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Read Before Posting about MMORPGs

Started by necreia Jun 18, 2005 at 10:31 AM 21 replies 10.2k views
Original Post
necreia
necreia
As of late there is an explosion of 'new' MMO projects on these forums. In general this isn't an issue, but not only are most of them very simple and undeveloped ideas, they push other potentially successful games (even potentially successful MMORPGs) off the front page where they will be noticed. Making a MMO is not impossible, it's just extremely difficulty (if do-able) without a semi-large team, lots of time (much longer than any other game type), and previous game-development experience (even hobby). I have attempted to join 2 MMO projects, and they usually don't turn out well (both times were because the 'leader' up and vanishes one day). That doesn't mean they can't be done, or if the person is really dedicated enough that they can't come here to create one. I don't want people to be discouraged in chasing their dreams, but they should be prepared to take them on before involving other peoples lives into them. There is a lot more pre-planning required to make a successful MMORPG than many do, when making a MMO post please do the following:
  • Read the rules (linked HERE) at the top of the page, and post according to the plan laid out by the moderator.
  • Make sure you have planned the game out: If you're starting the project, and have labeled yourself as the lead developer (or simply don't have programming / art / sound skills), then have your end well developed before adding people. That means a meaty design document (don't have to display it to the public, but let it know you have it ready), a team and project name at least, the overall-story or plot, gameplay mechanics, what API's you will be using (very important), what model formats (if looking for art people). Also remember to put a realistic size and target aim for the project.
  • Use proper grammar in a recruitment thread: First impressions will attract skilled people who will help your project succeed.
  • This one is important, show that you can do what you say: This is a large scale project, and being able to manage / run such a large task requires some sort of insight on how you know how to do it. This can either be professional or hobby portfolio, any sort of links or information about your previous projects (solo or not)… or anything else that you have done that can be considered relevant leadership or management. If you are a leader, prove why.
  • Be respectful: People will post discouraging things OR opinions / directions in your thread. How you respond to those comments will really profile you as a person. Will you take actual good advice or are you too set in your ways to change? Will you attack the person and return-flame, or brush it off with confidence? If cornered about lack of abilities, will you link work you've done… or ignore it? Observation of a persons response to the public is the best way to view, and assess, the skills of the potential manager. Remember this is a community, and the public has the right to respond just as much as you have the right to post.
    • If you are still set in your ways and want to make a MMO, that's great. Here are some helpful links to get you on your way: General MMORPG creation documents: - How to make a great MMORPG - Beginners guide to making MMORPGs - GameDev's Online Game design articles Programming resources for MMORPGs - GameDev's Multiplay/Networking programming articles If anyone wishes to add more links to assist with upcomming MMORPG's (or advice), feel free to post (and I'll update the main thread). [Edited by - jbadams on September 28, 2007 5:40:47 AM]
    TheArtifex
    TheArtifex
    (Good post, necreia, especially the "be respectful" one.)

  • Baby steps. None of the few hobbyist MMORPGs that have flourished from these forums were built by teams that just went from one person to thirty overnight, or over a week, or even over a year. Growing too quickly is very, very dangerous. If you're serious about this, please spare yourself a lot of headaches, and don't try to build your entire team at once. Look around for four or five people who are pretty good at each of the different areas of game development: one network coder, one client/graphics coder, one concept artist, one 3d artist, one musician, and someone who's been on a project that did well. If you can't get these people, then there's a good chance you need to look your project over again, or find some way to make your project look more secure.


  • Look good, don't lie. Let's face it: there are a lot of hobbyist projects being started, and you want yours to be the one people want to join. To do this, you need your project to be appealing. Feel free to flaunt whatever artwork you've got done, or some of the great people on your team, so far. People will generally join whichever startup team shows the most organization and the most serious outlook on getting real work done: not the one with the coolest idea. And, whatever you do, don't lie about yourself or your team. If you've only got two members and four pieces of concept art, then don't say "a handful of great coders and a lot of concept art". Tell it like it is. If the raw truth isn't impressive enough, then take some time to make it more impressive, before trying to flaunt it.


  • Make sure you're actually ready to make some serious changes. I don't mean to promote my own writings, but I'll do it anyway. Go check out this article on the psychological hardships of indie game development. Chances are, you're not fully prepared for this project financially- but that's something that, in time, can be overcome. If you're not willing to make drastic alterations to your daily life for this project, though, then please spare us all the trouble. Hobbyist or not, your project must be taken seriously if you ever hope to see it succeed.


  • Have realistic goals, ambitious as they may be. A lot of people will tell you that an MMORPG is just too big for a hobbyist team, but I tend to disagree. HOWEVER: you have to keep your sights realistic, or you have no chance for success. Sure, do an MMORPG, and yes, try to be innovative. But remember. You're still hobbyists, and you simply can't do some of the things that commercial groups can.


