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*******READ BEFORE POSTING!!!*******

Started by mlambert Mar 29, 2005 at 7:14 AM 58 replies 16.5k views
Original Post
mlambert
mlambert
Right, I'm going to change things around here a little bit. For a short test period, ALL new threads are required to follow a format. I've pasted the format at the bottom of this post, and following that are two more posts with a couple of simple demonstrations. Notice the use of formatting (bold titles) INCLUDING THE NEW LINES AND BOLD!!! Why? Because it's getting harder and harder to pick out the well thought out projects from all the clutter around here, and I'm hoping that by at least having to fill this out it will make more people think about what they are trying to achieve before pushing it on others. THIS WILL BE MANDATORY, if you do not follow this format you will be told in your thread. Failure to change the thread to suit (remember you can edit the original post!) after a period of 24hrs will result in the thread being removed. I would like to hear your comments and suggestions, so feel free to respond here or email/PM me with your thoughts, although I reserve the right to take and leave ideas as they seem appropriate. Another thing I would like, is for people to post their own demonstrations here. One more thing, DO NOT take it upon yourself to post a link to this thread to any member who fails to follow the guidelines. This is strictly so I can do so and keep a close eye on whom takes the time to read the guidelines and who doesn't. Thanks for your time and happy hunting! Marc. **TEMPLATE, PLEASE COPY AND PASTE TO RETAIN BOLD AND FORMATTING*** Thread title - (Give basic info about what you need, no real need to make it too long with any game description) Team name: (Or if you are calling it a company, though be very careful to abide by the faq and not mislead anybody into thinking it's a registered company). Project name: (or working title) Brief description: (Here you put a brief overview of the project, including how long it has currently been in production for). Target aim: (Shareware/Freeware/retail/etc) Compensation: (Can you pay, or are you offering a percentage of potential revenue? Can you put it in writing for potential help?) Technology: (Target system, programming language and/or tools, Artist tools, Sound tools) Talent needed: (List the people you need, their expected tasks and any experience needed) Team structure: (The people who are currently in the team, how long they've been there, and most importantly what YOU do) Website: (Anything you have, even if it's a wip. Just make sure it is here as a clicky link!) Contacts: (Your email address/forum/etc...) Additional Info: (Anything else you want to say, snippets of the story/design, screenshots. AT LEAST SOMETHING!) [Edited by - mlambert on April 1, 2005 2:16:52 AM]
mlambert
mlambert
EXAMPLE 1:

(Thread title: Arists/programmers/music needed)

Team name:
Lags11

Project name:
Spacey invaders

Brief description:
A 2D shoot-em-up set in space, whereby the player controls a spaceship defending a base station against enemy invaders. This has been in production for three months.

Target aim:
Freeware, hopefully to build up a website and a name for ourselves!

Compensation:
Plenty of credit for work done! [smile]

Technology:
DirectX, Promotion, Photoshop

Talent needed:
Sprite artists, a.i and sound programmers, from beginners up.

Team structure:
Currently, I'm the concept artist and designer, we also have two 2 engine programmers who have been here for the duration.

Website:
(obvious what goes here!)

Contacts:
(and again!)

Additional Info:
Go here for small demo of what we've done so far. Also we have a lot of ideas for cool weapons and features that we've put into a design document and would be happy to show potential help.

[Edited by - mlambert on March 29, 2005 9:16:03 AM]
mlambert
mlambert
EXAMPLE 2:

(Thread title: Beginners needed for collaboration)

Team name:
To be decided

Project name:
n/a

Brief description:
I want to put together a small team of beginners to help each other learn and develop small games. I would like to get a website and forum up and running where we can show our progress and talk about our ideas.

Target aim:
Freeware, just for experience

Compensation:
n/a

Technology:
Preferably C/C++ with OpenGL.

Talent needed:
Any beginners who would be interested in helping! This means programmers, artists, sound engineers, basically anyone willing to learn!

Team structure:
At the moment it's just me. I've been programming for a few months now and am building up a steady knowledge of C++. I've managed to start a pong clone, so it might be cool for some help with that.

Website:

Contacts:

Additional Info:
It would be cool to hear from anybody, even if you don't think you'd be much help! You never know what we could achieve.

