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Price of copying a file

Started by capn_midnight Sep 14, 2006 at 11:17 AM 27 replies 4.9k views
Original Post
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
It's not free to copy a file, especially over a network. It may look free because you buy the necessary resources in bulk, and without any planning for their use, but ultimately the necessary resources to enable a file copy have a real cost. So, can we feasible calculate this cost (irregardless of the purpose)? What is involved? Let's have a little thought experiment. 1.) the storage space for the live copy, the one from which all copying is done 2.) the storage space for the backups, to ensure you never lose the file 3.) the computer that does the copying, as a fraction of the amount of time that the copy takes over the total lifespan of the computer 4.) the electricity to run the processor for the copy operation 5.) the bandwidth to send the copy to the destination 6.) the domain name so that users can find your file to copy Let's say this file that we are copying is large, like a Linux distro. The Debian ISOs weigh in at 5GB (5,008,271,360 bytes = 5GB as hard drives are measured). I guess the easiest way to tally this all up would be to add up the yearly costs of everything and divide by the total number of downloads possible in one year. 1.) Here is a 300GB HDD for about $100, so about $0.33/GB. That means our distro is taking up $1.67 of HDD space. 2.) Here is a 25pk of dual layer DVDs for about $41, so about $0.61 a disc. Single layer DVDs at 4.7GB aren't big enough to store our ISOs, so we need dual layer DVDs. If we are burning just our distro, we'll use up 1 entire disc, though reallistically we would backup the entire contents of our HDD on multiple discs, allowing us to use the storage space more economically. As a fraction of the disk, it's $0.36. 3.) I'm going to be arbitrary and say $500 for the computer, sans the hard drive, since I already calculated that price. I'm going to assume we upgrade every year. 4.) This one is difficult for me, can someone check it? Residential Electricity Prices: A Consumer's Guide says $0.0955/kWh for electricity in my area. Say our computer draws 300W, with 365.25 days a year and 24 hours a day, that's about 2600 kWh and $251.14. 5.) Monthly fee for a 1yr contract on a private T1 line is about $795 with a one time $500 setup fee. A total cost of $10040. At 1.544 Mbps, it will take about (5GB/file * 1000MB/GB * 8MB/Mb / 1.544Mbps = 25906s/file) about 26000 seconds to download our file with full bandwidth usage, or 7 hours, 11 minutes, 47 seconds. (wait, does that seem right?). With 31556736 seconds in a year (60s/m * 60m/h * 24h/d * 365.25d/y = 31556736s/y), that means we can send this file 1218 times in one year. We need this number later. 6.) GoDaddy charges about $9 for 1 year of domain registration, for .com, .net, or .org.. (zeros used to line everything up). 00001.67 00000.36 00500.00 00251.14 10040.00 (bandwidth is a hog!) 00009.00 ======== 10802.17 / 1218 downloads per year = $8.87 per download. Or, about $1.77/GB. Of course, we have to add in our inefficiencies. We can't count on 100% bandwidth usage, either the server goes down, or the network goes out, or people just aren't downloading. The server going down will help us with our electricity bill, but ultimately is dwarfed by the money lost on inneficient bandwidth usage. With bandwidth, time is literally money, $0.02 a minute, $1.15 an hour, $27.49 a day. With the server down, the network out, or people not downloading the file 24/7, I could watch a counter tick away the money I'm losing. Anyone want to play along and see if they can improve these numbers?
BBB
BBB
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
Monthly fee for a 1yr contract on a private T1 line is about $795 with a one time $500 setup fee


Ehhhh???? Are they offering 1.544 Mbps or 1.544 Gbps? And if it is 1.544 Gbps then you sure hell could download a 5GB file a bit more then 1218 times in a year...
So $500 in setup fee? For 1.544 Mbps? I get 6 times the speed for 0.05 times the money. Of course, I don't have a dedicated line, but I don't see the need for one if your going to download Linux distros.... (fact is, I don't see a need for one unless your connection is mission-critical). Surely you can get something cheaper?

