Dynasty building instead of character building?

Personally, I don't think I'd need to have "dynasty stats" in order to feel emotionally invested in the family if the gameplay was handled in the right way. If you instill a strong sense of clanship, and get to see the next generation grow from children into adults (similar to that in the Sims or in Creatures), then I would be emotionally invested in their well-being.

However, having some sense of family accomplishment would also be a good idea. Here's some ideas just off the top of my head for what I think would make sense:

• Wealth and possessions; you've already mentioned this, and it's pretty self explanatory
  
• Family honour and prestige; you've also already mentioned this, and I think it's a good idea to have a clan/family reputation
  
• Genetics; the "nature" aspect of personality. While this might be a bit coldly eugenic, but if a strong family member has children with an equally strong mate, then the children should be strong as well. Likewise with weakness, or intelligence etc. This can be extended to all kinds of physical and emotional attributes.
  
• Training; the "nuture" aspect of personality. The parents can train their children to be better, or more like themselves (to respect the family traditions, maybe? Or simply to be the best they can be?). This can also give a gameplay incentive for bonding with the next generation that you will ultimately control (if I'm understanding your game correctly).
  
• Blessings/curses; similar to reputation, if you have a concept of prophecy or fate then characters could gain benefits (or penalties) to their children's legacy. This may or may not be appropriate based on your game world (if there is a concept of something beyond the player's control, or some sort of higher power or mysteries beyond comprehension, then this would work. Or if there were space gypsies [wink]).
  

As for how much you should be able to customise your character, I'm always in favour of high customisability. I suppose you could make it that if your character was an especially good role-model then the character's children would want to emulate him or her. Or based on their personality, they might rebel to become everything the character is not.

This is a really, really, REALLY good idea. I think one way to think about it might be in terms of family pride. For example, people are often proud of specific items from their families, i.e. furniture or paintings. Don't know how that would work in the game, but whatever.

One thing, though, is about permanance. Is this a strategy game where you play two hours and then the family you have just dissapears? In that case, I wouldn't care too much or become attached to the family. If this was an RPG or something wher eyou looked at a whole lineage of the family... well, maybe the family should exits before the player enters the world, so the player isn't "creating" the g=family per se, as much as entering a living thing with a past (and possibly some dirty secrets).

Uh.... I don't even know where this post is going, so I'll shut up now.

The character building could still stay if you want it to. I like the idea of slowly evolving your family based on each character's main life focus or practices. The change should be incredibly slow, but the maximum strength potentials could be very high, maybe unlimited. This would give me a strong sense of worth for building each character, even though they will eventually die. Well, until each child is born. But other family stats, like honer as you mentioned, could be built upon by any member of the family. It wouldn't need passed through the bloodstream :)

But if you introduce partners into the mix, the game could turn into a monster rancher. Probably best to have the opposite sex parent hidden from game presence. Players would be choosing mates to design their offspring, which isn't really how that sort of thing works. It might introduce different playing elements, though, if implemented a certain way.

I've considered this idea before (dynasty- or family-building) as a way to offset some of the drawbacks of permadeath. I think permadeath is a feature that can add a lot of excitement in dangerous situations, and adds a lot of "wow, that cave is TOO scary" that you might not otherwise find in a game. The big problem is obvious; it's just too disappointing when you lose a character, and can even cause someone to quit the game out of frustration / disappointment from losing their character. If your character's achievements benefit the dynasty though, then it might give just the right compromise between fear of losing characters, but no feeling of TOTAL loss upon death. There could even be a special memorial for particularly memorable characters in the family tomb, not just some text, but perhaps clicking on the tomb you could see a short video of the "memory" of that character in action, or something of the like, to add some kind of emotional attachment to the "important ancestors" of your clan.

Heirlooms.

• A clear sense of descendant succession.


• The ability to confer some measure of comparative advantage to your progeny/descendants as a function of your successes.


• A clear sense of progress/advance/increase over the span of your life.


• The growth of your family from a single individual into a sizeable, powerful clan, and the ability to select the fittest specimen as representative for future play if so desired.

Sound familiar? It should. I just described Spore.

Family is the system used in Rome:Total War. Provided they are married and you give them some time to settle in a city your family memebers breed and will pass on traits. There isn't much you can do to breed in new/improved traits but you can improve family members abilities by swapping advisors between family members. Even with a dynesty stat you still get attached to you best people.

The PC game King of Dragon Pass had a similra system where your people were led by a council. The memebers aged and died and were replaced by new members.

