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Dev Team, Dallas, TX, $$$$$

Started by I_Smell_Tuna Oct 17, 2005 at 5:59 PM 13 replies 1.4k views

Original Post

Oct 17, 2005 at 5:59 PM

Team name: None. Project name: None. Brief description: The game is going to be a realistic medieval MMORPG. The basic concept for the game has been developed, but no code, models, audio has been made yet. Some art has been made. The goal for the project is to design, develop, and publish a commercial quality game on a realistic budget (< $500,000) over the next 3-5 years. I'm a jack of all trades when it comes to computers and related fields, I am knowledgeable in hardware, programming, networking, databases, websites, and graphics. I hope to put my knowledge together with other team members to create a video game that is a potential money maker. Target aim: The aim is to create a commercial product that both hardcore and casual gamers can enjoy, which will be profitable for the creators. Compensation: Since this is a small team I hope to give each team member a fair percentage of the earnings based on time and content contributed to the project. An agreement will be put in to writing once there are a substantial amount of members to form an agreement. Technology: Since the project is on a limited budget I would like to develop the game with freely avaliable software such as Blender, and GIMP. The game will be developed using C++, OpenGL, and other cross-platform libraries in hopes of later porting the game to other OS's. The game will originally be developed for Windows. Other technological goals of the game will be 32/64-bit support, and multi-threading to utilize the newest main-stream processors. For our 3D modeling I hope to purchase a full body 3D scanner, or go to a 3D scanning studio to cut down on development time, and give the models as realistic a look as possible. I would really like to make clay sculptures of the monsters, tree trunks, or whatever else is going to be in the world and scan those also. This could potentially save months in develoment time. With luck I will be able to finance the purchasing of the 3D scanner myself. There will be room on the team for modelers to do detail work, and model items that cannot be scanned. I hope to give the game strong LAN and single player capabilities to reach to a broader market. I also plan on not charging a montly fee for online play. Production/Marketing: For the actual production of the game copies I have researched CD duplication hardware, CD printers, and DVD case packaging. With my current estimates I think it is possible to create a professional looking copy of a game in a DVD case for less than $1. Estimated production cost is at about $40,000 for all the equipment. With an excellent quality game, and propper marketing (posters, demos, commercials, trailers, ads) we could potentially sell a few hundred thousand copies. If we can produce a copy for $1, and sell it to a retailer for $30 (who sells it for $35-40 to the customer) thats a $29 profit per copy for the team. If we market well, and sell a reasonable amount (200,000+) thats (200,000x29) $5.8 million. Going this route instead of through a publisher cuts out several middle men and gives the team a higher profit for their work. If the game sells well the team could profit quite well in return. After production, distribution, and investor costs there should be several million for the team to split. Cha-ching! Other Costs Servers - $20,000 Fiber Internet Access - $2000+\Month Development costs - Approx. $5000 Marketing - Unknown at this time Distribution - $10,000 (semi-shipping to retail distribution centers) Production (Equipment) - $40,000 Production (Raw Materials) - $75,000 (Blank CD's, cases etc...) Talent needed: Experienced Linux and Mac programmers Texture Artists Audio Engineers Animators 3D Modelers Team structure: As of right now there are only two people on the develoment team. One is a friend of mine who is an artist, both him and I are drawing concept art. I will be acting as producer, lead designer, and lead programmer. I will oversee the project and carry out the vision of making an awesome game that many people will enjoy. Website: None yet. Contacts: Please e-mail me, reply, or PM me if you have any questions. tunabreeze@yahoo.com Feedback: Any Additional Info: The project is an overall very ambitious goal, I hope I can find people as ambitions as me to help make it happen. 1Up for the independant guys! [Edited by - I_Smell_Tuna on October 17, 2005 9:00:46 PM]

Obscure

Oct 17, 2005 at 7:28 PM

Quote:
Original post by I_Smell_Tuna
Production/Marketing:
For the actual production of the game copies I have researched CD duplication hardware, CD printers, and DVD case packaging. With my current estimates I think it is possible to create a professional looking copy of a game in a DVD case for less than $1. Estimated production cost is at about $40,000 for all the equipment.

