Why game designer is needed why dont programmer do it

Being able to program doesn't mean ou are a good designer. For many problems, a programmer who can just be a good little monkey and do what they're told is sufficient. A programmer who can be creative and think big in terms of gameplay and how to turn that into class diagrams etc is a lot rarer - prgramming is normally problem solving, not deciding what problems need to be solved!

Programming is not Design. Programmers need the ability to design, but thats more to help them understand what the designers hand over to them, and so they can plan code and document.

Programers used to be designers, all we ended up was useless titles like doom and duke nukem 3d, not the AAA titles of today :P.

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Being able to program doesn't mean ou are a good designer. For many problems, a programmer who can just be a good little monkey and do what they're told is sufficient. A programmer who can be creative and think big in terms of gameplay and how to turn that into class diagrams etc is a lot rarer - prgramming is normally problem solving, not deciding what problems need to be solved!

Why is it so hard, most of today's upcoming games are like clones of previous games and then why don't programmers learn designing so they can do design then start developing.

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Programers used to be designers, all we ended up was useless titles like doom and duke nukem 3d, not the AAA titles of today :P.

And what's up with today's AAA titles? Dungeon Siege 2, FEAR, Battlefield 2,Medal of Honour series, etc..
Come on, I think programmers can do that much. I don't see any *real* innovation here. They are just clones with better graphics and little better gameplay.

I really don't understand how you can even learn to program correctly unless you can design.

Because the best case scenario is that you'll end up with something like Doom 3 - which from a technical standpoint is a great game, but really could have used a game designer to make it more than just the same game from 10 years ago, but with much prettier graphics.

Think about it this way - why do movies have directors, rather than letting the camera men just make the whole film?

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Original post by Will F Because the best case scenario is that you'll end up with something like Doom 3 - which from a technical standpoint is a great game, but really could have used a game designer to make it more than just the same game from 10 years ago, but with much prettier graphics. Think about it this way - why do movies have directors, rather than letting the camera men just make the whole film?

It's just my personal thought but the reason why cameramen don't do directing is because they can't do it at once. Director examine at the scene and the cameraman record the scene. It would be time consuming to record and examine the recorded scene.

But when developing games, what you gotta do is planning then developing.
Why team with no designers will result a game with poor designing?
I believe there are some other quality games where programmers have done designing, especially 'indie' games.

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Original post by Eric kim Quote: Being able to program doesn't mean ou are a good designer. For many problems, a programmer who can just be a good little monkey and do what they're told is sufficient. A programmer who can be creative and think big in terms of gameplay and how to turn that into class diagrams etc is a lot rarer - prgramming is normally problem solving, not deciding what problems need to be solved! Why is it so hard, most of today's upcoming games are like clones of previous games and then why don't programmers learn designing so they can do design then start developing. Quote: Programers used to be designers, all we ended up was useless titles like doom and duke nukem 3d, not the AAA titles of today :P. And what's up with today's AAA titles? Dungeon Siege 2, FEAR, Battlefield 2,Medal of Honour series, etc.. Come on, I think programmers can do that much. I don't see any *real* innovation here. They are just clones with better graphics and little better gameplay.

Design is not about innovation! Innovation needs solid design but games that aren't innovative still need senior designer's on the project. Even if the game is a clone in an existing genre the design needs to be solid or it will be a crappy game.

The 3 fps's you listed took a lot of effort and man hours from their design teams. Alot of man hours went into to placing the enemies, placing the triggers and events that caused the actions to happen all magically at the right moment. Even if there has been heavy scripting/triggers since HL1 they still need to be their and it still takes a great designer to implement it correctly. A good designer can take the existing genre, existing tools, existing technology and bring out the best game play using what he has.

This is why you are still able to buy a different game from the same genre as another and find it that much more emersive. It's the work of a good designer.

If the best of my programming coworkers had twice the amount of time and were allowed to design the game then our game probaly wouldn't be half the game it is now.

To put it simply; The best designers do not create new game play that requires work that has never been done before. The best designers create new game play without creating any work.

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Original post by Eric kim It's just my personal thought but the reason why cameramen don't do directing is because they can't do it at once. Director examine at the scene and the cameraman record the scene. It would be time consuming to record and examine the recorded scene.

That's silly. A director has his eyes glued to the monitor for the entire take, just like the cameraman.

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But when developing games, what you gotta do is planning then developing. Why team with no designers will result a game with poor designing? I believe there are some other quality games where programmers have done designing, especially 'indie' games.