Thanks for the great replies. I can see a lot of different directions to take this, but I'm still struggling with how much something like this might hurt actual role-playing. Taking from above, a couple of follow-ups:

Genes and Traits
It's not out of character (though a bit creepy maybe as TZ mentioned) in a future world to select genetic traits and dispositions. Imagine, for instance, something like going to a company called Mind Design and paying for the chance of boosting your progeny's metabolism or disease resistance. As a cold mirror to reality, it may be that the great-great grandchildren benefit more from some ancestor's choice at gene sequencing as advantages pile up. The player, thinking in terms of his/her future dynasty, would know that.

So do you think something like this should be formalized and made an explicit part of gameplay, with players buying things like "Gene Armor" or "Terminator Gene Resistance" in the usual RPG bazaar/marketplace model?

Passing The Torch: When?
When should you be able to switch to progeny? I was thinking about skipping a generation or two so that you can play out a character fully, but I might be taking this too literally.

Family Feuds?
I've got a friend who believes that your family should never fight you. This fences out all sorts of "brother against brother" story / situation scenarios , but he might be right. Which is better, the possibility of variety and intrigue, or something you can rely on in a dangerous game world?

Nurture As Missions / Contests?
Not sure about this one (especially given the Monster Rancher feedback above), but I was thinking that your progeny could develop abilities and character flaws based on what you expose them to or situations you put them in. Constantly taking your children into danger might toughen them or break them, for instance, and this would impact the character you'd end up playing.

There's a danger of this sort of thing getting cumbersome or weird (like Princess Maker). What should happen, for instance, if you leave your child to die or be captured by hostiles?

This raises a lot of questions, so I really appreciate the feedback.

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Original post by Wavinator Family Feuds? I've got a friend who believes that your family should never fight you. This fences out all sorts of "brother against brother" story / situation scenarios , but he might be right. Which is better, the possibility of variety and intrigue, or something you can rely on in a dangerous game world?

I think that family would really stick together in a world where you can trust no one else. If I were you, I would choose to make family members unimaginably loyal, even to their death. There should be plenty of outside help to perform the back-stabbing and such.

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Nurture As Missions / Contests? There's a danger of this sort of thing getting cumbersome or weird (like Princess Maker). What should happen, for instance, if you leave your child to die or be captured by hostiles?

Do you mean to train them? Or just because the player wanted to see what would happen? Child death should be hidden. At least until about the age of 15. Probably just make the child vanish and never spoke of again. Normal players will be alarmed enough knowing that they were responsible.

If you mean to train, it depends on where you want to take it. In the Dragon Ball Z series, Goku left his son on a prehistoric island for a year to make him stronger. Of course, they were super freaks. But I think it's the same idea. There should be danger to such an action. But depending on his age and abilities, maybe there would be a time where the player would know that his game son will make it back alive, and with more skills. Or maybe the player should be put in control of the child during these types of training excersises.

What about dynasty points?

As the player plays through each chapter or lifetime they acquire dynasty points (dp) for a number of different reason. Such as in chapter one for every million credits they earn they get 1 dp and for each of their patron's objectives that they complete they awarded a number of dp.

Dynasty points are then spent between lifetimes or chapters to upgrade the dynasty or clan. There could be a number off different types of things they can purchases such as:

Ancestral home
Relics
Genetic Traits
Fleets
Alliances
Family Members
Wealth
Businesses
etc..

For instance in the case of the Ancestral home the play might start with nothing but they can then buy different levels of home:
Small house
Large house
Housing complex
Clan hall
Estate
Moon
Planet
Ring world

Different levels of home would open up purchase options for instance maybe you can purchase a fleet until you family owns a clan hall. Relics would be rare devices or relics that provide benefits to the clan. So, for instance the outsider statue reduces the chances of ship encountering a cosmic storm by 25%. While the protector fruit tree allows family members to increase their lifespan significantly by becoming a protector when they come of age.

How the player spends their dp would affect the choices and assets they have available to them in later chapters. The one thing you should consider though is how the new characters will start. I remember playing one game recently where you bought business and trained in guilds I forget what it was called. But it was very annoying because it took time to move of the political ladder and my character would always die just after being elected to a state office and then when I started playing as my decedent I would have start over from scratch again with no political office of any kind.

Wavinator: Just out of curousity, are we talking mostly sandbox or linear gameplay?

Another feature I would like to see is "son in father's shadow". When a character does something extraordinary, people will know their name and will remember it for generations. If the son or daughter of this legend were to follow in their footsteps, everyone would know this new person as the child of the legendary hero. It would probably be a real personal goal for the player to remove this shadow from the current generation - to give each character their own name.