With an excellent quality game, and propper marketing (posters, demos, commercials, trailers, ads) we could potentially sell a few hundred thousand copies. If we can produce a copy for $1, and sell it to a retailer for $30 (who sells it for $35-40 to the customer) thats a $29 profit per copy for the team. If we market well, and sell a reasonable amount (200,000+) thats (200,000x29) $5.8 million.

Other Costs
Servers - $20,000
Fiber Internet Access - $2000+\Month
Development costs - Approx. $5000
Marketing - Unknown at this time
Distribution - $10,000 (semi-shipping to retail distribution centers)
Production (Equipment) - $40,000
Production (Raw Materials) - $75,000 (Blank CD's, cases etc...)

I am afraid there are some pretty serious errors in your plan. 1. your unlikely to produce a commercial/retail quality MMORPG game using a hobby team. If it doesn't compete with the other retail MMORPGs for quality it probably won't get onto the shelves.
2. Retailers stock products based on marketing spend - if your game doesn't have a marketing budget of at least $200,000 plus (for the US) then they won't stock it. Retailers want games that punters know about and that means big marketing budgets.
3. You also have to pay the retailers to stock your game - tens of thousands of dollars in "marketing incentives" - in short you pay for your game to appear in their catalogue and for all the advertising they do. - This isn't optional.

- Points 2 & 3 above mean you are looking at UPFRONT costs of at least $250,000 to get your game into retail. If you don't have that sort of money retailers won't deal with you because they would rather have an EA/Activision/Eidos game on the shelf with a big ad budget instead.

4. "If we can produce a copy for $1, and sell it to a retailer for $30 (who sells it for $35-40 to the customer) thats a $29 profit per copy for the team." Sorry but these numbers are way out. Retailers won't deal direct with a company that only has one game to sell. You will need to go through distributors and between the retailer and distributor you will lose 50% of the retail price. That means you get around $15 gross. Deduct from that your cost of goods and shipping costs and you are looking at around $12 per unit. That would equal $2.4 million IF you managed to sell 200,000 units. However PC titles on such low development budgets are never good enough to sell that many units. The PC market is very hit driven with lower budget titles struggling to sell 30,000 units. That would net you $360,000 However in 2&3 above you spent $250,000 UPFRONT to get the game in to retail so having spent that you end up with $110,000 (before tax). Deduct from that you business running costs, bug fixing, customer support staff, payment processing etc etc.

Conclusion
It is tough enough for experienced developers with a big budget to make a MMORPG that sells 200,000 units. The odds of a hobby team even finishing a game are 1 in 1000 and probably 1 in 10,000 that it won't be rubbish. Even if it is finished it is unlikely to be good enough to get into retail and if it is good enough you will still need hundreds of thousands of dollars to pay the various marketing costs.

Retail simply isn't a realistic option for an indie. You need to look at the smaller indie MMORPGs such as "Second Life" to get an idea of where you are really heading. It isn't $5 million/200,000 unit sales I am affraid. With a hobby dev team on a $5,000 budget you will be lucky to sell 10,000 units. You will have to start small and work up over a number of years.

I_Smell_Tuna

Oct 17, 2005 at 8:30 PM

Luckly I'm an optimistic kinda guy. :)

1.) I have no intention of even trying to sell a game thats not of commercial quality. Doing so would just be a waste of my time and money. I'm here to earn it not lose it.

2.) I did mention that the game would have an overall budget of < $500,000. This money will come from my own pocket, as well as private investors.

3.) Same as above. What's another $50k when your already spending 200, and the return is huge?

4.) So if I did have more games to sell i.e. expansions, or battle chests, they would deal with me direct? Would it be best to approach retailers with a finished game as well as expansions for the near future?