[Edited by - mlambert on March 29, 2005 9:20:44 AM]
TheArtifex
TheArtifex
You asked for comments and questions, and I'll gladly give them. ^___^

My biggest concern is this:

Should these be seen as rules, requirements, or guidelines?
---Are we required to pretty much copy/paste and fill in the blank...
---or are we simply required to include each item in the list in a distinct and clear fashion?
---Can we change the order of items?

How much are we allowed to elaborate?
---Can we include a header image?
---Can we modify the formatting to something equally or more organized/aesthetic?
---How much can we put under the "Additional Info" section?

Should these restrictions be seen as temporary?
---How long are you planning to use these restrictions?
---At what point will you say "Okay, I've seen enough"?

You see, I'm not trying to look like a rebel or anything. I have a ton of respect for you and the decisions you've made in the past. But you asked for comments and concerns, and this time around, I've got them.

We're about to recruit, again, and in the past, we've done very, very well with recruiting here: if I'm not mistaken, you've actually given us positive feedback, occasionally. But many times, our recruiting posts are not at all "standardised", and include much more information about the project and what we need than is allowed by these rules- unless, of course, the "Additional Information" section is allowed to be several paragraphs long.

I guess my biggest question is simply whether or not we should make our posts follow these cookie-cutter guidelines, or if we're allowed to view these as guidelines, rather than a fill-in-the-blank.

It seems to me that what you are trying out here is forming more of a reference sheet of hiring projects, so potential applicants can browse through all of the teams, neatly standardised, and then visit their website to get to the nitty-gritty, if they're interested. I'm sure there are mixed opinions on this, but in my opinion:

GarageGames has already tried it, and failed miserably.

I've always loved GameDev because the Help Wanted section is a forum, rather than a database. You can learn an awful lot about a team simply by how much thought and time gets put into their recruiting post, and, again, in my humble and respectful opinion, standardisation has a very good potential to kill the "individuality" in recruiting posts.

Just my opinionated two cents. ^^

[Edited by - TheArtifex on March 29, 2005 9:54:20 PM]
mlambert
mlambert
Quote:
Original post by TheArtifex
You asked for comments and questions, and I'll gladly give them. ^___^


Excellent!


Quote:

Should these be seen as rules, requirements, or guidelines?
---Are we required to pretty much copy/paste and fill in the blank...
---or are we simply required to include each item in the list in a distinct and clear fashion?
---Can we change the order of items?


These are requirements for now. You can be creative with what's there in terms of the order, but the "Additional info" section should be further down (for reasons following) and everything should be included.


Quote:
How much are we allowed to elaborate?
---Can we include a header image?
---Can we modify the formatting to something equally or more organized/aesthetic?
---How much can we put under the "Additional Info" section?


You can elaborate as much as you like, it's still a case of the more info the better, including header images and the like. The "Additional info" section is where the meat should go, the others are mainly for people to look up and get interested, kind of like a c.v.


Quote:
Should these restrictions be seen as temporary?
---How long are you planning to use these restrictions?
---At what point will you say "Okay, I've seen enough"?


It all depends on how well it works. For now it's a test, but it may or may not be adopted full time, but more than likely will be adjusted and upgraded as needs permit.


Quote:
You see, I'm not trying to look like a rebel or anything. I have a ton of respect for you and the decisions you've made in the past. But you asked for comments and concerns, and this time around, I've got them.


That what this thread is still open for, and I welcome everything you ask and will do my best to answer as quickly as possible.


Quote:
We're about to recruit, again, and in the past, we've done very, very well with recruiting here: if I'm not mistaken, you've actually given us positive feedback, occasionally. But many times, our recruiting posts are not at all "standardised", and include much more information about the project and what we need than is allowed by these rules- unless, of course, the "Additional Information" section is allowed to be several paragraphs long.


While your posts are usually amongst the best ones we get here, using this standardised method shouldn't change that, especially since you can still use your headers and the "additional info" section can be as long as you like.


Quote:
I guess my biggest question is simply whether or not we should make our posts follow these cookie-cutter guidelines, or if we're allowed to view these as guidelines, rather than a fill-in-the-blank.


You should follow everything that's there, but you are open to be creative within the guidlines. As everything I've answered above says.


Quote:
It seems to me that what you are trying out here is forming more of a reference sheet of hiring projects, so potential applicants can browse through all of the teams, neatly standardised, and then visit their website to get to the nitty-gritty, if they're interested. I'm sure there are mixed opinions on this, but in my opinion:

GarageGames has already tried it, and failed miserably.

