What have been the good things about past CRPGs?

Personally I think the "good things" are really just relative to the bad and can really only be generally explained without citing specific systems. So, in general, games that allow you to customize your characters stats upon level up, games that are multiplayer rpgs, multiplayer rpgs that have a good item distribution method (ie: not first one to pick it up). Games that have enough choices so Wizard Bob and Wizard Jim can have different stats and different spells, but still be as effective as each other. Elemental differences generally don't count in those situations. In essense, all good things can be linked back to variety, choice, and ease. (for me at least)

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Original post by KingRuss Personally I think the "good things" are really just relative to the bad and can really only be generally explained without citing specific systems. So, in general, games that allow you to customize your characters stats upon level up, games that are multiplayer rpgs, multiplayer rpgs that have a good item distribution method (ie: not first one to pick it up). Games that have enough choices so Wizard Bob and Wizard Jim can have different stats and different spells, but still be as effective as each other. Elemental differences generally don't count in those situations. In essense, all good things can be linked back to variety, choice, and ease. (for me at least)

These are some very good points. I know the good things are going to be at least somewhat relative to the bad, or else this wouldn't be the sister thread to "what have we not liked?" However, in the course of posting on that thread, I came across several instances where I really wanted to make mention of aspects that I really have enjoyed, but it would have been out of context for that thread. So here we are. I don't mind if people cite specific systems. Perhaps in so doing, we can approach an amalgamatory perspective that encompasses multiple systems.

Here are some of the things I have been wanting to say that I have liked or loved:

1) RPGs and especially FPS RPGs that have any kind of multiplayer option available. I particularly like it when they offer a LAN option and not just an internet server. I also really like it when there is a cooperative mode.

2) Ample inventory space and encumberance (or no emcumberance).

3) Games where what you do determines what skills you improve in.

4) Games where there are no specific classes. You do what you want to do, and you become some "type" by virtue of being better at it than anything else.

5) Games that actually show little things like bowstrings and sheaths.

6) Great graphics, music, and sound never hurt.

7) Realistic, believable physics.

8) Games that employ a reputation system at all, even if somewhat badly done (i.e. with omniscient NPCs, etc).

9) Games that avoid repetitive and annoying sound effects.

10) Games that do a good job of hiding or obscuring the limitations that all games must have and avoid "invisible barriers."

11) Good, strong, combat AI that supports mob teamwork.

12) Games that don't put obvious, relatively low caps on level maxes, like Lvl 60 in WoW.

13) Games that have good implementations of running stamina that a character can level-up in, or no stamina concerns.

14) Games that use numbers well, and don't show them in inappropriate ways that shoot immersiveness in the head. I don't want to see damage numbers popping up out of some monster's hide.

15) Well-developed and compelling storylines.

16) Games that don't make the player do anything specific if he or she doesn't want to. Games that let you wander and explore indefinitely, if you so choose.

17) Well-developed and detailed world/cultural histories.

18) Inventory systems that help you organize, store, and find things more easily.

19) Potions that you can drink part of, and save the rest for later, like in Dungeon Siege.

20) Games that allow you to customize armor and weapons in various ways.

21) Variety of terrain, climates, cultures, architectures, dress, allegiances, weapons, spells, quests, and skills.

22) Games that give you multiple ways to move yourself across the landscape more quickly than walking or running.

23) Skippable cutscenes, intros, and company logos.

24) Cool front-end menuing systems, like Dungeon Siege or Starcraft, which have animated panes, good transitional and activation sound effects, and background "idle" animations.

25) Games with in-depth character creation processes, and the ability to shortcut through most of it by taking a "test" of some sort to determine what attributes you would probably be most comfortable with your character having.

26) FPS RPGs that also allow you to view your character and items from all sides in a third person view, either in the main viewing area or as a special side-pane. It's especially cool when you can run around in third-person for as long as you like and see all your moves externally.

27) Good power balance.

