Library

Daggerfall did...

I think Daggerfall or Thief are those two games where I can say they did something that people tend to suggest. I''m proud of those two companies...anyway...

The problem w/ Daggerfall is that many, not all of the things covered in books were only for atmosphere and did not exist. Like most of the books were written from the first person. It would be cool if you could look for the author (assuming he/she is still alive). Also, in Daggerfall, the books spoke of dragons and there were none. It kind of killed the effect.


"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

Nice idea, but in most RPGs there is not REALLY a demand for libraries. I´d say that players are generally too lazy and too keen on action to spend their time looking through books..

but it can never hurt to have books around. Just as long as it´s easy enough to actually find the information you need. Maybe a kind of keyword search in the shape of the librarian. You ask for books on a certain subject ("dragonslayer"), an then he will waddle off and get you a pile of books (Hurc the orc barbarian, Ruff the dragonslayer, Dragonslaying for dummies I-IV,...)
Becaus i think that only the really hardcore players would actually spend time looking through a library to find what they seek. (It takes long enough in real life)

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Original post by Hase

Nice idea, but in most RPGs there is not REALLY a demand for libraries. I´d say that players are generally too lazy and too keen on action to spend their time looking through books..

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If the player is itching for action, he/she should not be playing a ( true ) roleplaying game, but playing Quake instead. Or Diablo, for a fantasy hack-em-up.

RPGs are not action games. I think a library with information on a wide variety of subjects would work great - an in-game version of the reference manual, presented in a way that fits with the surroundings.
If spending time in the library could actually improve your skill in certain areas, that would be even more of a bonus.




People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~

I think this is really a matter of priority. There is a trend in this forum to want more options and features all the time. People tend to forget that resources are limited in game development and the developer would have to prioritize.

I would really like to see a full library in a game, but making one takes a lot of time and might not be the most important thing in a game. So the question is, do you want libraries so much that you are willing to sacrifice other parts of the game? Example areas could be:
* Length (playing time)
* Graphics/Sound quality
* Story and/or detail level in other places.

If you are not want to sacrifice anything, wanting more features is just ranting without purpose.

The good developer is the developer that knows which features are important and which aren''t.

Jacob Marner

If you are going to have a library (not to mention several libraries) with several hundred books, how are you ever going to write all of them, while at the same time making a role-playing game? Even if they follow the trend in RPGs of having only a few pages, it's still at least worth a medium-sized novel. And they have to vary in styles and subjects to be believable. It's not reasonable, unless you have several dedicated writers on the team.

EDIT: Just to avoid looking like I don't like the idea: OF COURSE I would want a library in an RPG. I just don't think it's possible.

-Jussi

Edited by - Selkrank on November 13, 2000 6:29:55 AM

Reading books in a games has always been a double edged sword for me. On the one hand it can provide a great deal of background info and explain just why the heck you''re out there doing whatever you''re doing. But there''s nothing worse than flippin through each and every page to find the one little bit of info you''re looking for. Computer interfaces just don''t handle it very well.

The approach to this problem that I''ve taken, within my ongoing MMO, is to give the players access to what at first is a near-enough empty library, save for a few ‘provided’ works, and the ability to write whatever they want into empty books which can then either be placed within the ‘public’ library, their guild library, hall library , or carried about upon their person.

In this way, those players who wish to boast of their exploits/write poems/ record in-world history/ minutes etc, have the ability to do so, with everything they write being added to the world (incl. Bad spellings ).

I’m not sure how this could be adapted to single-player worlds, since solo players rarely seem to feel the need to document their exploits.

The best thing I can think of in such a case, would be a system like Daggerfall’s, with enough reading material to fill a small novella, but preferabl linked to the world, such that reading the material provides hidden insights into the world.

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Original post by felonius

I would really like to see a full library in a game, but making one takes a lot of time and might not be the most important thing in a game.

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Depending on what you put in, it shouldn''t take much more than a day or two to implement. Normally, an RPG has a booklet shipped with it, with explanations about some items and monsters. The designers have to write small descriptions of their stuff anyway, in order to put it in the design document. Now, if this is done in a way that''s easy to add to in-game libraries ( consistent style and such ), then it doesn''t take any additional work time to have the info available.

However, that doesn''t go for works of fiction, which I also think have very little place inside an RPG, unless they are player-written.




People might not remember what you said, or what you did, but they will always remember how you made them feel.
~ (V)^|) |<é!t|-| ~

What about if the library does give insights about the world and perhaps can increase skills, but the game would just tell the player the jist of what the character just read. Like, "The book has taught you more about how to pick locks.". Or, "The book informed you that there are goblins near the west bank of the Nazrix River".

This way we wouldn''t need to actually write the text, but would just explain the jist of the books''s contents. Of course, I''d rather it be real text in the form of stories and such, but this would relieve the need to write all of it. Do you think that is kind of cheap, and too much of a shortcut?


"All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be --Pink Floyd
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.
Need help? Well, go FAQ yourself.

To much effort to add, and too little effect on the game itself. I think it can work in Online MP RPGs: you can add publisher houses, writers as profession or class and sell books in stores This way game will get both manuals and novels wrote by other players. In boxed RPGs, again, it is too long and do not worth efforts to be implemented.

How about a Random Novel generator? That would be funny....

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Original post by Sandman

How about a Random Novel generator? That would be funny....

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Whew! Okay, see, it wasn''t me this time who suggested random...


-Wavi-"we''ll just randomly generate everything!!!"-nator



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Just waiting for the mothership...

I am making a game that has fully stocked libraries. It will take a year or so, but there will be hundreds of books in the libraries. I got a team of about 10 people that are really good writers in my school, and i am assigning them books to write. It is coming along pretty good.