Or come to think of it, you DO live in an underground Nazi bunker Midnight, and I guess tunneling through 2 kilometers of solid rock costs a bit :P .
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by BBB
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
Monthly fee for a 1yr contract on a private T1 line is about $795 with a one time $500 setup fee


Ehhhh???? Are they offering 1.544 Mbps or 1.544 Gbps? And if it is 1.544 Gbps then you sure hell could download a 5GB file a bit more then 1218 times in a year...
So $500 in setup fee? For 1.544 Mbps? I get 6 times the speed for 0.05 times the money. Of course, I don't have a dedicated line, but I don't see the need for one if your going to download Linux distros.... (fact is, I don't see a need for one unless your connection is mission-critical). Surely you can get something cheaper?

T1 is 1.544 Mbps. The price from that page might be a little high (this place isn't much cheaper, $400 on setup and $495/mo), it's kind of hard to find pricing on commercial broadband, they always want you to register so they can "send you a quote". If you don't like my results, run your own numbers. And linux distros is just an example of a large file for the sake of calculation. Maybe we're serving real time weather Radar imagery, maybe we're a software pirate giving away 3DSMax.
Quote:

Or come to think of it, you DO live in an underground Nazi bunker Midnight, and I guess tunneling through 2 kilometers of solid rock costs a bit :P .

Hey, they were on clearance, what can I say? And being underground saves you a ton on heating costs. The temperature never deviates much from about 64F, so I just wear a sweater.
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
Who knows, maybe 56K is the most efficient in terms of dollars per bytes a year, in which case one would employ a giant modem farm (of course, then you're starting to exponentially increase your electricity bill). We should make a list.

Here is a script to aid in that calculation.

[Edited by - capn_midnight on September 14, 2006 1:28:56 PM]
Ravuya
Ravuya
There's still room for the old geek adage that a station wagon filled with physical data is the fastest unit of bandwidth. [grin]

If we figure out how many DVD-9s we can fit in an average-sized station wagon (let's propose the Volvo V70 because it has an excellent manual transmission and looks sharp), the amount of fuel we'll need to run it down the highway, and possible maintenance budgets, I think we may find that per-gigabyte the station wagon is cheaper (even with the current price of oil).

The Ride


According to the Volvo website, it has 2022.0L of pure cargo room by SAE volume. That's 134 252.237 cubic inches for you Imperialist traitors.

I dunno if that involves the volume that the hu-man driving it would have to occupy and/or possible safety regulations regarding "oh shit I can't see out the window anymore" but I think we should be probably pretty safe assuming there's ~2000L of storage space in there.

Now, to figure out how many DVD-9s fit into a litre of storage space, although I suspect we may have better luck shipping 500GB hard drives in terms of data-per-square-inch. Someone will have to go back and re-do this calculation later with hard drives.

The vehicle holds 68L of fuel, and consumes 7.4 L/100km. So that means we'd have to stop for 10-minute fuel, dexedrine and pee breaks every 919km at highway speeds (I think, math might be spotty here as I don't have any paper).

Where I live, fuel costs 90.826 Canadian cents per litre, making it $62 per stop assuming we run the tank completely down at each stop.

Now I need to figure out a distance. Let's say we're going from the Seattle Space Needle to the Toronto CN Tower. According to Google maps, this is 2591 miles (4 169.8103 KM). This means I'll have to stop for a full re-fuel 4.54 times (I really think that 'fuel range' calculation is wrong), which will occupy an additional 45.4 minutes on top of my runtime of one day 20 hours, costing me $280.39CAD in fuel, assuming fuel is constant-price all over Canada and the US (which is probably unlikely).

Transport cost


Total time = 1d20h45m (161 100 seconds)
Total cost = $280.39 for fuel

Now to figure out how many discs I can carry. Obviously we're making some liberties with fuel efficiency, as a fully-loaded V70 will probably be less efficient stocked full of data.

