NO wonder IT jobs arent being filled...

I disagree. The only things from that list that I haven't used myself (one time or another) are ASP, COM, CSDL and Avaya. ASP and COM wouldn't be that hard to pick up, and I have a feeling Avaya is just a VoIP-ish application.

Needless to say, I wouldn't expect that much to be on a "real" entry level job description (0-3 years). I've no experience with any 'industry' stuff though, so har. [/opinion]

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Original post by Mushu I disagree. The only things from that list that I haven't used myself (one time or another) are ASP, COM, CSDL and Avaya. ASP and COM wouldn't be that hard to pick up, and I have a feeling Avaya is just a VoIP-ish application. Needless to say, I wouldn't expect that much to be on a "real" entry level job description (0-3 years). I've no experience with any 'industry' stuff though, so har. [/opinion]

If they want a senior development guy that usually means at least 10+ years experience. they should spell out senior level guys because thats the only people that are going to know all these languages in a real software develeopment setting and not at home tinkering with it. by the way how many years of experience do you have?

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C++ XML Visual Basic SQL SDLC SQL Server Oracle HSQL .NET J2EE Java C# HTML CSS &#106avascript<br/>DHTML<br/>AJAX</b><br/>Documentation<br/>Unit Testing<br/>Use Cases<br/><!--QUOTE--></td></tr></table></blockquote><!--/QUOTE--><!--ENDQUOTE--><br/>That's pretty much everything I deal with on a daily basis on 1 year of experience.<br/><br/>And Avaya is just a company that does VoIP solutions for big companies. This is kind of weird that it's in the list, as it basically means "can use a phone".

I'm 22 and I meet every one of those requirements. Well, technically, anyways. I had a class where we used Oracle, I haven't used VB since VB5 (mostly did vb4, though), etc

They don't mention any of it has to be professional experience, nor do they require a degree (which I'm still working on).

The job sounds rather crappy if you actually use all those technologies, though. I'd hate to never have even 5 minutes to investigate anything before switching langauges and platforms and going from utility development in VB to ease your enterprise database application development using C++, then to make a web page to show off the new product using vbscript for ASP and &#106avascript on the client side, etc<br/><br/>It doesn't require for X years of experience in a technology less than X years old, so it's really not too bad as far as job listings go.

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Original post by OpenGL_Guru Quote: Original post by Mushu I disagree. The only things from that list that I haven't used myself (one time or another) are ASP, COM, CSDL and Avaya. ASP and COM wouldn't be that hard to pick up, and I have a feeling Avaya is just a VoIP-ish application. Needless to say, I wouldn't expect that much to be on a "real" entry level job description (0-3 years). I've no experience with any 'industry' stuff though, so har. [/opinion] If they want a senior development guy that usually means at least 10+ years experience. they should spell out senior level guys because thats the only people that are going to know all these languages in a real software develeopment setting and not at home tinkering with it. by the way how many years of experience do you have?

I didn't mean to imply that it could be for a senior position - I was just stating that it wasn't exactly an "entry level" (ie, no experience) job either.

As for my own experience - none. I'm still in school.

I also (strongly) disagree. This is called a systems analyst position. Yes, there are people with this skill set (I have it, in addition to a lot of other stuff that tends to come up. Even knowing your way around the underside of Access can prove invaluable on a job). 3 years with this skill set would be an intermediate position, not a senior one (unless the person had proved themselves especially competent, in which case they might be working in a senior position by their own doing). No, this is not entry level programming, and it isn't code monkey programming either: code monkeys get trained in one language, then blindly bash out stuff through route memorization and recall. Analysts get paid twice or more the salary of code monkeys for their ability to think and learn.

I'm guessing you are either a student, or have been confined to an odd job (game programming counts as odd) that didn't exercise these. [non-code monkey] Business programmers (who constitute the majority of programmers) do know many technologies/languages at a time (and are constantly learning more) and how to make them work together. We don't bash everything out by hand in C++ (a 3 month project would take 3 years following the "I have to invent it all in C++ myself" method), we use C++ or another base language as glue for components we can build faster, better and more compatible with neighboring programs with a higher level system.


