🔒 Locked

Common misconceptions in Christianity:Part 1

Started by jerubaal Oct 29, 2005 at 8:39 PM 184 replies 35k views

Original Post

Oct 29, 2005 at 8:39 PM

I was originally going to post this in the meaning of life thread, but then I realized that is went way off-topic and was too long for the middle of a 14 page thread where no one would ever read it. I was going to disprove through cold logic many of the misconceptions held by most modern Christian church. I would like to begin by saying that I by no means am trying to offend anyone. I am simply showing people the way to the truth. please feel free to reply with any evidences either supporting or opposing my own. Just please keep it clean and try to be calm in your replies. Thank you. Oh and for those of you searching for the meaning of life it's Right Here. The first topic in this forum series is entitled: "Grace versus Works" I chose this topic because for the first article because this seems to be a stumbling-block to most of the Christians I know, aside from the ones in my own church. I will adress it for the most part using the King James Bible(Old Testament New Testament), but I might also occasionally use The Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and The Pearl of Great Price, a collection of some of the translations and writings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Firstly I think it is expedient that we define what grace is. In simplest terms, it is the power of God unto the remission of our sins and salvation exaltation in God's eternal kingdom, provided to us by the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. In a sense, all men are saved by God's grace in the sense that we will all be resurrected and given perfected bodies, regardless of our actions. That, however is a topic that will be more deeply delved into when I cover original sin/the fall of Adam. The salvation that we are speaking of here is rejoining God's presence in his eternal kingdom. I firmly attest to you, that without good deeds and repentance(more on repentance in a later edition), we cannot rejoin God. Earlier in the meaning of life thread someone said that so long as you believe in Jesus in your heart you will be saved no matter what you do. The apostle Paul said:"For by grace are ye saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8)Many have assumed that , by faith it simply means a "belief" that Jesus is the Savior and Redeemer of mankind. In the clearest of terms, the apostle James said that such a belief as this is a false one. He proposes the question "What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" (James 2:14). He goes on to say that: "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17) and also: "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" (James 2:22) and then he concludes by saying "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26) The apostle Paul also wrote of how those that do evil will not be saved. He said "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?" (1 Corinthians 6:9). He also gives another great example, but it is rather long so I will quote the most important verse: "Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21) One of the greatest supports for the idea that we must have works to take advantage of God's gift of grace is in the Book of Exodus. God, speaking to Moses, shows not only the priniple of works, but also the great mercy that our father shows on his children. He says: "And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty" (Exodus 34:6-7) God also revealed the principles of grace, faith, and works to the ancient peoples of the American continents. In the Book of Mormon he revealed to a prophet named Nephi "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23) From all these scriptures we see how in order to take advantage of God's grace we need to perform "good works", commonly referred to as good deeds. This, however, is not all that must be done to attain salvation. In later articles I will explain and prove principles such as repentance, baptism, and countless other aspects of Christianity. Thank you for your time. Feel free to respond.

EvenLessBread

Oct 29, 2005 at 8:42 PM

Everything you need to know about Mormons can be found in Episode 712 of South Park.

Sneftel

Oct 29, 2005 at 8:43 PM

I have to say, I've always been a little leery of accepting any part of the New Testament other than the Gospels as "undisputable". I mean, everything else was just the writings of early Christians, right? Obviously their primality lends their interpretations some credence, but it seems like a bad idea to cite it as anything other than personal opinion.

DrjonesDW3d

Oct 29, 2005 at 8:44 PM

I must say that posts like this I find interesting. I am not religious at all, but I am very interested in people of all sorts. It's strange how several people can look at the same thing, and come out with totally different interpretations. Particularilly with that which we read.

It's just like the whole "Is Draco really evil?" debate from the Harry Potter series. People can quote specifics in the books and still come to different conclusions.

Part of being human I guess.

jerubaal

Oct 29, 2005 at 9:02 PM

Quote:
Original post by Sneftel
I have to say, I've always been a little leery of accepting any part of the New Testament other than the Gospels as "undisputable". I mean, everything else was just the writings of early Christians, right? Obviously their primality lends their interpretations some credence, but it seems like a bad idea to cite it as anything other than personal opinion.

The Gospels themselves were just writings of early Christians. Only 2 of the Gospels were actually written by Apostles(those set apart to administer in Christ's church). Mark, Luke, and Acts(also written by Luke) were written by early Christians. You could very well say that the epistles are more authoritative than Luke Acts and Mark by virtue of the authority held by the writers of the epistles. The epistles are letters to the various early Christian churches written by those having authority given by God himself(I might get into priesthood authority later, but for now just see Hebrews 5).
Also, in the Gospels, Christ himself teaches against the idea of faith without works(should have included this in original article) "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the dwill of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

Well, if anyone has anymore thoughts or opinions, feel free to share.