  • Do it for the right motives. If you're doing this for the hopes of a financial return, get out now- the chances of you making enough money to cover your own server costs are slim, let alone make a profit. If you're doing this to impress your gamer friends, get out now- they'd much rather be playing Guild Wars. If you're doing this for experience, good- just make sure you realize that hobbyist experience and commercial experience aren't identical. If you're doing this because you love doing this, good- make sure everybody else on your team is there for the same reason.


  • Don't give up. If you really are serious about all this, then by all means, do it! As long as you're good to go, then we all want to see you at least try. But if you're not ready for this, please step down now: save some time for yourself, and spare any developers you might recruit from being jaded by the hobbyist community.
    • necreia
    necreia
    Great additions TheArtifex, I've read your article before and it's great for newcommers.

    Quote:
    Original post by M__N__M
    This post is very good, I'd suggest it be renamed to "Read Before Posting about MMORPGs" or something like it and stickied


    That's a good idea as well, on one hand it would just be 'another sticky' to fill up the front page, but it might reduce the 1-3 MMO topics a day to a more reasonable number (imagine how many MMO's would actually exist if they all made it?)

    I'll change the title, it's up to the mod's if they wanna sticky.

    Raduprv
    Raduprv
    BTW, now that I want to brag or anything, but I am working at my second MMORPG (as those who read my dev journal know) for about 8 months or so. Except for some help from two EL developers, I am doing almost everything by myself. And I am not posting asking for help here (well, I did once, but offered some money for a few tools, and I also posted looking for some map makers, but couldn't find any so I gave up).
    The bottom line is, you should post here to ask for HELP, not to ask for people that will do the game for you. If you want to build an MMORPG, you will have to write at least as much code as the other developers, preferably much more.

    Another thing: It took me almost 10 years of programming until I started working at Eternal Lands. And I did have two failed attempts before.
    TheArtifex
    TheArtifex
    *nods*

    I think Rad's always stood out as the "yes, it's possible" guy, and I owe much of my own motivation to that.

    One thing I would like to point out, though, is that the lead doesn't necessarily need to be a coder, in my opinion. Obviously, the perfect leader is good at everything, including coding. But I'd much sooner work under someone who was experienced in music composition, audio engineering, webdesign, writing, art, modeling, unwrapping/rigging, texturing, and animation (but not coding experience) than one who was an expert coder without a drop of experience in the other fields.

    Just my two cents, here, though.
    Raduprv
    Raduprv
    I disagree. I think that the leader has to be a programmer, because only a programmer can tell the others what to do. For example, you need to tell the nusic people what format yuo want the music in.
    You need to tell the artists how many colors to use/texture, what file format to use, what 3d format to use (different formats have different features and limitations), and so on.
    Plus, only a programmer can tell what features are possible and what features are not. The core of the game is the code, everything else (art, design, etc.) are joined together by the code.
    ukdeveloper
    ukdeveloper
    FYI I reported this for Stickification.

    Rating++ necreia, you raised some very important and good points.
    videodragon20032003
    videodragon20032003
    Quote:
    Original post by Raduprv
    I disagree. I think that the leader has to be a programmer, because only a programmer can tell the others what to do. For example, you need to tell the nusic people what format yuo want the music in.
    You need to tell the artists how many colors to use/texture, what file format to use, what 3d format to use (different formats have different features and limitations), and so on.
    Plus, only a programmer can tell what features are possible and what features are not. The core of the game is the code, everything else (art, design, etc.) are joined together by the code.


    But that's why you appoint a tech lead. Ideally, if they don't program, a team leader should be the art director for a small team, and great for PR... If the only skill you possess is "i have 15,00 ideas", then don't post, asking for help.

    My $0.09. $0.02 without the inflation.
    necreia
    necreia
    Quote:
    Original post by ukdeveloper
    FYI I reported this for Stickification.

    Rating++ necreia, you raised some very important and good points.


    Thanks!

    Quote:
    Original post by videodragon20032003
    But that's why you appoint a tech lead. Ideally, if they don't program, a team leader should be the art director for a small team, and great for PR... If the only skill you possess is "i have 15,00 ideas", then don't post, asking for help.


    Even though it seems most people who posts about MMO's, their 'ideas' are usually just an unexplained solution to the usual 'problems'... (aka: level grind, economy, combat system). It's very rare to ever find a MMO post that doesn't claim to have a solution to those issues.

    I agree with both of you, it all depends on the angle in which you run your team. Someone with art skills can lead a MMO team, however their PR skills HAVE to be top notch.
    Raduprv
    Raduprv
    Quote:
    Original post by videodragon20032003
    But that's why you appoint a tech lead. Ideally, if they don't program, a team leader should be the art director for a small team, and great for PR... If the only skill you possess is "i have 15,00 ideas", then don't post, asking for help.