Oh, and the "C Plus Plus" is probably because of some entry filter (lots of job sites or other automated HR databases will either eat or not properly index "++". A programmer analyst is paid to be able to recognize this kind of stuff)

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Original post by capn_midnight Quote: C++ XML Visual Basic SQL SDLC SQL Server Oracle HSQL .NET J2EE Java C# HTML CSS &#106avascript<br/>DHTML<br/>AJAX</b><br/>Documentation<br/>Unit Testing<br/>Use Cases<br/><!--QUOTE--></td></tr></table></blockquote><!--/QUOTE--><!--ENDQUOTE--><br/>That's pretty much everything I deal with on a daily basis on 1 year of experience.<br/><br/>And Avaya is just a company that does VoIP solutions for big companies. This is kind of weird that it's in the list, as it basically means "can use a phone".<!--QUOTE--></td></tr></table></blockquote><!--/QUOTE--><!--ENDQUOTE--><br/><br/><br/>whats the minimum base pay per year you would except?? and what job has you doing all that when thats at least for 3 or 4 people?? you are doing all that with just 1 year experience?..basically entry level?

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Original post by Michalson I'm guessing you are either a student, or have been confined to an odd job (game programming counts as odd) that didn't exercise these. [non-code monkey] Business programmers (who constitute the majority of programmers) do know many technologies/languages at a time (and are constantly learning more) and how to make them work together. We don't bash everything out by hand in C++ (a 3 month project would take 3 years following the "I have to invent it all in C++ myself" method), we use C++ or another base language as glue for components we can build faster, better and more compatible with neighboring programs with a higher level system.

no i am not a student and yes i have been doing a job for about 4 years now, C/C++/MFC and openGL on contract work. we also do HTML/CSS/XML and java but guess what.. they hired someone to do that, not make one person do all of it. Oracle is another position at the company. guess what.. they have an ORACLE/SQL guy that knows Oracle/SQL/DB. do i know all of these..yeah i KNOW them but am i proficient in all of them? heck no. i guess thats the difference. yeah i can code in most of those/get a book and learn it quickly/whatever but do i know it enough to hit the ground running on the first day without any supervision or training?? nope.

And to touch on the tough to get into IT industry/shortage of workers. It's actually both.

A few years back (well almost 10 now) ordinary people started realizing that "computer people" where making a lot of money. The result was that a large number of people, a good number of whom had never even turned on a computer before, signed up to take college and university computer courses. That lead to a sudden explosion in the number of code monkey level programmers on the market. With easy tools like Visual Basic and the whole IT bubble these code monkeys got swallowed up into companies. For the cost of one programmer you could hire two or more of these code monkeys.

Several things resulted because of this.

First, all the low level positions where filled. When the bubble burst the demand went down, leaving companies with few entry level jobs to fill, and many code monkeys to choose from.

Second, many of those never used a computer people turned into code monkeys in 1-3 years turned out to be incompetent programmers. Real programmers needed to be brought in to clean up the messes, while companies reacted by thinking they needed to raise all programmer requirements (10 years of Java in 1999) to avoid getting more people with a piece of paper but no actual competence.

What we're left with is a market that does need programmers, but mostly needs those of the programmer analyst or software engineer variety. What few entry positions are left are instantly filled by the mountains of discarded code monkeys with 1-2 years "experience". The two factors also result in HR requirements being quite high.

I know the free parking sounds a bit odd to people in smaller cities, but in DC that's a sweet bonus if you work in the Golden Triangle area or Georgetown.