(BTW, that episode of South Park is pretty funny, but in no means is it an accurate representation of the Mormons)

EDIT: You said that "People can quote specifics in the books and still come to different conclusions." That is exactly the reason why I found scriptures that stated in the plainest of terms about the subject. There isn't much room for interpretation in the scriptures I quoted. Also, I see someone has already lowered my rating on this one...

Sneftel

Oct 29, 2005 at 9:13 PM

Quote:
Original post by jerubaal
The Gospels themselves were just writings of early Christians. Only 2 of the Gospels were actually written by Apostles(those set apart to administer in Christ's church). Mark, Luke, and Acts(also written by Luke) were written by earlier Christians.

Yeah, but it's still people giving historical accounts rather than stating their opinion of What God Thinks. Even the ones which are indirect, are still stating what they believe to be facts.

justdan

Oct 29, 2005 at 9:19 PM

I think that the idea that if you don't do good deeds you won't go to heaven is wrong. Anyone that accepts jesus into their heart will go to heaven. Someone that constantly does bad deeds dosn't have jesus in their heart. 1 Corinthians 6:9 is right but god makes us righteous so it dosn't really matter what you do since everyone sins and falls short of the lord.

jerubaal

Oct 29, 2005 at 9:27 PM

Quote:
Original post by justdan
I think that the idea that if you don't do good deeds you won't go to heaven is wrong. Anyone that accepts jesus into their heart will go to heaven. Someone that constantly does bad deeds dosn't have jesus in their heart. 1 Corinthians 6:9 is right but god makes us righteous so it dosn't really matter what you do since everyone sins and falls short of the lord.

I agree with you on the first part. That goes along with exactly waht I stated in my article, that "faith without works is dead". I was adressing the pervading belief in Christianity that simply accepting Christ as the savior without taking the outward actions to cement that faith is enough to get you into heaven. As for God making us righteous, that will be covered sometime later when I cover repentance, a necessary step on the road to salvation. Say, that's a pretty good title for my next one...

EDIT: fixed stupid spelling error

justdan

Oct 29, 2005 at 9:37 PM

Well god makes us righteous when we ask him into us so he forgives us of our sins. Yes, I believe that repentance is good but not how the catholics do it by naming every single sin and then asking for forgiveness.

Kwizatz

Oct 29, 2005 at 9:39 PM

Quote:
Original post by jerubaal
Quote:
Original post by Sneftel
I have to say, I've always been a little leery of accepting any part of the New Testament other than the Gospels as "undisputable". I mean, everything else was just the writings of early Christians, right? Obviously their primality lends their interpretations some credence, but it seems like a bad idea to cite it as anything other than personal opinion.

The Gospels themselves were just writings of early Christians. Only 2 of the Gospels were actually written by Apostles(those set apart to administer in Christ's church). Mark, Luke, and Acts(also written by Luke) were written by early Christians. You could very well say that the epistles are more authoritative than Luke Acts and Mark by virtue of the authority held by the writers of the epistles. The epistles are letters to the various early Christian churches written by those having authority given by God himself(I might get into priesthood authority later, but for now just see Hebrews 5).
Also, in the Gospels, Christ himself teaches against the idea of faith without works(should have included this in original article) "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the dwill of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)

Well, if anyone has anymore thoughts or opinions, feel free to share.

I always found the fact that the canonical gospels were written after the epistles (they were written on the late first to early second century) interesting from an investigative point of view, because:

1. You were lucky to live to 65 years then, how could the re-telling be acurate?, there was no way the writters were actually there to see Jesus in the flesh.

2. The epistles in no way re-tell, or even hint at how did Jesus died, and focus mostly on teaching doctrine, granted, the epistles were addresses to people who already had converted to christianity, so there probably was no need to re-tell the story.

3. There are no other records beside the late century gospels of Jesus ever existing, besides of those of Josephus, which a) Migth have been forged and b) if anything they talk about an early christian church, not the man himself.

Quote:
Original post by jerubaal
(BTW, that episode of South Park is pretty funny, but in no means is it an accurate representation of the Mormons)

Well, I have to say, that episode, The bit about the magic underwear on John Safran vs God, the ties to Freemasonry and those sick old men marring multiple teenage girls, really freak me out regarding Mormons, but, to each its own, the Mormons on these boards, strike me as more open, civilized and polite than some of the other christians.

Oh, just in case, I am Agnostic, and I am pretty much of the same opinions as LessBread on that other thread. [smile].

Cheers!

