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"Tookie" executed.

Started by ktuluorion Dec 13, 2005 at 11:30 AM 194 replies 19.7k views

Original Post

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:30 AM

You know, I have to say, reading this story made me sick. What really bothers me about the death penalty is that it is amazingly hypocritical and useless. Personally, I value life. I'm not religious, but I still do not see ANY reason to take a life. The way that I view it is that the threat of any future violence by the person in question is neutralized by them being in jail. Why is state-sponsored murder necessary? If life is sacred enough to make murder a crime, then why is state-sponsored murder ok? Why does revenge make it ok to take a life? How deranged is it to cold-bloodedly be able to stick a needle into the arm of an imprisoned person and have some fluid end his life? It really makes me sick that a human being, a so called "righteous" human being, could commit murder because it is "legal." Honestly, I find proponents of the death penalty to be as sick as regular murderers. It has been shown that the death penalty does not deter crime. It has been shown that the system is heavily flawed (i've seen statistics of around 1/5 of executed people turn out to be innocent). Basically, it is revenge, pure and simple. I don't see it as being any different then having someone commit a crime, and some hillbilly picking up a shotgun and going after the guy. It really amazes me that people can be so insensitive. This is a LIFE. One that doesn't need to be taken, and really the act does no good to anyone. Is it really a problem to let him rot in jail, and write anti-gang literature for children? Every time I see in the news that someone is put to death, and read the gory details, it really makes me sick. It really irks me that so many people are deranged enough to support this. It reminds me of that practice where exotic animals are caged up and shipped to rich people, then drugged up and let loose for the rich person to shoot them and claim them as a trophy. Good job, you've killed a caged lion. Congratulations. /rant

Puzzler183

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:36 AM

I'm fine with keeping them in jail, provided of course you personally are willing to pay the millions of dollars it costs for his food, clothes, the guards to watch him, his medical costs, etc.

And could we keep the stupid phrases like "state sponsored murder" to a minimum, they make your argument less credible by showing just how biased you are.

the_dannobot

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:36 AM

Quote:
Original post by ktuluorion
It has been shown that the death penalty does not deter crime.

Sure it does. You'll never see the same guy in the chair twice.

jakem3s90

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:37 AM

Quote:
Original post by the_dannobot
Quote:
Original post by ktuluorion
It has been shown that the death penalty does not deter crime.

Sure it does. You'll never see the same guy in the chair twice.

I hate posting in the Lounge, but I really did laugh out loud at my desk at work. That was great.

necreia

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:39 AM

It's also a matter of threat, the fear of death will deter some people from commiting such crimes (less about 'revenge').

When someone is in jail for the rest of their life, they "are" dead... just a lot more expensive, and still a threat.

I feel that only few few crimes should quantify death, but the looser the punishment, the less the deterrance.

ktuluorion

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:41 AM

Quote:
Original post by Puzzler183
I'm fine with keeping them in jail, provided of course you personally are willing to pay the millions of dollars it costs for his food, clothes, the guards to watch him, his medical costs, etc.

And could we keep the stupid phrases like "state sponsored murder" to a minimum, they make your argument less credible by showing just how biased you are.

Millions of dollars? And yes, I would rather pay to have then have them executed. Basically, the argument there is that money is more important than life. If that is the case, then it's ok for me to go rob a bank and kill the teller because I want/need more money. Just because a person has committed crimes (or has been incorrectly convicted of crimes) does not mean that they suddenly become worthless.

State-sponsored murder is exactly what it is. The state says it is ok, and the people are murdered. Yes, it is strong, but that is most likely why so many people are ok with it. They like to shield it with weak words. There is actually some individual who picks up a needle and sticks it into another human being, knowing that it will kill him. Murder.

nes8bit

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:43 AM

Quote:
Original post by ktuluorion
It really amazes me that people can be so insensitive. This is a LIFE. One that doesn't need to be taken, and really the act does no good to anyone. Is it really a problem to let him rot in jail, and write anti-gang literature for children?