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Original post by OpenGL_Guru Quote: Original post by capn_midnight Quote: C++ XML Visual Basic SQL SDLC SQL Server Oracle HSQL .NET J2EE Java C# HTML CSS &#106avascript<br/>DHTML<br/>AJAX</b><br/>Documentation<br/>Unit Testing<br/>Use Cases<br/><!--QUOTE--></td></tr></table></blockquote><!--/QUOTE--><!--ENDQUOTE--><br/>That's pretty much everything I deal with on a daily basis on 1 year of experience.<br/><br/>And Avaya is just a company that does VoIP solutions for big companies. This is kind of weird that it's in the list, as it basically means "can use a phone".<!--QUOTE--></td></tr></table></blockquote><!--/QUOTE--><!--ENDQUOTE--><br/>whats the minimum base pay per year you would except?? and what job has you doing all that when thats at least for 3 or 4 people?? you are doing all that with just 1 year experience?..basically entry level?<!--QUOTE--></td></tr></table></blockquote><!--/QUOTE--><!--ENDQUOTE--><br/>I develop web applications for a major GIS company. I'm working on two seperate projects right now, one of them is a large ASP.NET project for the military and other groups, and one is a small J2EE app for the department of transportation. I'm paid $20/hr, though in a month I get a $3/hr raise.<br/><br/>I routinely have to write all of my own SQL scripts, data access code, business logic, and GUI code. I periodically have to write some custom rendering code, where I generate some sort of map image from a COTS mapping service and then alter the image in-process.<br/><br/>One thing that makes me unique and makes my boss happy is the highly featured UIs that I build (using DHTML and AJAX) along with the level of documentation and testing that I do for all of my components.<br/><br/>On top of that, it's convenient to be proficient in administering the back-ends of all of it, so that I don't have to wait for someone else to get work done.<br/><br/>An ongoing task that I have is to stay abreast of new technologies and suggest new things that we can incorporate. One such technology was HSQL, an in-memory database that is handy for small data sets (like, ~30MB). It is extremely fast, benchmarks suggest 20 times faster than Oracle or SQL Server. And it's very easy to deploy, it's included as a JAR library and all configuration is done in code and script files that can be bundled with the application. For performance critical data it's proved to be a god-send, I can put the most important data in the HSQL database and it can have huge gains on performance.<br/><br/>SDLC is Software Development Life Cycle, it means knowing what to do besides just programming. It's mostly technical writing.<br/><br/>In your defense, my boss does consider me brilliant.

Let's see... Assuming they want 3 years of overall experience and an unspecified amount of experience for those technologies in the "Required experience column." If they want 3 years experience with each one of those, then you can scratch quite a few out.

Required Experience:
--------------------
C++ Got it.
XML Got it. How hard can it be, just read up on DTDs and learn how to close tags. XSLT's slightly more involved but still rather easy stuff.
Visual Basic Got it.
SQL Got it.
Software Development Life Cycle I know the SDLC. if they're referring to a specific product, then no.
VB Script Got it.

Required Skills
----------------
C Plus Plus <----- WTF?? Got it.
XML Got it.
Visual Basic Got it.
SQL Got it.
SDLC See above.
SQL Server I suck at administration, but I can do a "good enough job" for your average non-high-end DB.
Documentation Got it.
Preferred skills include: Visual Basic Script (unless it has changed a lot since a few years ago, COM, Com Plus, &#106avascript</b>, Oracle, <b>MS.Net</b>, VoIP (Voice Over IP), Avaya, <b>Unit Testing</b>, <b>Use Cases</b><br><br>Benefits/Perks<br>---------------<br>BlueCross BlueShield medical<br>VSP vision<br>Delta dental<br>Equal opportunity employer that offers competitive salaries and benefits in a casual, fast-paced work environment.<br><br>Application Requirements<br>--------------------------<br>Client requires Green Card or U.S. Citizenship for this position. [/quote]<br><br>... and I'm not out of school yet.</b>

Curious I am to see where I fare.