I've always loved GameDev because the Help Wanted section is a forum, rather than a database. You can learn an awful lot about a team simply by how much thought and time gets put into their recruiting post, and, again, in my humble and respectful opinion, standardisation has a very good potential to kill the "individuality" in recruiting posts.

Just my opinionated two cents. ^^


This is exactly what I'm trying to keep, the community spirit. This is a discussion I've already had with another mod about. You see the forum needs to change, it cannot continue the way it is going and there have been many ideas, but the one major one floating around is some kind of database/form filing system, which I'm not sure I like the idea of. I want to keep the community as it is, but make sure that everyone posts in a more "standard" manner so people can scan through the early sections to get an idea of what is there, and proceed to the full on part (as you keep saying, the 'additional info' section) if they like what they see. Another benefit is it should cut down the flames and repeat questions of "what will you be doing", "is it paid", "website?" and the like, which is a major turn-away for people likely to want to actually help.

This should also have the added bonus of forcing people to actually think about what they want before posting two lined-threads here.


If you have any additional idea's to modify the template, then please send them my way - along with responses to what I've said, of course [smile]


Thanks!

Marc.
TheArtifex
TheArtifex
Alright, man- thanks for the quick response. You've nailed pretty much all of my questions right on the head, and I got lucky this time around: I heard exactly what I wanted to hear.

I'll be back in four hours with a recruiting post. ;)

Oh, and:

Quote:
your posts are usually amongst the best ones we get here


Thank you very much. *ego++*

[Edited by - TheArtifex on March 29, 2005 11:21:37 PM]
linternet
linternet
What about people looking to offer their services to a team as a member or for freelance work?

I don't feel that they should have to wait for a team to ask for them.
mlambert
mlambert
Quote:
Original post by linternet
What about people looking to offer their services to a team as a member or for freelance work?

I don't feel that they should have to wait for a team to ask for them.


Yes, good point and one that was previously brought up (before the post met with an accident)...

I'm going to draft one up very soon and get it up here shortly. In the meantime, I'm open to suggest on what to add in.


Marc.
linternet
linternet
Quote:

and one that was previously brought up (before the post met with an accident)...


I didn't read the pre-accident thread, forgive me if my suggestions have been repeated.

- I would add an entry for what stage of development the team is in. Either use a scale (Pre-Alpha, Alpha, Beta, etc..) or something descriptive ("We have our design doc and some concept art) or both.

- In the team structure category I would suggest people also tell of previous game development experience (if any).

- I'm not quite sure how to articulate this one, but I think the "target aim" section should be expanded. I worked on Starflight 3 for a VERY long time before realizing that the team's goals didn't match mine. I then found Reactor Interactive and it's a match made in heaven :). The difference was that Starflight consisted of fans with no real ambitions for the game industry while Reator Interactive is looking to make games for a living. As commercial games have a seperate recuritment area I think there should be something for "overall goals" (is this for a hobby, a line on your resume, or are you looking to turn it into a game studio?). Sorry if I can't be more clear with this one.
jbadams
jbadams
Well, mine was the post that met with an 'accident', and since I didn't save it and several of the points have been raised by others or added into the OP now, I'll simply summarise the contents rather than re-typing the whole thing:

-Use constructive titles on the threads. Almost everyone is making a game, so you don't need to include that. Including the positions available if there are only a couple is good (ie. "Composer and Artist needed"). If there are more than a couple of positions, a big list would probably be too much information for the thread title, in which case the games working title and/or genre could make an appropriate alternative (ie. "2D Sidescroller seeking team"). Remember, the body of the post is where most of the information should go, but the title is the first thing people see - so it may as well be at least slightly informative.

-Some people are advertising thier services rather than looking for people to help them. This has been raised once more already - an additional template for this purpose is probably the most elegant solution. My suggested fields would be: Name, Service (Artist, Composer, SFX, Programmer, etc), Experience (links to relevant websites a plus), Portfolio (link to website), Additional comments.

-Posting images: While not really a neccesity, it's nice if you can post thumbnails of images, so that they load quickly, and more detail is available if wanted. Also saves people looking through all your full-sized images when they may only be interested in a couple. In addition, it's good practice to fill in the alt attribute of the image tag, in case the images don't load or a user either has them disabled or is using a text only browser.