Yeah it is a big problem. A big tax problem. Its cheaper to kill someone than to sustain them in prison. Its not like this is the reason that they do it, but you know...I just wanted to make your point invalid.

ktuluorion

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:43 AM

Quote:
Original post by the_dannobot
Quote:
Original post by ktuluorion
It has been shown that the death penalty does not deter crime.

Sure it does. You'll never see the same guy in the chair twice.

I mean before the crime is committed. Basically, if someone is going to commit a murder, they would do it whether the death penalty exists or not.

Life in prison keeps the person who committed a crime away from the rest of society just as well as execution.
It's really not hard to just let these people live out their lives as best as can be done in jail.

Eelco

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:43 AM

no, i dont see the point of the deathpenalty either. it serves no purpose at all, except for statisfying the urge for revence some people have. not a particularly great thing to base your laws on.

Quote:
Original post by Puzzler183
I'm fine with keeping them in jail, provided of course you personally are willing to pay the millions of dollars it costs for his food, clothes, the guards to watch him, his medical costs, etc.

ive often heard the claim that killing them is more costly than putting them in jail, though i find it hard to believe.

either way, i think if there is one kind of drug the government should always provide for free to anybody, its cyanide. its not the main reason why i feel this way, but one positive sideeffect is that it would lower the amount of people imprisoned for life considerably.

Quote:

And could we keep the stupid phrases like "state sponsored murder" to a minimum, they make your argument less credible by showing just how biased you are.

how is it not 'state sponsored murder' then? thats precisely what it is.

Puzzler183

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:45 AM

The thing is, you aren't the only one paying, I'm paying to. And I don't want to pay. The problem is that at some point, money does become more valuable than life in a sense. There is a limit amount of money - it is a scarced resource. So at some point, it becomes better to spend it somewhere else such as healthcare for people who aren't killers: it saves more lives.

And I'm like 99% sure that the families of his victims (who had to live through the pain of being shot with a shotgun) are feeling a lot better with him dead (and he only had to live through a little needle prick).

ktuluorion

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:46 AM

Quote:
Original post by necreia
It's also a matter of threat, the fear of death will deter some people from commiting such crimes (less about 'revenge').

When someone is in jail for the rest of their life, they "are" dead... just a lot more expensive, and still a threat.

I feel that only few few crimes should quantify death, but the looser the punishment, the less the deterrance.

As I said, this has been shown to not be accurate. The death penalty does not deter crimes.

Also, the cost of execution is as much as life in prison.

Plus, as I said before, why is money suddenly more important than a LIFE. As a human being, you should value life. (in my opinion, of course)

I'm not looking to lecture anyone who supports the penalty. I know I probably won't change your mind. I think I honestly just needed to vent. I really find this whole practice to be disgusting. I just don't understand how the death penalty is any better than murder for other reasons. Everyone who kills has a reason to do it. Why is one reason better than others?

Puzzler183

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:48 AM

How is a simple potassium cyanide injection more costly than the thousdans of dollars a year to keep him in prison?

I do value life, but the thing is, there are better ways to spend the money that save more lives than keeping a murderer alive in prison.

ktuluorion

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:49 AM

Quote:
Original post by Puzzler183
The thing is, you aren't the only one paying, I'm paying to. And I don't want to pay. The problem is that at some point, money does become more valuable than life in a sense. There is a limit amount of money - it is a scarced resource. So at some point, it becomes better to spend it somewhere else such as healthcare for people who aren't killers: it saves more lives.

And I'm like 99% sure that the families of his victims (who had to live through the pain of being shot with a shotgun) are feeling a lot better with him dead (and he only had to live through a little needle prick).

You do realize that the cost of keeping every person (around 1000) that have been executed in the past 25 years or so alive would be like 5 cents to you, right? Is it really worth KILLING 1000 people to keep your nickel? What about the people that have been proven innocent after execution? Aren't those dozens of innocents worth spending a nickel over your lifetime?

Steven Hansen

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:49 AM

Feeling as you do about the death penalty, you have probably been taught how to manage your feelings of aggression so that you look for alternatives to violence when things aren't going your way. I like that. I long for a day when people learn to live and let live.