I'm just assuming your game is taking place on some massive worldly scale. I would have trouble implementing such a feature myself. I suppose different achievements would need to be logged somewhere as important history, and characters would need to be capable of racalling them to relate to current events.

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Original post by Wavinator So do you think something like this should be formalized and made an explicit part of gameplay, with players buying things like "Gene Armor" or "Terminator Gene Resistance" in the usual RPG bazaar/marketplace model?

Aww, man, you were totally going in the right direction, and now you've ruined it :P Don't take me wrong, it's just that IMHO this is a kinda cheap form of gameplay. You buy everything else in your world, even character advancement. Why can't this be tied to a different system?
There was this thread not too much time ago where someone mentioned that it would be insanely cool if, instead of buying or finding different Weapons of Doom (tm), weapons were bought in their plain version and they would gain abilities, spells, curses (etc) when the player achieves a mission, or generaly as part of the missions and storyline.

Some examples were, a grateful wizard that incantates your weapon, or a blessing bestowed upon your sword to fulfil some prophecy. Random encounters where you proved your good would also be aplicable. The point is that you would get attached (the magic word!!) to your weapons, because they had a unique state that was tied to your story.
I know your game is sci-fi, but the idea wouldn't be hard to translate: the only way to improve your family stats (and everything attached to your lineage) could be through events related to the storyline.

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Family Feuds? I've got a friend who believes that your family should never fight you. This fences out all sorts of "brother against brother" story / situation scenarios , but he might be right. Which is better, the possibility of variety and intrigue, or something you can rely on in a dangerous game world?

This is always important in a hostile world, a safe harbour, and people always get attached to their safe spots in RPGS; I guess this would also apply to characters.

(Sorry for replying without reading after this specific post, but it got me itching to reply and I just had to do it :P )

Been playing Crusader Kings lately? :D (If not, you may want to look into that game, actually. It's very good in its own right, and might give you some ideas.)

Sword of the Samurai did this to some extent - the stats of your current character were conferred to his son once the parent got killed(and if you didn't have a child it was game over) But the son would always have lesser skills than the parent so you had to train him up again. It was more like having extra lives than anything else.

I think a "dynasty" approach is a good idea, since it can help switch the focus from the overused inner conflict/big bad villain paradigm. While the player will not emotionally attach himself to individual members of the family, the fact that they form a family opens up a lot of interesting possibilities.

I think the attachment could be heightened by inducing nostalgia

Different approaches are possible here. You could have the characters remember their ancestors and occasionally comment on them ("Do you remember when dad used to do this to traitors. HAHA ZAP !") or by passing down traits or fitting the characters traumas in the gameplay. Jack, for instance, might grow an incredible aversion to war since his father's castle was torched by raiders when he was young.

As for customization, I believe the most interesting approach would be to let the player customize the original and have the game modify its descendants depending on their heritage and the gameplay choices of the player.

I don't like the dynasty stats however. While this would work for the "public image" in certain settings, many children aren't like their parents at all.

In Rome: Total War it was very easy to grow attached to certain family members. Each person started off with their own unique traits. Inheritance played a role in this, but it wasn't precise. Then depending on how you played them they devoloped skills and traits over time. Leave them in your capital, they learn management skills. Use them to conquer France, they might get commander points.

I agree with the previous post that making things like genes and other things of that nature buyable might cheapen the game. I know if I was playing and in it for the long haul, that's where all my money would go. Just for the chance to have some Alexander the Great style heir who would dominate all.

The idea that descendants reference things that previous family members did would be a great touch, and could liven up gameplay.

Adding to my previous post, there's this excellent pen-and-paper game called The Riddle of Steel that you could get some ideas from.

In this game, each character has a set of Spiritual Attributes. They're tied to the character's backstory and may change as he plays out. The SA are a list of motivations that drive the character (always for a reason), and a bonus associated with each one.

Examples are people they hate (giving them an advantage over the enemy), things they fear (actually taking advantage away from them in these situations), and the ideals they strive to defend (giving them an advantage whenever someone or something is on the opposing side).


As you can see, almost all of these situations are because of things that happened to the character's family. So you could give the player an advantage whenever he's playing according to his family's backstory. It worked very well in this game, so you might consider something along these lines too :)


Just in case you want to check out their Spiritual Attributes system, here's a link. Although it's a bit lenghty, the second part covers just about everything, and why it's so good.
http://www.theriddleofsteel.net/whatis/SA.htm

Gah! I'm annoyed I didn't get to follow this thread, but apologies for not responding to those who took the time to write. If you're still following this...