Data cost


Price per disc = $2.50USD (2.80 CAD) for 8.5GB
Volume per disc = Roughly (120 mm) * (120 mm) * (0.6 mm) = 0.00864 L
Total number of discs in the station wagon = 2022 / 0.00864 = ~234 028 discs
Total storage per Volvo V70 Station Wagon = 1 989 229 GB
Total cost of all these discs = 234 028 * 2.80 = $655 278 CAD
Price per gigabyte = $655 278 / 1 989 229 = $0.32/GB

Final calculation


Transmission speed = 1 989 229 GB / 161 100 seconds = 12.35 GB/s
Disc + transport cost = 655 278 + 280.39 = $655 558.39 CAD
Price of this per gigabyte = $655 558.39 / 1989229 = $0.33CAD/GB = $0.29USD/GB

Wowzers. Looks like it's still cheaper to send 2.0PB to the CN Tower, as long as you don't factor in the price of the automobile itself ($39,495CAD as configured, bringing the total cost to $694 773 and thus the total price per gigabyte to $0.35CAD/GB or $0.31USD/GB, of course ignoring the price of caffeine). You could always sell the Volvo on the return trip, or change it out for a more voluminous vehicle such as a cargo trailer. I'd also be interested in seeing calculations regarding price per flash RAM, 500GB hard drive, and cargo ships.

[Edited by - Ravuya on September 14, 2006 2:42:24 PM]
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
Okay, 56Kbps upload (of course, you'll never get that on a phone line), for $20/mo with no installation fee:
$240/yr
220.9GB/yr or 0.22TB/yr
$1.09/GB or $1086.48/TB

The cheaper T1 link I found, $400 install, $495/mo, 1.544Mbps upload:
$6340/yr
6090.45GB/yr or 6.09TB/yr
$1.04/GB or $1040.97/TB

DSL, $69 install, $125/mo, 1Mbps upload:
$1569/yr
3944.59GB/yr or 3.94TB/yr
$0.4/GB or $397.76/TB (WOW!)
Ravuya
Ravuya
That was a surprisingly labour-intensive series of calculations.
tstrimp
tstrimp
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
Okay, 56Kbps upload (of course, you'll never get that on a phone line), for $20/mo with no installation fee:
$240/yr
220.9GB/yr or 0.22TB/yr
$1.09/GB or $1086.48/TB

The cheaper T1 link I found, $400 install, $495/mo, 1.544Mbps upload:
$6340/yr
6090.45GB/yr or 6.09TB/yr
$1.04/GB or $1040.97/TB

DSL, $69 install, $125/mo, 1Mbps upload:
$1569/yr
3944.59GB/yr or 3.94TB/yr
$0.4/GB or $397.76/TB (WOW!)


Expensive DSL. There is cable internet available in my area for $60/month with 1Mb/s upload speeds. $99 setup though.

@Ravuya: What are you paying the driver?
Ravuya
Ravuya
Quote:
Original post by tstrimp
@Ravuya: What are you paying the driver?

Good point. I had assumed I would be my own driver.

I also neglected potential volume discounts (buying a couple thousand DVD-9s at once would probably get me some sort of bulk discount), time to read/write the data into the target machines, and potential traffic illnesses.

I also neglected the price of traffic tickets: I assume Google Maps accurately measures time to get somewhere, but it's possible that it might over-estimate some speed limits on lesser known roads. Putting the hammer down in the V70 would probably net me a pretty substantial speeding fine, especially since it has AWD and I'd feel entitled to taking sharp corners at speed, which might lead to increased downtime and potential loss of data in an enormous fireball.

However, CM's calculation also doesn't involve potential traffic congestion on the Internet, so both of our models are flawed in the details.
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by tstrimp
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
Okay, 56Kbps upload (of course, you'll never get that on a phone line), for $20/mo with no installation fee:
$240/yr
220.9GB/yr or 0.22TB/yr
$1.09/GB or $1086.48/TB

The cheaper T1 link I found, $400 install, $495/mo, 1.544Mbps upload:
$6340/yr
6090.45GB/yr or 6.09TB/yr
$1.04/GB or $1040.97/TB

DSL, $69 install, $125/mo, 1Mbps upload:
$1569/yr
3944.59GB/yr or 3.94TB/yr
$0.4/GB or $397.76/TB (WOW!)


Expensive DSL. There is cable internet available in my area for $60/month with 1Mb/s upload speeds. $99 setup though.

$819/yr
3944.59GB/yr or 3.94TB/yr
$0.21/GB or $207.63/TB
that comes out to about half the price of DSL.

