is that most of the time, one blow kills (head off). The rest is attack/parry, attack/avoid, run around the place, etc ... but they rarely hit. when they do, it hurts a lot, and they start doing the whole thing again, until one guy usually attack too stongly, Duncan using this to place his mighty strike quickening, fade to black.

I guess for a game, there is something a bit annoying at being killed on the first blow. But I also notice that nowadays RPG (pen&paper ones), are more and more aiming at this kind of gameplay, with fights being fast, furious, and more often than not, lethal. If you decide to go into a fight, it''s because you know you have the skills, and you know you will win. Otherwise, you think twice about it, or you evade the danger using your brains.

youpla :-P

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yes...exactly what I am thinking




"""" "'Nazrix is cool' -- Nazrix" --Darkmage --Godfree"-Nazrix" -- runemaster --and now dwarfsoft" -- dwarfsoft --pouya --nes8bit --CmndrM " -- Nazrix
"If your parents didn't explain this one, I'm not going to." --Felisandria
"You know you're cool when you're in Nazrix's sig :) " --Martee
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.