And for the conclusion...I'll be moving to the Dallas area soon which will put me in a living situation where I will have no bills. I'll work for a while, save up a few grand and use that money to live off of, and buy items needed to develop the game. $5000 seems pretty reasonable considering the only big expense for development is the 3D scanner which won't be purchased for another year and a half, and which isn't counted against the $5000. Graphics tablet, audio recording equipment, and a new PC is the only other things I can think of off the top of my head that I'll need, that I don't already have.

I'm trying to approach this from a technological and bussiness standpoint as best I can. I'm not after the 'small potatoes', I'm trying to make this a profitable business venture. Thanks for critiquing my evil master plan, you've been a big help.

On a side note, did you mean people instead of punters? "Retailers want games that punters know about and that means big marketing budgets."

markdeaton

Oct 17, 2005 at 8:35 PM

I sense just a bit of hypocrisy. I received a PM not too long ago and a "warning level adjustment" from a Moderator that stated "If you're not interested in joining the project, please don't post in Help Wanted."

I_Smell_Tuna

Oct 17, 2005 at 8:38 PM

Hrm...seems as though a few people didn't get the memo.

jbadams

Oct 17, 2005 at 8:51 PM

Quote:
Original post by markdeaton
I sense just a bit of hypocrisy. I received a PM not too long ago and a "warning level adjustment" from a Moderator that stated "If you're not interested in joining the project, please don't post in Help Wanted."

Moderators aren't regular users, and are trusted to give criticism in a constructive manner. If the 'feedback' section at the end of the template allows it, then feel free to post your opinion as a regular user, otherwise leave it to the moderators.

Quote:

On a side note, did you mean people instead of punters? "Retailers want games that punters know about and that means big marketing budgets."

Think of it as "customers". See the second entry here.

skow

Oct 17, 2005 at 9:25 PM

You talk about a 500,000 dollar budget, have you secured these investors?

I_Smell_Tuna

Oct 17, 2005 at 9:36 PM

No I have not. No need to secure investors when I have nothing to show the investors. Fortunately I know some people though so securing money shouldn't be too difficult.

jpetrie

Oct 18, 2005 at 6:27 PM

Obscure has made many excellent points, which I will not dwell on except to say that "willpower" and "desire to succede" are, quite frankly, not enough to get an underfunded project to retail.

My suggestion would be to give up entirely on the idea of getting your game onto retail shelves, and consider online-only distribution. The marketing costs for that are likely to be smaller (admittedly I have done no research, however), and you can get a feel if your product would even be successful in a larger market.

Now, if I were a potential employee, these are the questions I would pose to you:

1) You say you have no investors yet, but will secure them once you have something to show them (viz., a prototype). This is good. However, how do you expect to fund the development of said prototype? I have bills, rent, other expenses. I cannot afford to spend six months or more working "for free" hoping to strike it rich later.

2) You mentioned you are in Dallas. I live in Baltimore. Will you pay my relocation? Help find me an apartment? Or are you only looking for local people?

3) I want to see a contract now. Before I join. Not "when there are enough members." There is no reason to defer that sort of thing, in fact there are plenty of reasons NOT to. I want to see a legally binding document that outlines who owns what (IP-wise) and what my stake in this venture is.

4) I totally support the use of GIMP and Blender! Excellent choice. Okay this is not really a question but whatever. ;)

Anyway. Those are some of the things that I think are important -- now granted you may not be considering this such a "serious" (i.e., professional, versus hobbyist) endevour and some of those things may not neccessarily apply (such as the issues regarded salary/compensation), but they are important to consider. It's likely that the people you want -- those with the appropriate skill level to produce the product you are envisioning -- are going to want answers to these questions and more.

That's my two cents for now. Hope it helps, and I wish you luck!

I_Smell_Tuna

Oct 18, 2005 at 8:20 PM

First off, thanks for the constructive criticism.

I know that will power and desire will not get me millions. I have talent and I reckognize this, that's why I'm trying to do something with it.

1.) Since the team is still being formed I do not know what kind of developer expenses will be required. If you require frequent compensation for your work then I will see to it that you get it. I would prefer freelance workers that can work for a percentage of the value of their work with royalties included once the game ships.

