this could get messy!

heh, I just finished reading it when I saw your post. Did you got the article from Firfox-LastestHeadlines link? :)

The catholic church is following a policy of disclosing the historical background of the Islam and Muhammad to the public oppinion, which happens to ingore everything about it/him.

I don't give a shit about how violent can the muslims react before criticism. They should learn to live with it.

The public shock at this kind of thing really annoys me. This is exactly how a pope should behave. According to Christians, Muslims are devil worshippers. You can't have the leader of the catholic church going around saying that other religions are all OK.

"the Pope quoted a 14th Century Christian emperor who said Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things."

"The Vatican said the Pope had not intended to offend Muslims."

Hypocrisy at its best.

Quote:

Original post by dagarach You can't have the leader of the catholic church going around saying that other religions are all OK.

Unfortunately, it's already happened with the previous pope I believe.

Quote:

Original post by cloudscapes "the Pope quoted a 14th Century Christian emperor who said Muhammad had brought the world only "evil and inhuman" things." "The Vatican said the Pope had not intended to offend Muslims." Hypocrisy at its best.

lack of context at its best. why doesnt any news outlet mention the context? for all i know he was decrying the man he was quoting.

transcript

Quote:

... In the seventh conversation ("diálesis" -- controversy) edited by professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the jihad (holy war). The emperor must have known that sura 2:256 reads: "There is no compulsion in religion." It is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under [threat]. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Koran, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the "Book" and the "infidels," he turns to his interlocutor somewhat brusquely with the central question on the relationship between religion and violence in general, in these words: "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God is not pleased by blood, and not acting reasonably ("syn logo") is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats.... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...." The decisive statement in this argument against violent conversion is this: Not to act in accordance with reason is contrary to God's nature. The editor, Theodore Khoury, observes: For the emperor, as a Byzantine shaped by Greek philosophy, this statement is self-evident. But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality. Here Khoury quotes a work of the noted French Islamist R. Arnaldez, who points out that Ibn Hazn went so far as to state that God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us. Were it God's will, we would even have to practice idolatry. ...

Quote:

Original post by Machaira Quote: Original post by dagarach You can't have the leader of the catholic church going around saying that other religions are all OK. Unfortunately, it's already happened with the previous pope I believe.

Unfortunately?!


Oh that's right, like all ignorant intolerant religious people, you believe that your personal imaginary friend is the only thing out there and that everyone else who believes in anything else will live an eternity in hell, being punished for believing in a different imaginary friend.


God gave you a brain. Use it.

Quote:

Original post by Mithrandir Unfortunately?! Oh that's right, like all ignorant intolerant religious people, you believe that your personal imaginary friend is the only thing out there and that everyone else who believes in anything else will live an eternity in hell, being punished for believing in a different imaginary friend.

It is unfortunate. When leaders of intolerant religions indulge in the mummery of the rhetoric of tolerance, it makes their religion seem more acceptable to the masses. It is a brainwashing tactic.

Quote:

Original post by Diodor transcript ...

yeah, that really seems like something to riot over...

Quote:

Original post by dagarach Quote: Original post by Mithrandir Unfortunately?! Oh that's right, like all ignorant intolerant religious people, you believe that your personal imaginary friend is the only thing out there and that everyone else who believes in anything else will live an eternity in hell, being punished for believing in a different imaginary friend. It is unfortunate. When leaders of intolerant religions indulge in the mummery of the rhetoric of tolerance, it makes their religion seem more acceptable to the masses. It is a brainwashing tactic.

Are they not acceptable?


All the Pope is saying, "Hey you people, stop using violence in the name of religion." What's so bad about it?

Quote:

... The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God is not pleased by blood, and not acting reasonably ("syn logo") is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats.... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...."

A noble sentiment from the religion that brought us the Inquisition...

I'm with Eelco on this one. It's stupid to get riled up over some out-of-context comments.