Hrm... well, that wasn't so short, but still a lot shorter than the original I think... no matter, I believe that covers most if not all of the previous points acceptably.
- Jason Astle-Adams
Alpha_ProgDes
Alpha_ProgDes
I guess there wouldn't be a way to have the template automagically appear when someone posts to that forum?
Beginner in Game Development?  Read here. And read here.  
mlambert
mlambert
Quote:
Original post by Kazgoroth
Well, mine was the post that met with an 'accident', and since I didn't save it and several of the points have been raised by others or added into the OP now, I'll simply summarise the contents rather than re-typing the whole thing:


My very public apologies about that post, it was human error [smile] The thread names and services ideas were Kazgorath's and I have taken them onboard. Many respects for being one of the outstanding members in this particular forum man!


Quote:
Original post by Alpha_ProgDes
I guess there wouldn't be a way to have the template automagically appear when someone posts to that forum?


If this test period proves successful, then it would be nice to see. Down to the powers that be though *hint*hint*


Marc.
Drew_Benton
Drew_Benton
Marc, I have a quick suggestion for you on this thread. I noticed when click on the "Help Wanted" forums that this thread does not really stick out to someone just now visiting the site asking for help. Already being here, I know the title "Start Here" is pretty self evident, but for someone just coming, it is very easy to over look. I would suggest making it something like:

"*********BEFORE YOU POST IN THIS FORUM*********"

or something that is more attention grabbing so people do not accidently overlook it.

- Drew
boolean
boolean
Reading through this thread, it has become apparent to me that the few suggestions I managed to come up with and sent to Marc were pretty bad [grin].

Just something else I thought of. Maybe the thread template should be presented like the one below, so that those who may not know the correct HTML formatting tags can still have it working properly. This way they can just copy and paste the entire thing.

Thread title
(Give basic info about what you need, no real need to make it too long with any game description)


Team name:
(Or if you are calling it a company, though be very careful to abide by the faq and not mislead anybody into thinking it's a registered company).

Project name:
(or working title)

Brief description:
(Here you put a brief overview of the project, including how long it has currently been in production for).

Target aim:
(Shareware/Freeware/retail/etc)

Compensation:
(Can you pay, or are you offering a percentage of potential revenue? Can you put it in writing for potential help?)

Technology:
(Target system, programming language and/or tools, Artist tools, Sound tools)

Talent needed:
(List the people you need, their expected tasks and any experience needed)

Team structure:
(The people who are currently in the team, how long they've been there, and most importantly what YOU do)

Website:
(Anything you have, even if it's a wip. Just make sure it is here as a clicky link!)

Contacts:
(Your email address/forum/etc...)

Additional Info:
(Anything else you want to say, snippets of the story/design, screenshots. AT LEAST SOMETHING!)
TheArtifex
TheArtifex
Quote:
Original post by Drew_Benton
Marc, I have a quick suggestion for you on this thread. I noticed when click on the "Help Wanted" forums that this thread does not really stick out to someone just now visiting the site asking for help. Already being here, I know the title "Start Here" is pretty self evident, but for someone just coming, it is very easy to over look. I would suggest making it something like:

"*********BEFORE YOU POST IN THIS FORUM*********"

or something that is more attention grabbing so people do not accidently overlook it.

- Drew


I think a major motivation behind this little experiment is seeing who actually reads the rules before posting, and publicly flogging people who don't. ^___^

EDIT:

The following is a response from the moderator, found on the next page. I thought I should put it here, just to clarify his point:

Quote:
Original post by mlambert
THERE IS NO PUBLIC FLOGGING!

It was a tongue-in-cheek statement from TheArtifex which I set straight anyway because I knew someone would eventually take it the wrong way.

...I don't even want one person getting the wrong idea...

...I just want to make it as clear as possible.

THERE IS NO PUBLIC FLOGGING!


Seems I'm always stirring up some sort of riot, eh?


[Edited by - TheArtifex on April 4, 2005 2:43:00 AM]
slowpid
slowpid
Not that I post all that often for help, but I do have a concern.

I appreciate what you are trying to do but one of the biggest problems in this area is that many or most teams fail after an energetic but awkward beginning; to me 'help wanted' posts are the only real way to see if a team has, one: thought through their game and two: has the required professionalism and leadership nessecary for production in the indie field. Being someone that cannot nessecarily create or lead their own game I tend to scout posts on the forum that meet these qualifications. In my opinion creating a tablet will not clean the boggled mess of a forum but make it uniformed, where'in it becomes harder (in an already extremely hard field) to discern the gold from the crap - to figure out who is a professional and who is just a bored child on spring break.