    My $0.09. $0.02 without the inflation.


    If you have money, sure, you can appoint a tech lead. But the thing is, most of the teams can not be started until there is something to show.
    For example, if I post:
    Quote:

    OMG I have an idea how to make the best MMORPG evar!11! i need people 2 help me and i will pay u if we make money from the gaem

    People will just laugh at me, and flame me and/or ignore me.
    However, if I post:
    Quote:

    Hi guys, I am a programmer, and in my spare time in the last year I programmed this MMORPG that is playable, but I could use some help with the art and maybe some programming


    People might be more inclined to join the team.
    Of course, if a GREAT artist has a GOOD design document, AND most of the art done, he or she has good chances to find a team of more or less dedicated programmers. But usually the programmers start projects, and then the artists join.
    The Najdorf
    The Najdorf
    I agree, the leader of a team should be the main programmer.

    A programmer knows what's doable what's not, what is easy and what's impossible, the general structure of the game, how the pieces fit together...

    And the designer must be a programmer, otherwise most likely you would get vague ideas without a precise implementation plan, or unimplementable ideas (I believe programming also improves your design mentality)

    And as Radvpr implies, it's hard to work in team, especially on free lance projects. I say 2 programmers is ok, 3 is still possible, 4 or more... very hard, people just quit, get bugged...

    a solid team is 1 programmer + 1 artist.
    Got a Mac? Check out my game at [a]http://www.radicalrebound.com[/a]
    Andrew Russell
    Andrew Russell
    Stickified. This is now an informational thread - if you want to discuss the pros and cons of having the programmer as the team lead in detail - new thread please.

    More information for potential MMORPG team leads - feel more than free to post that.
    Raduprv
    Raduprv
    I also feel that the best starting team is one programmer one artist.
    If the game is 3d, and the artist can do only 2d or 3d, two artists are OK.
    Later on, after the programmer wrote a client and server that allow you to move around and such, you will need a level/map/world builder. The artist can usuall do that, but unless all the art is done (which is unlikely) it's good to have someone to do only that (world building).
    At this time, getting another programmer is a good idea. Ideally, one programmer has to focus on the server, and the other on the client. This way, you can avoid all kind of problems when two or more people work at the same program.
    The communication between all the team members is crucial. If possible, real life meetings should be held every few weeks. If not possible, voice conferences are good (and free).
    The communication should also include forums, because this way it's written down somewhere, so you can review it, modify it, etc.
    Adraeus
    Adraeus
    The optimally organized team begins with a project manager, a game designer, and a concept artist. The foundation upon which a project will rest should be solidified before attempting prototyping and development.
    • The project manager should produce the documentation necessary for effectively managing the team (e.g., hiring and firing, appropriating human resources to various tasks), managing the project, and managing the resources available to the team and project. Such resources include, but are not limited to, finances, defect tracking and repair strategies, human conflict resolution, and content management. The role of project manager (a.k.a. producer) should not be taken lightly.

    • The game designer should design the game from a high concept to a detailed rules-laden specification. In addition, the game designer should work with a concept artist to facilitate visualization of the design and to aid the producer's recruitment efforts.
    The first position that should be filled after the foundation work is completed is the role of the Quality Assurance Lead (a.k.a. Lead Tester). This is an important immediate decision because as some have pointed out: untested software is defective. Developer-tested software remains untested. The development process should include testing at all stages of the project.
    • The Lead Tester should operate under the supervision of the Producer and develop the materials necessary for managing the test process.
    Tip: Do not confuse efforts with results. Learn from successful studios that make things happen. Organize and manage your resources. Do not recruit for every position needed throughout the process immediately. Build a project team slowly. Start small, finish big.
    TraderJack
    TraderJack
    Oh, and those who wish to post about an MMORGP, do not put under 'Project Details' (out fo lack for any other type of preparation) the story. If you really think it's important, then give us a link to the story page of your website. Nobody wants to read through 2 paragraphs about 'Planet X rebuilding itself after Great-War-To-End-All-Everything' hoping to find something they can actually use.

    -IV
    -IVHumble Student
    necreia
    necreia
    On a good note, it appears this post has worked quite a bit.
    MonkeyInBlack
    MonkeyInBlack
    May simply be because it's the middle of the week. The MMORPG posts tend to appear more often during the week-end.
    rian carnarvon
    rian carnarvon
    Somebody should mention this too:

    -Since i assume that all the new mmorpg posts have been spawned by the new RealmCrafter development kit; i think that people looking for more team members should mention that, if people want to join thier team, they will need to put out 55$ to 110$ american to buy RealmCrafter
    d000hg
    d000hg
    Excellent thread. Funny as they are it would be nice if most of the posts weren't for MMORPGs. How many of these games do we actually need anyway - given the time it takes to get established in such a game as a player, do they really buy/sign up for another game every week?!

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