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Original post by capn_midnight C++ XML Visual Basic SQL SDLC SQL Server Oracle HSQL .NET J2EE Java C# Shouldn't be hard to pickup from C++, besides it is a managed language HTML CSS &#106avascript<br>DHTML --> If you can do this then it means you are a master of css,html and &#106avascript. Why include them all?<br><strike>AJAX</strike><br>Documentation<br><strike>Unit Testing</strike><br><strike>Use Cases</strike><br><!--QUOTE--></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE><!--/QUOTE--><!--ENDQUOTE--><br><br></td></tr></table></blockquote>

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Original post by Michalson And to touch on the tough to get into IT industry/shortage of workers. It's actually both. ... ... What we're left with is a market that does need programmers, but mostly needs those of the programmer analyst or software engineer variety. What few entry positions are left are instantly filled by the mountains of discarded code monkeys with 1-2 years "experience". The two factors also result in HR requirements being quite high.

thanks.. i understand all that and its ashame it has to be that way. i think if the HR & management would calm down just a bit on the requirements they would get more response and quality candidates but i personally just think that its ridiculous to expect any human being, no matter how much experience or knowledge, to not only be proficient at multiple languages and technologies at once, but to be able to implement all that by him/herself. Maybe thats what things have come to i guess huh?

So yeah i have been doing C++/OpenGL/MFC for about 4 years now but not much chance to do much else b/c like i said..for java they hired a java guy, for Oracle, they hired an Oracle/DB/SQL guy, for HTML/CSS/XML/Photoshop they hired a web guy. all that is not meant for one person even if someone was Superman. Ive been programming on my own in C# to keep me up to date and when its all said and done it all boils down to learning a slightly different syntax and some other C# language rules but thats it. I have a life, house, other things to do and dont have every waking moment to spend learning every facet of technology outside of the job if i want to keep myself sane. As a matter of fact when i get home i dont even want to touch the computer being that i have been programming all day but maybe you are expected to run yourself into the ground and know it all, unless of course like a few of you get lucky and get to do all of this at your job. When you said you had experience in all this i dont know if you mean you have experience or that you are proficient in it..meaning you know it know it.

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Original post by jfclavette Let's see... Assuming they want 3 years of overall experience and an unspecified amount of experience for those technologies in the "Required experience column." If they want 3 years experience with each one of those, then you can scratch quite a few out. Required Experience: -------------------- C++ Got it. XML Got it. How hard can it be, just read up on DTDs and learn how to close tags. XSLT's slightly more involved but still rather easy stuff. Visual Basic Got it. SQL Got it. Software Development Life Cycle I know the SDLC. if they're referring to a specific product, then no. VB Script Got it. Required Skills ---------------- C Plus Plus <----- WTF?? Got it. XML Got it. Visual Basic Got it. SQL Got it. SDLC See above. SQL Server I suck at administration, but I can do a "good enough job" for your average non-high-end DB. Documentation Got it. Preferred skills include: Visual Basic Script (unless it has changed a lot since a few years ago, COM, Com Plus, &#106avascript</b>, Oracle, <b>MS.Net</b>, VoIP (Voice Over IP), Avaya, <b>Unit Testing</b>, <b>Use Cases</b><br/><br/>Benefits/Perks<br/>---------------<br/>BlueCross BlueShield medical<br/>VSP vision<br/>Delta dental<br/>Equal opportunity employer that offers competitive salaries and benefits in a casual, fast-paced work environment.<br/><br/>Application Requirements<br/>--------------------------<br/>Client requires Green Card or U.S. Citizenship for this position. <!--QUOTE--></td></tr></table></blockquote><!--/QUOTE--><!--ENDQUOTE--><br/><br/>... and I'm not out of school yet.[/quote]<br/><br/>when i read that job ad it comes across as knowing everything on that list, meaning proficient not just some stuff you did in college, but full time.. but then again maybe i am wrong. if they want someone that knows a little about a lot of those then i could probably handle it, otherwise its a no brainer.

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Original post by OpenGL_Guru no i am not a student and yes i have been doing a job for about 4 years now, C/C++/MFC and openGL on contract work. we also do HTML/CSS/XML and java but guess what.. they hired someone to do that, not make one person do all of it. Oracle is another position at the company. guess what.. they have an ORACLE/SQL guy that knows Oracle/SQL/DB. do i know all of these..yeah i KNOW them but am i proficient in all of them? heck no. i guess thats the difference. yeah i can code in most of those/get a book and learn it quickly/whatever but do i know it enough to hit the ground running on the first day without any supervision or training?? nope.