Here is a page with people discussing prices for OC-3. OC-3 is 155.52Mbps, and the people on the page are saying it is in the range of $11,500/month with no mention of setup costs. It looks like so far that setup costs for other broadband services are about 1 months worth of fees, so I'll use that.
$149500/yr
613462.95GB/yr or 613.46TB/yr
$0.24/GB or $243.7/TB

Wow, talk about savings over T1.
Ravuya
Ravuya
I've just been alerted to another flaw in my reasoning: If you assume each disc to be 15 grams, then the total mass of the discs in the V70 is roughly 3.87 short tons (according to Google).

A V70 is unlikely to take this amount of mass lying down. Well, it will be lying down. In pieces.

We'll probably have to change to a truck of some sort, which changes my analysis significantly.
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by Ravuya
However, CM's calculation also doesn't involve potential traffic congestion on the Internet, so both of our models are flawed in the details.

very true, but I did mention that inefficient use of bandwidth made matters much more costly. At the very least, this gives us a means of comparison between broadband providers. It's interesting to see at least.

And it also points out a fallacy in one media pirate argument: that media shouldn't be considered the same as physical products since digital replication makes an infinitely large source of product for a finite demand. I have at least proven that digital replication is actually somewhat "expensive" in that regard. Not only is the media producer out the potential sale, but the media provider is out the cost of bandwidth.
necreia
necreia
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by Ravuya
However, CM's calculation also doesn't involve potential traffic congestion on the Internet, so both of our models are flawed in the details.

very true, but I did mention that inefficient use of bandwidth made matters much more costly. At the very least, this gives us a means of comparison between broadband providers. It's interesting to see at least.

And it also points out a fallacy in one media pirate argument: that media shouldn't be considered the same as physical products since digital replication makes an infinitely large source of product for a finite demand. I have at least proven that digital replication is actually somewhat "expensive" in that regard. Not only is the media producer out the potential sale, but the media provider is out the cost of bandwidth.


This also goes against the spammers defense of 'it costs you nothing, so just delete it'. Given the nature of spam emails, their contents, and volume, it would be correct to say that spam costs many people lots of money.
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
I propose that the nice, round number of "$1.00US/GB" be used as the thumbnail value of bandwidth at current market prices. Given the wide range of broadband prices, coupled with inefficient use of those bandwidth resources, I think $1 is a reasonable number for use in discussions. At the very least it's not a full magnitude off.
ranakor
ranakor
keep in mind there may be cheaper alternatives elsewhere (so moving your business drops the price wayyy down)

example france with my isp

20mb/sec (16 real) 30/month
20*60*60*24*365=504576000mbit=63072000mbyte/year= 61590GBYTE/year aprox for 30*12 (no setup cost) = 360€

this puts you at 0.005€/gbyte

edit: didn't read well & your thread seems very upload centric so makes that time 10 (i'm only getting 2mb up i think) that's still 0.05/gb (wich is a whole lot less than 1/gb)
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by ranakor
keep in mind there may be cheaper alternatives elsewhere (so moving your business drops the price wayyy down)

example france with my isp

20mb/sec (16 real) 30/month
20*60*60*24*365=504576000mbit=63072000mbyte/year= 61590GBYTE/year aprox for 30*12 (no setup cost) = 360€

this puts you at 0.005€/gbyte

edit: didn't read well & your thread seems very upload centric so makes that time 10 (i'm only getting 2mb up i think) that's still 0.05/gb (wich is a whole lot less than 1/gb)

It's upload-centric because we are calculating the cost of replicating a file. Where it goes after it is replicated is of no concern to the file replicator.

Still, at ~$60.00US/TB, how is it possibly that cheap? I expect there are large government subsidies, which means the true cost that you pay for your bandwidth is hidden in a sea of taxation.
ranakor
ranakor
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by ranakor
keep in mind there may be cheaper alternatives elsewhere (so moving your business drops the price wayyy down)

example france with my isp

20mb/sec (16 real) 30/month
20*60*60*24*365=504576000mbit=63072000mbyte/year= 61590GBYTE/year aprox for 30*12 (no setup cost) = 360€

this puts you at 0.005€/gbyte

edit: didn't read well & your thread seems very upload centric so makes that time 10 (i'm only getting 2mb up i think) that's still 0.05/gb (wich is a whole lot less than 1/gb)

It's upload-centric because we are calculating the cost of replicating a file. Where it goes after it is replicated is of no concern to the file replicator.