28) Overhead maps, especially ones that only show what you've actually seen so far. I also like maps that let you place little note "pins" that show your comments to yourself about that area when you mouse over it.

29) Games that don't require you to click like a madman to win a fight. A single click-and-hold should suffice for many attack or landscape navigation tasks.

30) Games that have enough AI to make your character fight back automatically when attacked, at least in a rudimentary way (i.e. using no special strategies). I hate running out of the room to get something real quick and when I come back I'm dead or standing still like an idiot while being wailed on. Nobody would ever react that way. Now, I suppose you could say that me being out of the room is equatable to my character's mind being elsewhere. However, unless I'm the victim of a lobotomy, I'm going to respond when attacked. In real life, I have even woken up from a deep sleep filled with dreaming just because I heard a noise, much less if I had been being beaten on! Now I realize this comment borders on qualifying for "what I don't like in games," but I have played games that let your character fight back automatically, like Dungeon Siege or StarCraft. In the case of an FPS RPG, you could perhaps require the player to switch to a special third-person mode in order to have the computer take over if attacked.

31) Games that let anyone use or wear anything, regardless of class or abilities. They may just not use it very well at all, but at least they can don it and try.

32) Games with avocations, like fishing, hunting, and dancing.

33) Games that let you acquire (build, buy, steal, whatever) a house or houses to sleep in, store you stuff in, etc.

34) Games that do a good job of portraying the passage of night and day cycles.

35) Games that allow stealth, subterfuge, lockpicking, and subtlety (politicking, networking, persuasion, intimidation, etc) to be acceptable and accessible alternatives to combat.

36) Games with some gore!

37) Games that don't perform constant disc checks, so I can play my own custom music CDs without having to have two CD-ROM drives.

38) Games that allow companions and minions/followers/henchmen. If done well, it's just plain cool to have friends. Being done well would entail having companions that offer quests or require quests to find them. They can heal you and fight for you. You can take pleasure in upgrading their gear as you can afford it. You can also enjoy developing a relationship of awareness and trust with them, and possibly even romance.

39) Games that feature cameo appearances by David Hasselhoff.

40) Long view distances (i.e. far +z direction frustum.)

41) Games that introduce concepts other than just magic. Like psionics or technology, or the interfacing of these with magic, like in Arcanum.

42) Games with a good balance of normal vs. magical items and non-random epic, unique, and set items.

43) Games that feature minigames for some of their aspects, like for fishing, lockpicking, and puzzle-solving.

Ok, this should be good for starters. Hopefully this will serve as a good list unto itself and also as a spark for further ideas and discussion. As always with any of my posts, feel free to respond critically. Oh... and one of these items is not serious. Can you guess which one?

~Ranger Meldon~ M.M. .:

Here's my very short and personal list:

1) Games that are designed for smart or determined players. Don't give away the plot. Don't answer the riddles. Don't assume the player is any less intelligent than you are. If progress is vital, just allow an alternative strategy that is not very fun or takes a long time.

2) Games that cater to min-maxer munchkins. Most of the story is only good the first time through. You better provide some complicated character evolving if you want anyone to play it again (and again, and again). It also helps to provide lots of world custimization. Allowing the player to build a house, build a car, weapons, castles, ships, etc. Munchkins love these things too, and they don't get in the way for non-munchkins.

3) Complicated combat. Just add as much complication as possible. I won't complain. I've never experienced any combat in an RPG where I didn't think adding more detail and interaction would help. Diablo is like the biggest clickathon I've ever played, unless you primarily cast spells. Diablo 2 added little special moves that really helped mix things up and added a lot of strategy. They needed more, but they headed in the right direction.

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Original post by Ranger Meldon 29) Games that don't require you to click like a madman to win a fight. A single click-and-hold should suffice for many attack or landscape navigation tasks.