2.) Finding local people for the development team would be great, although I am open to distance development. I will be able to work very closely via telephone, and internet on the project with distance team members. If you are willing to relocate I will do everything I can to help make your move go as smoothly as possible. This includes finding an apartment that suits you, and any part-time work, should you need it. At this time it is unlikely that I would be able to pay for you to relocate to the Dallas area.

3.) I have decided that it would be best to put any contracts off until I have a number of perspective members since I do not yet know how I want to divide up royalties (I need to know how many members there are to accurately do this) and how much up front the team member wants. In short, contract(s) pending.

4.) Woo hoo for the free stuff!

This is a serious venture, I should have given the finances more though. I will probably revise the original post in the next week or so, feedback pending. Thanks!

wyled

Oct 18, 2005 at 8:31 PM

It is pretty unreasonable for an unknown company to jump straight into retail. Not only does it cost a lot of money, but having pre-existing products to show off helps a lot. MMORPGs are ambitious projects, and I believe the indie developer approach for MMORPGs is a great one. If you can successfully create a game, it will get attention. Getting a fan-base, even if small (1000-10000) can prove to be profitable. I support you in your endeavors but I cannot offer my services for free at this time. It's really hard to persuade a professional to work for free, I've tried a few times with mild success but always turns out bad. You are better off hiring people and paying salaries, even if low, it is still an incentive to work; and an MMORPG is A LOT of work.

I_Smell_Tuna

Oct 18, 2005 at 8:39 PM

What kind of work are you interested in doing, and what kind of wages are you wanting? MMO's are a lot of work so I'm trying to keep this project on a realistic time frame - 3-5 years.

wyled

Oct 18, 2005 at 9:01 PM

Hi, I sent you an email with some info.

Obscure

Oct 19, 2005 at 6:36 AM

Quote:
Original post by I_Smell_Tuna
First off, thanks for the constructive criticism.

I know that will power and desire will not get me millions. I have talent and I reckognize this, that's why I'm trying to do something with it.

There are two key issues here.
First that your understanding of retail publishing is faulty and as such not going to succeed because retail simply isn't financially viable for an indie.
Second and more importantly you need to focus on the fact you are an indie and as such you need to work differently. Companies like id, Climax, Bioware etc get their games into retail because the games have a big enough budget to make it worthwhile, but also because they have a publisher that has the cash, marketing skills and (equally important) existing sales connections to get game into retail. Just because other games go to retail it doesn't mean you can or should do so with your game.

Quote:
1.) ....I would prefer freelance workers that can work for a percentage of the value of their work with royalties included once the game ships.

Quote:
I'm trying to keep this project on a realistic time frame - 3-5 years.

So you want people to work for free for three years?

Quote:
3.) I have decided that it would be best to put any contracts off until I have a number of perspective members since I do not yet know how I want to divide up royalties (I need to know how many members there are to accurately do this) and how much up front the team member wants. In short, contract(s) pending.

Best for who? Put simple no decent business would expect someone to do any work at all without a contract. The fact that you don't know how the financial aspects of your business is going to work isn't a viable reason/excuse for not having contracts. You should create a proper plan for your business before recruiting a team.

//EDIT: Fixed some busted quote tags - Kaz.

[Edited by - Kazgoroth on October 19, 2005 9:36:55 AM]

I_Smell_Tuna

Oct 19, 2005 at 6:54 PM

Just because I'm an independant developer doesn't mean I shouldn't go in to retail. Obstacales are meant to be overcome, and one method doesn't fit every company. Let me explain again the financial agreement that I hope some of the developers will agree to. Do their development work for a fraction of their asking price 75% or so, in exchange for a percentage of the game royalties. I don't expect anyone to work for free. I also need to recruit the team before contracts are drawn up so that the contracts can be best fitted to the budget and schedule. The start of development is still several months off. I hope to get rolling sometime in early January after I have sufficent people contracted to do all the work that is need.

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