Still, at ~$60.00US/TB, how is it possibly that cheap? I expect there are large government subsidies, which means the true cost that you pay for your bandwidth is hidden in a sea of taxation.


no it's just usa costs wich happen to be way high (it's not just france pretty much all of europe & japan has much better offering than the us) i'm not sure why but the US seems to just suck real bad at offering internet
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by ranakor
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
Still, at ~$60.00US/TB, how is it possibly that cheap? I expect there are large government subsidies, which means the true cost that you pay for your bandwidth is hidden in a sea of taxation.


no it's just usa costs wich happen to be way high (it's not just france pretty much all of europe & japan has much better offering than the us) i'm not sure why but the US seems to just suck real bad at offering internet

"It just costs more because US companies suck" is not a good explaination. This article proffers a few ideas. European countries have been subsidising broadbrand providers when America has not (the issue wasn't even raised here until just a couple of months ago when America was ranked 12th in world-wide broadband penetration). America has a significantly larger area of land to cover and mileage is an important factor in broadband costs. With web accelerators and low monthly pricing (as low as $9US/mo), 56k access is still an economically viable choice for many Americans (perhaps as low as $0.30US/GB). Really, I think the answers are quite obvious: non-broadband still hangs on, large countries are fundamentally more expensive to cover, and the EU has been hiding the true cost of development.
civguy
civguy
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
Still, at ~$60.00US/TB, how is it possibly that cheap?
The cost is paid by the users who use only a tiny fraction of the bandwidth available (which is probably >99% of them). Also, I think most ISPs have some rules on what the connection can be used for.. If they saw you using full bandwidth 24/7, it's probable your connection would be cut off.
frob
frob
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
5.) Monthly fee for a 1yr contract on a private T1 line is about $795 with a one time $500 setup fee. A total cost of $10040. At 1.544 Mbps, it will take about (5GB/file * 1000MB/GB * 8MB/Mb / 1.544Mbps = 25906s/file) about 26000 seconds to download our file with full bandwidth usage, or 7 hours, 11 minutes, 47 seconds. (wait, does that seem right?). With 31556736 seconds in a year (60s/m * 60m/h * 24h/d * 365.25d/y = 31556736s/y), that means we can send this file 1218 times in one year. We need this number later.


Yes it seems right for those numbers, but people distributing files like that don't do it on a server over a single T1 line.

They know better.

A T1 is relatively slow. A single DSL modem download can saturate the T1 line's outbound, and fill up half (or more) of it's inbound.

T1/DS1 lines are great for many commercial buildings because of how easily they can be run through a MUX or PBX, and can serve up light traffic all the time. But for that kind of relatively heavy traffic, if your line is in 100% use transferring the file, you'll have a hard time doing other things, like serving up the web pages or other information.


If you are serving out that much data, you'd go with a colocation solution.

Just glancing at XMission (a local big ISP), it currently has about 1.5Tbps total bandwidth to the Internet. With a single colo box you can have a 100 Mbps burstable rate, basically an direct ethernet connection to their border routers. So each transfer takes at around 7 seconds if you are fortunate enough to have an extremely fast connection on your own end. That's much faster than your 7 hour T1 transfer. Shopping around for a colo solution you sould easily find some place that around 1TB/month or more for the same $900/month.

That works out to be about six and a half downloads per day for that cost, or about 200 downloads per month instead of the 100 downloads per month.

That takes it to about $4.50 per download, or just under a buck per GB.

You can buy additional bandwidth at roughly the same cost, better or worse if you shop around.

And yes, bandwidth is the real killer.

That's why so many ISPs and mirrors rejoiced about BitTorrent for distros and other large files. Sharing it with all the dark cable (the unused T1, DSL, and other bandwidth) helps spred the cost around with only a small additional impact on the infrastructure.

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