I actually knew someone would start this topic here the minute I saw the article on Google News. Maybe it's relevant to you people because the Pope is recognized as a world leader with a large following. However, it's still interesting that when Muslim clerics call for jihad, or issue fatwahs condemning Westerners to death, or fatwahs permitting up to 10 million Americans to be killed, etc., nobody seems to care. And ironically enough, it's their calls to arms that are actually being taken up! In recent years, the Catholic Church has done virtually nothing to agitate them; in fact, it has tried quite the opposite.

Christianity can be bashed without fear of one's life being taken in revenge. Perhaps some of you feel that we need to understand the Islamic world in order to solve our differences with them, and I agree, but that shouldn't come at the cost of freedom of speech. Just look at the ridiculous cartoon controversy. We can't be afraid to speak our minds on any issue for fear of offending people who disagree.

That was a rather poor choice of quotes. It was obviously not intended to imply that all Muslims are evil, but he definately could have trimmed that section down a little cleaner.

CM

Quote:

Original post by Riviera Kid haven't they seen star wars? someone photoshop it please, lol.

This is ridiculous. The pope, like pretty much everyone else in the Vatican, believes that muslims are heretics, idolators, at best doomed to eternal damnation and at worst capable of tempting others towards similar damnation. He is, moreover, dedicated to (among other things) the propagation of these beliefs. Did the Muslim Brotherhood really not know this until he specifically mentioned it?

Not sure where it came from, but I thought it looked pretty funny:

EDIT - pic removed. I don't want to offend anyone.

[Edited by - Moe on September 16, 2006 1:54:30 AM]

There are some people who just like burning pictures and flags on a regular basis. All they need is an excuse. No big deal.

Quote:

Original post by trzy I'm with Eelco on this one. It's stupid to get riled up over some out-of-context comments. I actually knew someone would start this topic here the minute I saw the article on Google News. Maybe it's relevant to you people because the Pope is recognized as a world leader with a large following. However, it's still interesting that when Muslim clerics call for jihad, or issue fatwahs condemning Westerners to death, or fatwahs permitting up to 10 million Americans to be killed, etc., nobody seems to care. And ironically enough, it's their calls to arms that are actually being taken up! In recent years, the Catholic Church has done virtually nothing to agitate them; in fact, it has tried quite the opposite. Christianity can be bashed without fear of one's life being taken in revenge. Perhaps some of you feel that we need to understand the Islamic world in order to solve our differences with them, and I agree, but that shouldn't come at the cost of freedom of speech. Just look at the ridiculous cartoon controversy. We can't be afraid to speak our minds on any issue for fear of offending people who disagree.

I agree and disagree. I agree that it's stupid to get riled up over these comments. I disagree with juxtaposing the Pope with radical Muslim clerics. Islam is not a centrally organized religion like Catholicism (and Christianity in general). The Pope speaks for all Catholics, around a billion people. Some radical Muslim cleric from the hinterlands only speaks for his followers, maybe 1,000 people. That is why nobody cares when they say stupid things. It would be like getting upset because of the stupid things said by some junior priest from some backwater parish. This report mentions the supposed fatwa permitting the deaths of 10 million Americans: Amanpour: Bin Laden still deadly relevant.

Quote:

... Michael Scheuer, who once headed the CIA's bin Laden unit, says bin Laden has been given permission by a young cleric in Saudi Arabia authorizing al Qaeda to "use nuclear weapons against the United States ... capping the casualties at 10 million." "He's had an approval, a religious approval for 10 million deaths?" I asked him. "Yes," Scheuer responded. ...

Even the Bin Laden expert doesn't know the name of this "young cleric in Saudi Arabia". Few people in the West care about this because by and large nobody believes it makes a difference either way. Most everybody thinks Bin Laden is a killer and the permissions of some junior cleric aren't going to change that. What people should care about is whether the more moderate clerics spoke out against that permission. Christianity can be bashed without fear today, but that wasn't always the case. It took centuries to get there.

Quote:

Original post by mattnewport Quote: ... The emperor goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. "God is not pleased by blood, and not acting reasonably ("syn logo") is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats.... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death...." A noble sentiment from the religion that brought us the Inquisition...

It easy to miss the point here. The New Testament doesn't tell people to convert others by the use of the sword and to kill the infidels, as the Quoran does.