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Original post by Nazrix

What about if the library does give insights about the world and perhaps can increase skills, but the game would just tell the player the jist of what the character just read. Like, "The book has taught you more about how to pick locks.". Or, "The book informed you that there are goblins near the west bank of the Nazrix River".

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I like this alot. I think Fallout used this system, at least when you had skill related books.

I like the idea of a library, but it doesn''t seem like it would work in any but the most esoteric RPG-like game. If anyone remembers, I posted awhile back about exploring numerous worlds. One of the points people drove home to me is the vital importance of goals.

Most RPGs are highly goal oriented. I suspect most players of even "true RPGs" want to finish the game, accomplishing missions / quests rather than escaping. They want to save the princess rather than bake bread, because one has meaning and the other is more pointless.

So with a library, you have the same problem I have with my countless worlds to explore. For goal oriented players, there''s too much to exploration space! You''ll probably create anxiety in goal oriented players, as they would probably feel like they have to wade through tons of trivial material.

Now, you could abandon the "Finishers" as I call them and cater exclusively to the Daggerfall loving "Escapists." But my suspicion is that "Finishers" are the broad majority, even among "true role-players."


BTW, to combine suggestions so far, wouldn''t this be cool: Libraries where the books were summaries, randomly generated, based on the world, society, and backstory.

Then you''d get results like: "This is a book about about the Klingon Rite of Ascension ritual. You learn that the Rite of Ascension is brutal, but vital for all young Klingon males.

You have gained +1 knowledge on Kingon Culture, and +1 on all interactions with Klingons."



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Just waiting for the mothership...

the idea of learning from books is not bad but the only reason why it works so well in fallout is that books have become very rare in the postnuclear world. If you really have a well stocked library what would prevent players (especially beginners) from reading ALL the skill-relevant books there?

The idea of putting backgrounds to monsters, areas and items (etc) into a library is great (the roleplayers version of the online manual). Meet a monster, kill it, take it´s ear(tongue/head/whatever) to the library to help id it (roll on wisdom skill or such) and then get the relevant information. Or just read it all....

This way library use would be somewhat restricted, as you´d have to use a certain skill to get what you want. Or, alternatively read as much as you want and then use the intelligence stat to find out if your character can remember it at the time when he needs it. YOu simply have a list of "important" books you have read, and besides those you could have a vast "public" library, with non-relevant (at least directly) background stories, monster compendia, books about everything, books by players....

Or, if you split up books into stats-gainers and general information. The stats gainers would be rare, or give a very specific bonus (like +1 for Klingon interaction, +1 to kill certain type of monster), but only IF you have read the whole 300 page work "The common wyvern, hunting patterns and mating rituals". This, of course would have to take a while (if it´s an online RPG REAL time), like this "no, our mage is in the library at the moment, oh, no, he´ll be back within a day or two." And then maybe if the mage is smart enough (teach skill maybe?) he can sum up the book and tell the others about it.....
The number of stats giving books could easily be limited to a few per library ("We really must get to Golamarr sometime, i hear they have the only remaining copy of "Explications on the bone-structure analysis of hill giants"...")

but i guess i´m talking too much, ´cause the use of stats changing books and such would have to be tailored to the experience and upgrade system and that´s a different story....

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Original post by Lynck

I am making a game that has fully stocked libraries. It will take a year or so, but there will be hundreds of books in the libraries. I got a team of about 10 people that are really good writers in my school, and i am assigning them books to write. It is coming along pretty good.

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A year!

Don''t you anything better to do with your time?!? That time could have been used making a game for heavens sake. If I want to read books I will read some books by really good authors. (As in the thread with Perfectly written books in writers forum)

I will certainly not play a game that is 90% reading amateur books and 10% actual playing.

The idea of using old classic works for a library could be quite good assuming that it fit in the world/setting. For instance, a Call of Cthulhu game (the P&P game focuses a lot on books) with a large library and in it was many of the works from Project Gutenberg (a open source project for making digital versions of old book where the copyrights have expired). In Call of Cthulhu you could use works from before the 1920''s that time and thereby give the game a higher sense of reality.

Jacob Marner

Or you could approach authors and ask them if you can pay royalties to include snippets of their works in your game...

Actually, if I have such a place in my game, then I will have ideas from these forums hidden throughout books. Much more worthwhile if you ask me

-Chris Bennett of Dwarfsoft - Site:"The Philosophers'' Stone of Programming Alchemy" - IOL
The future of RPGs - Thanks to all the goblins over in our little Game Design Corner niche
          

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Original post by Hase

the idea of learning from books is not bad but the only reason why it works so well in fallout is that books have become very rare in the postnuclear world. If you really have a well stocked library what would prevent players (especially beginners) from reading ALL the skill-relevant books there?

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You can learn only so much by only reading, and reading takes time. If read a thousand books about cooking, you will definitely not be a master chef. If you read a thousand books about physics, you can not solve a complex physics problem. You also need practice and experience. To become a master chef you have to make food, to solve a physics problem, you have to calculate, calculate, think and calculate. Reading does not suffice.

EDIT: Perhaps reading could raise your speed of skill increase, but not increase the skill itself. Eg. if you need 400 experience points to gain a skill level (though I don't like skill levels as such, this is just an example ), reading a book might reduce this by 10%, but you could never gain a level by reading books only.

-Jussi

Edited by - Selkrank on November 14, 2000 6:17:38 AM

The fact of a year is I am a fast writer, I get ideas and can put them down very fast. I DO have a life too ya know. I go to school, read pleanty of books, etc... Also, I am working on 3 other games that I am getting paid for by my friends. So, you understand why it will take a year? Tons of awesome games took about 2 years to make. I rest my case