Name_Unknown

Oct 29, 2005 at 9:40 PM

I find it kind of interesting you are preaching christianity and your nickname is Jerubaal,
Which are you god or satan? That occultic thinking is the reason the world is all screwed up my friend, people mistake ethics as some kind of get-saved-quick thing and they are forgiven ever on to be a total asshole to everyone as they like and they are 'saved' so they don't have to worry about actually having ethics. Oh forgive me, you fu*#@ twat!

jerubaal

Oct 29, 2005 at 9:47 PM

Like I said, I'll get more into repentance later, but suffice to say, repentance is far more than just asking God. Also, listing off your sins to some priest is not repentance either, but more on that later. Now as to the question of the validity of the Gospels... Luke got all of the information that he compiled in his writings by interviewing people who had witnessed the events firsthand. He likely spoke to all of the apostles who were still living at the time, and probably also to many of the very early followers of Christ. Looking at it in this light, we can make the judgement that the Gospel of Luke is reasonably accurate, and since the other Gospels tell the same basic story we can infer that they have about the same amount of accuracy as Luke's. Not to say that the Bible is 100% accurate. But that is another discussion for another time. Anyway, keep asking questions or giving comments. Thank you.

A_Borellus

Oct 29, 2005 at 9:53 PM

Quote:
Original post by EvenLessBread
Everything you need to know about Mormons can be found in Episode 712 of South Park.

Joseph Smith was a prophet dum dum dum dum ....!

I'm sorry.

Well änyway, I'm certainly not an expert in religion but I belive the whole point about christianity was about being nice to people and loving people. Not about churches or religions or the inquisition or crusades etc etc...but genuinely caring about fellow human beings and thus being worthy of god, because of what you are, not because of some specific things you do. Shouldn't be that hard...but it is.

Chokki

Oct 29, 2005 at 9:53 PM

mormonism is so convuluted that I don't even know where to begin with debunking the things you've claimed.

jerubaal

Oct 29, 2005 at 9:54 PM

Name_Unknown, one of my very first requests was that everyone respond calmly and with respect. This is not supposed to be a flame war. Now, as to my name here on these boards, it is a very Christian name. After Gideon destroyed the altar to the false God Baal, he was given the name Jerubbaal(See the Book of Judges, I'm not gonna bother looking this one up... and ya, I know, I'm missing a 'b'...oh well) which means, "he that striveth with Baal." So I use that name because it shows that I am "striving" against falsities of all kinds, or something like that. Really, the main reason I picked it is simply because it looks/sounds cool.

justdan

Oct 29, 2005 at 9:59 PM

I think that all of the labels that fall under christianity is stupid. You're a christian if you believe in god and have jesus in your heart, end of story. It makes it much simpler and then you can believe whatever else you want to since that's all that really matters.

crusadingknight

Oct 29, 2005 at 10:03 PM

Quote:
Original post by jerubaal
Like I said, I'll get more into repentance later, but suffice to say, repentance is far more than just asking God. Also, listing off your sins to some priest is not repentance either, but more on that later.

Quote:
Common misconceptions in Christianity:Part 1

Could you please edit the title? This should be actually called "An introduction to the Mormon Faith", as you're contradicting the doctrine of other sectors of chistianity, thus limiting the explained misconceptions to Mormons, and I've actually seen a few new misconceptions of Catholics (who are christians too... technically the root christians, but I don't care for the "You were here first, but you got it wrong" debate, so I won't even get into that) introduced throughout the course of this thread.

Thank you.

jerubaal

Oct 29, 2005 at 10:05 PM

Quote:
Original post by justdan
I think that all of the labels that fall under christianity is stupid. You're a christian if you believe in god and have jesus in your heart, end of story. It makes it much simpler and then you can believe whatever else you want to since that's all that really matters.

The thing I've never understood is how so many people claim that Mormons aren't really Christians. The real name of our Church(Mormon was just a nickname given to us by early non-believers) is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. In other words, it is the true church of Christ, restored by divine manifestions and beings in the latter-days of the Earth's existence.

Chokki

Oct 29, 2005 at 10:12 PM

Quote:
Original post by jerubaal
Quote:
Original post by justdan
I think that all of the labels that fall under christianity is stupid. You're a christian if you believe in god and have jesus in your heart, end of story. It makes it much simpler and then you can believe whatever else you want to since that's all that really matters.

The thing I've never understood is how so many people claim that Mormons aren't really Christians. The real name of our Church(Mormon was just a nickname given to us by early non-believers) is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. In other words, it is the true church of Christ, restored by divine manifestions and beings in the latter-days of the Earth's existence.

Mormons aren't considered christians because they undermine fundamental principles of Christian faith. Namely, how Jesus relates in the Trinity and issues of salvation. You could say that mormonism is more or less just a cult in the eyes of christian denominations.

jerubaal

Oct 29, 2005 at 10:20 PM

Chokki, don;t know if that is what you personally believe or i you are simply trying to explain to me how other Christians can come to the conclusion that we are not, but I thank you for the new perspective.

According to Dictionary.com, a Christian is

1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

or

2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.

If I'm not mistaken, Webster's has very similar, if not identical, definitions.

Topic Locked

This topic has been locked by a moderator. New replies are not allowed.