Because they don't tend to be very good at it. Period. The QA guys aren't doing anything at the beginning of the production cycle either, but they don't get to design the game, because that's not what they were hired to be good at. Show me a game with lasting, nuanced gameplay and I'll show you a designer whose main job is not programming.

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Original post by Sneftel]Because they don't tend to be very good at it. Period. The QA guys aren't doing anything at the beginning of the production cycle either, but they don't get to design the game, because that's not what they were hired to be good at. Show me a game with lasting, nuanced gameplay and I'll show you a designer whose main job is not programming.

100% with sneftel on this.

We should be clear what we mean by design... to some it is the guy who thinks up the idea of the game and what the game will be like to play. To others, design is making the UML diagrams - in the non-game sector I guess this would be termed an Analyst.

Programmers often progress to Analysts, but there is no reason why a programmer (or even an analyst [smile]) would be good at coming up with good, detailed game ideas. Of course some programmers do have this skill but if you're a programmer then programming should be your main skill - you shouldn't be sitting idle in the design phase of a game but programming on a different project. You wouldn't expect that programmers who could play the guitar would normally be drafted in to do the game music.
In theindie world of course, teams are very small so the lead programmer is often the designer since it's his vision he started programming. But then he will often be the producer, website designer and marketing guy as well.

Just my humble opinion but any programmer willing to throw himself into the chaotic world of GAME programming probably knows a thing or two about game design, and what makes a good game.

They might think they do. But if that's the case then why does even the indie & hobbiest world consist largely of clones? There's more freedom and innovation (see the IGF finalists) but still not a whole slew of original ideas.

By your logic, any journalist who enjoys reading can wite a good book, or anyone who can cook can be a chef.

Though I'd have to agree that even the indie world is filled with clones, the percentage must be much much lower... And I really think the only reason people make clones is for a learning tool.. People who are generally "pros" to the programming world create stuff like the Infinity Engine, Dawn of Fantasy, O.A.D, etc etc...

I think that you got your answer already.

There is hardly any business where there isn't quite clear hierarchy between people and everybody knows their responsabilities. With game making the problem seems to come from the indie phase of the game making where the programmers have quite much power over everything. This kind of thinking seems to follow when the production goes more professional. The truth is that a programmer is quite low in the hierarchy. In my thinking a programmer is quite same as a construction worker.

When the programs were simpler, it was obvious that there was no space for much of design since the computers limited quite many things, and the programmer could actually make that little design him/herself.

As an architectural designer (in construction business), I cannot go and tell the construction man what is the best way to do a particular job (his expertise), but I can tell what I want his work to look like (my expertise).

Don't take me wrong however, of course I have to know what is possible and what isn't and that requires understanding of working methods, physics etc.

Demus I think you are hitting the nail on the head..

But think of that construction worker who has an incredible interest in how things work, and what makes a good building...

That is what a game programmer is IMO, they aren't equivalent to your average construction worker, they have a passion for GAMES, not for just programming. Otherwise they wouldn't be in the field.

In indie development lots of the games are designed by programmers. Some aren't but lots are.

In non-indie development designers are more common for several reasons:
1. There are lots of really good programmers who aren't good at design. Some are but some are very bad - especially when it comes to presentation and interface design.
2. Modern games are data driven and built using design tools - this allows those who are good at design (but may not be coders) to take on design duties and leaves the programmers free to write code - as opposed to writing data.

I would also like to add that programming demands a lot of time on the details. debugging, coding takes a good chunk of time. There are some programmers who get lost in all the little details that make up a game.

The designer must be separated from the details to make a concrete solid program/game. Of course a designer who knows the details can function much better by understanding what the programmers face.

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Original post by Shamino Demus I think you are hitting the nail on the head.. But think of that construction worker who has an incredible interest in how things work, and what makes a good building... That is what a game programmer is IMO, they aren't equivalent to your average construction worker, they have a passion for GAMES, not for just programming. Otherwise they wouldn't be in the field.

Uh oh, nails hurt :) perhaps you have a point that game makers have a bit more passion for game making (but I wouldn't doubt the passion of the construction worker either, knowing quite many of them, the construction experts have passion for their field). I was talking about the position of a programmer in a business world more and less.

Anyway, programming seems to be for most of the people the (only) way to enter game making world. What is a better way to enter the game business than to show that you have made a game. It is perhaps harder to convince somebody with a stack of paper which contains a design, unless you have also a game showing the same design. And that requires programming skills unless you can persuade someone to make realise the design (for you to have the job) ...

Of course, the reason I am posting here in Gamedev is that I am a programmer/designer too :)

Cheers