I'd like to add the idea that simply clicking to fight is a bad design, regardless of how many times you have to do it. You're certainly not testing the player's skill by making them hold the button down and watch an enemy die. So what is the point? If your combat consists of nothing but repeated click-attacks and click-spells, you might as well avoid combat completely and automate the process. It doesn't matter if they have other options if the player never needs those other options. You need to force the player to make decisions beyound where to click. Like called shots and types of thrusts.

I agree that reducing the number of clicking in all types of situations is a very good design. Don't use 'double-click to select' designs, and allow the return and escape keys to instantly get through menues or default to obvious buttons. A really good example of a game that made you click your head off was Fallout 1 + 2. Looting and moving things between inventories was a nightmare. If there were 2 of some item, first you had to click down and drag the item, then click again to increase the number of items to 2, then click ok. For the sake of all humanity, they should have added the ability to hold Control or shift as you drag items to allow dragging all of the items at once without any menues.

Lastly, do not ask the user if they are sure they want to exit on your main menu. Or anywhere for that matter, unless it can result in losing progress.

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30) Games that have enough AI to make your character fight back automatically when attacked, at least in a rudimentary way

For MMO, maybe. For single player, just pause the game. But even in MMO situations, if the result is rudimentary, is it really even helping? If your AI is anywhere near decent, it's going to counter your "dumb-auto-ai" and beat you to death anyway. And if it's smart enough to defend against humans and smart AI, it's just unfair and shouldn't be added.

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33) Games that let you acquire (build, buy, steal, whatever) a house or houses to sleep in, store you stuff in, etc.

175% Agreed.

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38) Games that allow companions and minions/followers/henchmen. If done well, it's just plain cool to have friends. Being done well would entail having companions that offer quests or require quests to find them. They can heal you and fight for you. You can take pleasure in upgrading their gear as you can afford it. You can also enjoy developing a relationship of awareness and trust with them, and possibly even romance.

There's also something very cool about hiring henchmen. Having to actually pay them for their job or time is very realistic and adds a lot of depth. For example, you could hire a bodyguard when you play a theif character, so that you never need to fight. It isn't cheap and lame, because you have to actually pay the bastard.

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Original post by Jiia Quote: 30) Games that have enough AI to make your character fight back automatically when attacked, at least in a rudimentary way For MMO, maybe. For single player, just pause the game. But even in MMO situations, if the result is rudimentary, is it really even helping? If your AI is anywhere near decent, it's going to counter your "dumb-auto-ai" and beat you to death anyway. And if it's smart enough to defend against humans and smart AI, it's just unfair and shouldn't be added.

Well, mostly I just meant that something would be infinitely better than nothing, as far as this is concerned. It would at least make me die less quickly. If I'm out of the room for longer than that, I deserve to die anyway. At least I would feel like my guy fought back. It would be the equivalent of him fighting while being distracted or preoccupied, in the sense that his apparent skill level would be much less without me playing him. I like the pausing idea for single player mode. But I did also have LAN multiplayer co-op in mind too.

Oh, and I like games that allow you to select someone to follow around in a cooperative situation, and also especially when those games allow you to still attack and heal, etc while following.

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Original post by Jiia There's also something very cool about hiring henchmen. Having to actually pay them for their job or time is very realistic and adds a lot of depth. For example, you could hire a bodyguard when you play a theif character, so that you never need to fight. It isn't cheap and lame, because you have to actually pay the bastard.

I like this idea, and I agree with it very much. There are very few people in life who are going to be willing to follow you around blindly, much less without compensation for their time.

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Original post by Jiia You need to force the player to make decisions beyond where to click. Like called shots and types of thrusts.

I highly agree with this. I have had something like this in mind for my own combat system, but I didn't think to mention it, so I'm glad you did. Stuff like this is going to prove very important in making the next generation of innovative games.

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Original post by Jiia Lastly, do not ask the user if they are sure they want to exit on your main menu. Or anywhere for that matter, unless it can result in losing progress.

Oh, I HATE that! They give you credit for being able to make complex strategic and planning decisions, not to mention coordinated timing and reflex choices, but they apparently don't expect you actually meant to click 'exit'. Right.