While I do like the idea of some standardization it is my opinion that it subtracts from our ability to actively create, identify and experiment with this forum as a tool for our gaming production needs; as well as gives others without the talent, time or dedication the ability to pose as if they had it.

I'm sure that there will still be posts that are good and posts that are bad, however part of my concern also lays with a posts ability to shine and thereforth the teams ability to really set itself apart.

mlambert
mlambert
Quote:
Original post by Drew_Benton
Marc, I have a quick suggestion for you on this thread. I noticed when click on the "Help Wanted" forums that this thread does not really stick out to someone just now visiting the site asking for help. Already being here, I know the title "Start Here" is pretty self evident, but for someone just coming, it is very easy to over look. I would suggest making it something like:

"*********BEFORE YOU POST IN THIS FORUM*********"

or something that is more attention grabbing so people do not accidently overlook it.

- Drew


Good idea, I've changed to to be more attention grabbing [smile]


Quote:
Original post by boolean
Just something else I thought of. Maybe the thread template should be presented like the one below, so that those who may not know the correct HTML formatting tags can still have it working properly. This way they can just copy and paste the entire thing.


See, you do have some good ideas! Well, every now and then anyway [wink]


Quote:
Original post by TheArtifex
I think a major motivation behind this little experiment is seeing who actually reads the rules before posting, and publicly flogging people who don't. ^___^


Haha, I can honestly say definately not! I delete my post when the OP is changed (I've done about three so far) and it costs me time when I have to ask! This is about structuring the forum better, while retaining the community (and perhaps stopping it from becoming a listing-only page), no hidden agendas I'm afraid [smile]
mlambert
mlambert
Quote:
Original post by slowpid
Not that I post all that often for help, but I do have a concern.

I appreciate what you are trying to do but one of the biggest problems in this area is that many or most teams fail after an energetic but awkward beginning; to me 'help wanted' posts are the only real way to see if a team has, one: thought through their game and two: has the required professionalism and leadership nessecary for production in the indie field. Being someone that cannot nessecarily create or lead their own game I tend to scout posts on the forum that meet these qualifications. In my opinion creating a tablet will not clean the boggled mess of a forum but make it uniformed, where'in it becomes harder (in an already extremely hard field) to discern the gold from the crap - to figure out who is a professional and who is just a bored child on spring break.

While I do like the idea of some standardization it is my opinion that it subtracts from our ability to actively create, identify and experiment with this forum as a tool for our gaming production needs; as well as gives others without the talent, time or dedication the ability to pose as if they had it.

I'm sure that there will still be posts that are good and posts that are bad, however part of my concern also lays with a posts ability to shine and thereforth the teams ability to really set itself apart.


That's a very good point.

However, in my opinion, a bad post is a bad post and people will soon spot one and start posting there. I actually think this method will make it easier to spot, because some of the fields will be quite tricky to fill in for people who are trying to blag things or haven't thought things through, take the Technology field for instance...The second someone posts something that doesn't seem to be that well planned, they are going to get questioned.

Also, the posts that make an effort to stand out are the ones you want anyway! Remember, I'm saying follow the basic format but work with it as much as you like...post thumbnails, use snippets of story/design to attract attention, give thoughts and ideas on the future direction...etc.

I will keep an eye on it though, you have definately made me think about that side of things and I will try to catch and help more of these types of posts as I see them.
TheArtifex
TheArtifex
Quote:
Original post by mlambert
Quote:
Original post by TheArtifex
I think a major motivation behind this little experiment is seeing who actually reads the rules before posting, and publicly flogging people who don't. ^___^


Haha, I can honestly say definately not! I delete my post when the OP is changed (I've done about three so far) and it costs me time when I have to ask! This is about structuring the forum better, while retaining the community (and perhaps stopping it from becoming a listing-only page), no hidden agendas I'm afraid [smile]


Aww... but conspiracy is so much fun!

In seriousness, though, I'm actually very surprised with how well this system is working. Brilliant move on your part, man.
jbadams
jbadams
Indeed. Kudos on how well it's going thus far, hopefully it will keep working as well, and perhaps even get improved further over time. [smile]
- Jason Astle-Adams

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