Unfortunately we have people murdering other people on a daily basis. If that happens between countries, they declare war on each other to obtain "justice" and stop the behavior. Is declaring war any less a vengeance/safety issue than terminating/incarcerating criminals?

Also, if you were the one whose family had been murdered , knowing that the legal system would try to rehabilitate the murderer, with the culprit in your sights - what keeps you from pulling the trigger yourself? At least you would get your revenge, and the legal system would take it easy on you - maybe even let you out of jail after a rehabilitation time period. Seems safer than running the risk that he might get out on a technicality too.

Just something to think about. Maybe "justice" in general is about people feeling that things are fair - and it is not fair to be deprived of life, liberty, or property - but inflicting the same loss against the perpetrator (jail, fines, and death penalty) seems to assauge our feelings of unfairness somewhat.

necreia

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:49 AM

Quote:
Original post by ktuluorion
As I said, this has been shown to not be accurate. The death penalty does not deter crimes.

Do you have sources to support that axiom?

Quote:

Plus, as I said before, why is money suddenly more important than a LIFE. As a human being, you should value life. (in my opinion, of course)

I totally agree that we should value life. As someone else send, spend X money to save Y non-killers with research / medicine IMO is way more important that using X money to keep 1 killer alive in a cell.

ktuluorion

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:51 AM

Quote:
Original post by Puzzler183
How is a simple potassium cyanide injection more costly than the thousdans of dollars a year to keep him in prison?

I do value life, but the thing is, there are better ways to spend the money that save more lives than keeping a murderer alive in prison.

Because it is a detailed process. Basically, the court costs and appeals process are expensive. Not to mention, inmates are typically on death row for years, so you are paying to keep them in jail anyway.

I would imagine the executioner makes a pretty penny for that job, as well, considering they pretty much have to kill someone in a pretty personal, up front way. I'd imagine it is pretty psychologically demanding, moreso than shooting someone in a war for example.

Puzzler183

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:52 AM

Ah, but the cost totals millions and millions of dollars. And those millions would be far better spent providing water to the 1.5 BILLION people without potable water for example. Or any number of other causese that would save far more than just 1000 MURDERERS (because althought there are innocents, most are guilty).

eedok

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:52 AM

Quote:
Original post by ktuluorion
Also, the cost of execution is as much as life in prison.

umm what?

A lethal injection that takes 3 minutes should cost way less than up to 25 years of prison food alone, not to take into consideration the other expenses.

PixolMaster

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:52 AM

Actually, it is cheaper to keep them in jail for life. Killing them isn't very expensive, really, but the litigation that leads up to it (appeals, red tape, etc) end up being far more expensive than the cost of life imprisonment.

"Florida calculated that each execution there costs some $3.18 million. If incarceration is estimated to cost $17000/year, a comparable statistic for life in prison of 40 years would be $680,000."
(The Geography of Execution... The Capital Punishment Quagmire in America, Keith Harries and Derral Cheatwood 1997 p.6)

"A 1991 study of the Texas criminal justice system estimated the cost of appealing capital murder at $2,316,655. In contrast, the cost of housing a prisoner in a Texas maximum security prison single cell for 40 years is estimated at $750,000." (Punishment and the Death Penalty, edited by Robert M. Baird and Stuart E. Rosenbaum 1995 p.109 )

"I don't want my tax dollars paying to keep criminals alive... unfortunately, it costs dramatically more to kill those same criminals. The typical death penalty conviction must go through several levels of appeal. All these appeals must be heard by the courts in virtually every case. Attorneys are paid dramatically more than prison guards. One prison guard is responsible for several prisoners, where one prisoner on death row typically employs several attorneys and legal staff for many years, all while still using your tax dollars in prison. Life sentences are rarely appealed. The typical life span in prison is about two dozen years, many of the most violent prisoners get murdered in prison, often as a prowess maneuver within the convict population."

-- Alex

Puzzler183

Dec 13, 2005 at 11:54 AM

The only reason execution is expensive is because of people who are so against it. It's like circular logic, it's absolutely ridiculous.

I'm sure if I killed your family, you'd want to see me die.

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