Thanks for responding with so much detail!

~Ranger Meldon~ M.M. .:

[Edited by - Ranger Meldon on July 15, 2005 2:25:55 PM]

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Original post by Ranger Meldon Quote: Original post by Jiia Quote: 30) Games that have enough AI to make your character fight back automatically when attacked, at least in a rudimentary way For MMO, maybe. For single player, just pause the game. But even in MMO situations, if the result is rudimentary, is it really even helping? If your AI is anywhere near decent, it's going to counter your "dumb-auto-ai" and beat you to death anyway. And if it's smart enough to defend against humans and smart AI, it's just unfair and shouldn't be added. Well, mostly I just meant that something would be infinitely better than nothing, as far as this is concerned. It would at least make me die less quickly. If I'm out of the room for longer than that, I deserve to die anyway. At least I would feel like my guy fought back. It would be the equivalent of him fighting while being distracted or preoccupied, in the sense that his apparent skill level would be much less without me playing him. I like the pausing idea for single player mode. But I did also have LAN multiplayer co-op in mind too.

Maybe adding additional mode (called "Autopilot"?), in which player's avatar would stand still while automatically responding to enemies would help: it could be triggered by some option in menu ("I'm wandering...") or automatically, when player haven't moved in last minute.

Of course, such system would be practically useless for mages, wizards etc. - in most games, they need to run while casting spells, otherwise even a few bangs in head by second-class warriar may kill them. OTOH, every warrior would be thankfull for it.

Also, such system would be suitable for MMO's, where "Pause" feature can't be implemented.


Just my 0.02 cents :-)

Well, #1 on my list is when RPGs actually have a real non-cliche, thematically meaningful story including deep characters and worldbuilding. But I guess that's kind of obvious for me. *points to what I am the moderator of* [wink]

Other than that, I like:

- Modular weapon/genetic/object construction systems where the player can build in-game objects which are then useful for something

- Character graphics which change to reflect your equippage and clothing

- Pretty anime art, especially when close-ups of characters' facial expressions help convey emotion (and beautiful animals and scenery too)

- Low combat to other stuff ratio (IMO the FF games have about 30% too much combat)

- Lots of mini-games

- Dating-sim interactions with NPCs

- Plentiful save spots or ability to save anytime

- Adventure game style puzzles

Meaningful character stats.
Frankly the Fallout + Troika games are the only ones ever made where your character's attributes ever meant anything inside the game world - rather than just being numbers to crunch.

You want to play a big dumb brute? Most of your dialogue options will be toned down to "hurrrrr".

You want to play a highly charismatic character? Watch as you talk your way around NPCs.

NPCs would react to your character in different ways depending on his/her stats. It's really great to play through a game once as a usual character, then go through it again as a manchild or savant just to see another way of dealing with the game world.

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1) Games that are designed for smart or determined players. Don't give away the plot. Don't answer the riddles. Don't assume the player is any less intelligent than you are. If progress is vital, just allow an alternative strategy that is not very fun or takes a long time.

Love games like that, the only game i've played so far thats actually made me play through it more than once to figure it out was Silent Hill. Ahh that was fun. :D

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1) RPGs and especially FPS RPGs that have any kind of multiplayer option available. I particularly like it when they offer a LAN option and not just an internet server. I also really like it when there is a cooperative mode.

I really love co-op modes, even if the enemies aren't that bright i enjoy running along in Single-Player type mode with a friend blasting them to hell. Its really irritating that the industry seems to have totally abandoned single player in favor of Death-Match games. I can just imagine how cool Halo would be with a co-op mode. :(

For my little list..

#1 "Can Do Attitudes", games that don't tell me with a stupid voice, or funny sound "I can't do that". There have been innumerable games that say "i can't carry that" or "i shouldn't drink that filthy water". If i want to drink the filthy water, let me and make my guy gag and puke all over his shoes, or let me carry the huge heavy thing and make my guy move like a snail, actions speak louder than words.