I don't think anyone would expect someone in that position to hit the ground running on the first day without any supervision or training. Not all companies can afford to have someone specialized for every job they have, especially after paying for oracle [wink]. 99% of the job could be straight C++ or VB and the rest comes up when you have to modify or integrate with an existing system. It doesn't sound like they are looking for someone who is an expert in all fields, but a person who is capable of handling any of those technologies if they became an issue.

I would feel comfortable applying for that position even though I haven't used VB since highschool and I have no idea what SDLC is. I know I could learn it.

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Original post by dawidjoubert C# Shouldn't be hard to pickup from C++, besides it is a managed language

it's closer to Java than C++

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HTML CSS &#106avascript DHTML --> If you can do this then it means you are a master of css,html and &#106avascript. Why include them all?<br><!--QUOTE--></td></tr></table></BLOCKQUOTE><!--/QUOTE--><!--ENDQUOTE--><br>knowing HTML, CSS, and &#106avascript doesn't automatically mean you can develop good DHTML components. You also need to have a good grasp of DOM, as well as a good grasp of GUI widget development, as your clients are basically going to ask you to reimplement a ton of native-desktop &#115;tyle GUI widgets. At times I've written entire GUI backends in &#106avascript in order to accomodate certain features.</td></tr></table></blockquote>

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Original post by capn_midnight knowing HTML, CSS, and &#106avascript doesn't automatically mean you can develop good DHTML components. You also need to have a good grasp of DOM, as well as a good grasp of GUI widget development, as your clients are basically going to ask you to reimplement a ton of native-desktop style GUI widgets.<!--QUOTE--></td></tr></table></blockquote><!--/QUOTE--><!--ENDQUOTE--><br/><br/>Exactly. You can be an html/css expert and use java script on a semi-regular basis and still not have a clue what DOM is.

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Original post by tstrimp Quote: Original post by OpenGL_Guru no i am not a student and yes i have been doing a job for about 4 years now, C/C++/MFC and openGL on contract work. we also do HTML/CSS/XML and java but guess what.. they hired someone to do that, not make one person do all of it. Oracle is another position at the company. guess what.. they have an ORACLE/SQL guy that knows Oracle/SQL/DB. do i know all of these..yeah i KNOW them but am i proficient in all of them? heck no. i guess thats the difference. yeah i can code in most of those/get a book and learn it quickly/whatever but do i know it enough to hit the ground running on the first day without any supervision or training?? nope. I don't think anyone would expect someone in that position to hit the ground running on the first day without any supervision or training. Not all companies can afford to have someone specialized for every job they have, especially after paying for oracle [wink]. 99% of the job could be straight C++ or VB and the rest comes up when you have to modify or integrate with an existing system. It doesn't sound like they are looking for someone who is an expert in all fields, but a person who is capable of handling any of those technologies if they became an issue. I would feel comfortable applying for that position even though I haven't used VB since highschool and I have no idea what SDLC is. I know I could learn it.

I see what you are saying. I understand that some companies cant hire 10 different people but at the same time most people cannot or dont have time to specialize in every technology. IMO, reading that ad, it seems like everything under the required skills section is something that is required experience, meaning you have had full time on the job real-world development experience and not just something you did for 1 month and put it down. maybe i am assuming. I can see someone knowing C++ and VB but like i said before i dont know any serious C++ programmer that has any inkling of even touching Oracle/SQL. i took database in college and built some databases(i think Oracle 6) and i hated it..i couldnt wait to get out of that class. i got a B in it, it was a tough class but i hated it. Most of my collegues who wanted to also go into develeopment hated it to..but im sure there were a few poeple that loved it. I feel the same way about Ada...man i still dont know why i took that class..talk about boring. My point is is that people in general(maybe again i am wrong) find something that want to do in terms of development and they get really good at it b/c they enjoy doing it but they arent going to love everything and therefore take any initiative to learn everything. for instance like i said, C# is pretty easy to pick up..and i know some HTML and am teaching myself Flash on the side for building a nice little website. does that mean i want to do Flash with C++ and openGL?? no way, not full time.