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Original post by Kest I think that family would really stick together in a world where you can trust no one else. If I were you, I would choose to make family members unimaginably loyal, even to their death. There should be plenty of outside help to perform the back-stabbing and such.

*sigh* Seems I won't be able to do the electronic version of Hamlet in space. [lol] What about some of the family ALWAYS being loyal (like the immediate family or a favored son)? I don't know if it's possible, but I'm trying to work in some of those dramatic family situations out of myth and ancient stories because it would create an epic and legendary family history. With an ultraloyal family, for instance, a Star Wars Vader/Luke/Leia scenario is impossible.

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Quote: Nurture As Missions / Contests? There's a danger of this sort of thing getting cumbersome or weird (like Princess Maker). What should happen, for instance, if you leave your child to die or be captured by hostiles? Do you mean to train them? Or just because the player wanted to see what would happen? Child death should be hidden. At least until about the age of 15. Probably just make the child vanish and never spoke of again. Normal players will be alarmed enough knowing that they were responsible.

Will they? Do you think the child (as a symbol) is important enough to invoke this kind of response in most players, or do you think extra dramatic reflection needs to be thrown in (a grieving mother and avenging brother, for instance). Most players (in my experience) don't care about characters unless those characters create some effect or have some impact.

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If you mean to train, it depends on where you want to take it. In the Dragon Ball Z series, Goku left his son on a prehistoric island for a year to make him stronger. Of course, they were super freaks. But I think it's the same idea. There should be danger to such an action. But depending on his age and abilities, maybe there would be a time where the player would know that his game son will make it back alive, and with more skills. Or maybe the player should be put in control of the child during these types of training excersises.

Weird, never thought of this one!

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Original post by TechnoGoth What about dynasty points?

I like this on its own just for simplicity, but for some reason I'm really not comfortable with it for what I'm going for. Not exactly sure why, other than it just feels impersonal.

What about taking the exact same thing and masking it, instead making it a factor in everything from loyalty to influence over others. As you rack up these points, you don't see them, but you do see things like "family name" being used as a reason for why the owners of a sacred land will allow you to purchase one of the estates there as an ancestral home. Or, because of your father, grandfather and great grandfather's sacrifices for the empire, the empire lifts the normal limit of ships for you, allowing you to operate with a fleet (provided you help quell a growing rebellion, for instance).

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Dynasty points are then spent between lifetimes or chapters to upgrade the dynasty or clan. There could be a number off different types of things they can purchases such as:

If the upgrading is a bit more masked, I think it would be cool to both level up and level out. Would this work, for instance: Because you keep level up your masked dynasty points, you now get an opportunity to either take a prestigious post as ambassador with an alien race or appoint a member of your clan. If you appoint a clan member, they're much more solicitous when you need help.

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Different levels of home would open up purchase options for instance maybe you can purchase a fleet until you family owns a clan hall. Relics would be rare devices or relics that provide benefits to the clan. So, for instance the outsider statue reduces the chances of ship encountering a cosmic storm by 25%. While the protector fruit tree allows family members to increase their lifespan significantly by becoming a protector when they come of age.

Haha, interdependencies are an excellent idea, and can really shape strategy. I really like that idea, and as the game world expands into alien worlds, you could have some REALLY weird relics, including those that are semi-intelligent, or act as triggers for events, or are even cursed.

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The one thing you should consider though is how the new characters will start. I remember playing one game recently where you bought business and trained in guilds I forget what it was called. But it was very annoying because it took time to move of the political ladder and my character would always die just after being elected to a state office and then when I started playing as my decedent I would have start over from scratch again with no political office of any kind.

This exact situation has been the bain of my existence for the past few days, but I think you've given me an out.

First of all, in your example, once you got up the political ladder, how long did the gameplay last? I would think there needs to be a decent week at least. After that, what about this idea:

Because you're now the son of a famous politician, all his old political allies come out to help you (more so the better your fortunes). Say as the father you started simply running errands, performing intelligence and playing eavesdropper and bagman. Your son doesn't have to do that. Instead, you start him in a higher office. If successful throughout your career, each child starts higher and higher, such that one day all you have to do is user your daddy's money to be governor and then president (*ahem* art imitating life [lol])

The point is, there needs to be some kind of "paraleveling" that doesn't directly apply to your character, but rather impacts your character's opportunities. In theory, you should get a longer and longer time span at the highest level (a US President at 35, for instance, has more vitality and charm than a US President at 65)