#2 Now i'm not sure if this would fit into the RPG category, but i really like Player action oriented skills. Now there's obviously aiming and shooting, but i also like having to draw the Runes to cast magic myself like in Arx Fatalis, or having to sneak and move stealthily picking locks like in Theif: The Dark Project. Skills that evolve past basic numbers and representations for me to take a more active role within the Gameworld environment, and don't solely involve me mindlessly blowing holes in things.

-A good, long story is very ipmortant;
The characters you play with must acting like in real world (feelings, pain ;-), etc...)
-Nice graphics, I also mention that I realy like the typical anime-style (I love anime...) with close-ups like someone already said;
-Good music of good quality is very important;
-Some in-game videos (afcourse with many detail and nice graphics);
-Many items like: weapons, potions and other;
-A fantasy tough realistic world (with big, bueatifull buildings and magicall forests and that sort of stuff);
-Sound effects from high quality, and not anoying afcourse;
-Minigames;
-A save funstion to save anytime and a Pauze thingy;
-A good combat system;
-Vehicles like boats, flying arships etc...;
-Much more...

-Fenryl-

Dungeon Master (the original, not Skullkeep) was one of my favorite RPGs. One of the things I loved about it was the "spookiness" of the whole environment. You walked around the first level and encountered these mirrors that had reflections of people whom you could bring to life before entering the dungeon. There was no way out but through, and besides your party there were no allies to be found; no inns to rest at (you slept on the floor), no temples to go for healing, and no shopkeepers to trade with. Scattered throughout the maze riddles and taunts being etched in the wall, with puzzles and traps to match. The first person view was quite well done for its time (1987), as well as the point and click interface to interact with the world. There were four classes (Fighter, Ninja, Wizard, and Priest) but all party members can and usually did advance in all four classes. Spellcasing was rather neat - you had to punch in symbols with the mouse and the spell would only be cast if the symbol was right. Some people hated this but I thought it was rather neat as you could experiment around with different symbols to see if you find a new spell. There was food and water as well, and at lower levels of the dungeon this became scarce. Again some people think that eating and drinking are not very heroic but in this one case I think it added quite a bit to the immsrsion factor. Combat was nothing to write home about - you would have to select the weapons had up to three different attack modes depending on your skill level, and manually swing every time - but given the tempo of the game it wasn't too bad. Even with its dated graphics, I have never seen any RPG with quite the scare and spook factor done as well Dungeon Master. And the puzzles were classic.

I also enjoyed Baldur's Gate (1 & 2). The script and voice acting (especially on the second was) were unrivalled. I feel the second one improved quite a bit over the first - the subquests were more detailed and made more sense. You almost always had a reason for going someplace on the map - it wasn't just "lets go exploring in the woods and see what we can kill/loot". Obviously the art work was better, but the outdoor maps were also laid out more logically; there were a major features in every map and a few "chokepoints" that made it seem like the map was not just some random place in the woods.

I liked Diablo 2 for a bit but never really got into the whole online thing or bothered beating the game on Hell and Nightmare. It got to be too much of a time killer and clickfest.

Well I definitely fall in the lower left quadrant (interaction with world), so alot of my motivation is in Exploring.

So I like:
-Open Ended Sandbox Explorable Worlds (ie Ultima Series).

-Game systems and Rules that are not fully explained (ie Diablo II Horadric cube).

-Detailed NPC character design and Interaction (ie Ultima Series, several NWN mods).

-Customization. Like D&D style cross and multi class systems. Crafting Systems. etc..

Things like that.

And personally I like Party control (turn based or Real Time). I do like playing single characters, but I also like party play.

But I think Most current CRPGs have really shunned the single player party play. I like Systems like BG 1 & 2, Old School D&D CRPGS like Eye of the beholder, and of course the Ultima Series (especially 6- 7.II).