[java] Sharp Java

I think I should direct you to this thread as it will answer most of your questions.

But! Seeing that all .NET languages compile to the same bytecode (correct if wrong) and Java and C# are very similar in function and code, maybe you might wanna to code in J#?

Quote:

Original post by eSam I have good experience in Java, but never in C#. However some guys in the computer programming domain suggest that I'd better switch to C# as it's more capable in terms of library,

I don't know where they get that from. Java's standard API has had over a decade of development and testing. Some Java programmers even complain that it's too bloated because of all of the features it includes. I've never heard anyone complain that it's not capable.

Quote:

more widespread and demanded by enterprise companies

That statement is false. Java is firmly entrenched in the enterprise world. C# is the newcomer there, but it is not even close to being more widespread. I have no numbers to back this up, but if you look through enterprise-related job announcements you'll get the real picture. C#'s strength is in the desktop market where Java has never really caught hold.

Quote:

and it's fast and sometimes it runs faster than native code, because optimization occurs at run time where the CRL can optimize for the machine the program is running on.

The same can be said for Java. The Sun distribution contains the HotSpot virtual machine, which compiles bytecode to optimized native code at run time. HotSpot has had several iterations and has improved with each release.

Quote:

if it's then can we assume that Java is nnear it's end.

Not even close.

Quote:

And by the way any real commercial application has ever been written in either Java or C#? I think both langs are for Academic use only or inside a lab.

Thousands of commercial applications have been written with both languages in many different domains.

Aldacron said it all, so I'll just second his post.
Guys... it's time you get rid of that FUD about Java!

Thanks!

After reading your posts, following up the suggested links, and researching other resources, I came to a conclusion that C# is only an attempt to relplace or at least to gain attention as an MS propretary language. .NET as I understand can be served by any language that has a .NET compiler, and for the best of all there's managed C++.

Java's well formed syntax, and high portability make it a language of choice and for both enterprise and desktop, what can be better than Limewire? I wished that GoogleEarth was written in Java.

C# only resembles Java, and adds more complication and malformation to the structure so that it fits the .NET intermediate code or whatever, ...

Both Java and C# are alive and kicking (though not necessarily in exactly the same markets) and both are basically mandatory skills in today's world.

Quote:

Original post by eSam After reading your posts, following up the suggested links, and researching other resources, I came to a conclusion that C# is only an attempt to relplace or at least to gain attention as an MS propretary language.

C# is an ECMA and ISO standard. It's substantially less proprietary than Java.

Quote:

Java's well formed syntax, and high portability make it a language of choice and for both enterprise and desktop, what can be better than Limewire?

Clearly you've never done much with Limewire. Good god. I'd say Limewire is one of the standing applications out there that really honestly hurts Java's image.

Quote:

C# only resembles Java, and adds more complication and malformation to the structure so that it fits the .NET intermediate code or whatever, ...

The usual term is expressivity -- the ability of a language to succinctly convey at a conceptual level the tasks that are being performed.

Careful young padawan. Reread those links again and carefully. Or Promit will come through here and slap you with the truth! [grin] (edit: I'm 8 minutes too late) Seriously, let's take a quick look at what you said.

Quote:

Original post by eSam Thanks! After reading your posts, following up the suggested links, and researching other resources, I came to a conclusion that C# is only an attempt to relplace or at least to gain attention as an MS propretary language.

Not quite. C# is actually ANSI/ISO standard which means anyone can write a standard implementation. It's not a Microsoft-only language. Though MS puts alot of effort and resources into it.

Quote:

.NET as I understand can be served by any language that has a .NET compiler, and for the best of all there's managed C++.

Allow me to slightly add to that. Yes, J#, C#, VB.net, Boo, F#, IronPython all can use the .NET library and because they all compile to the same bytecode you can even intermingle one language with another. But please please don't use managed C++ when you can use C#. Believe me you WANT to use C#.

Quote:

Java's well formed syntax, and high portability make it a language of choice and for both enterprise and desktop, what can be better than Limewire? I wished that GoogleEarth was written in Java.

I'm not sure what GoogleEarth is written though I have a feeling it's Python (or partially Python) for some reason. I'm curious as to why you think GoogleEarth would be better if it were written in Java.

Quote:

C# only resembles Java, and adds more complication and malformation to the structure so that it fits the .NET intermediate code or whatever, ...

C# and Java do resemble each other. But that's the keyword resemble. C# at this point in the game, language-wise, is a far more powerful language than Java (though that may change with Java 6). You should check the C# 3.0 spec (actually there's a thread about it if you search for it). Very flexible and powerful.

Don't knock C# because MS touts it rather publicly. It's a good language with a wonderful editor. C# works with Visual Studio (MS compiler) and Mono (open-source, Novell backed compiler). So technically C# is as open sourced as Java. It's just that MS' version of C# is more mature than Novell's version, but that's changing as well.

GoogleEarth is wirtten in C++ and it uses the Trolltech lib for gui. Gfx is both OGL and DX.

Well it could be more portable and written only once instad of having a crash-every-moment linux port.

Something that nobody disagrees with is the fact that, what really counts, is your ability to solve problems using good OOP (and generally, programming) practices, in whatever language you decide to use.

And also, being proficient in more than one language helps a lot; If you can, learn Java, C#, and perhaps one or another scripting language, or languages like Python and Ruby. Being tied to a language may "tarnish" your ability to judge the best solution for a given problem.

Java still has plenty of years in its lifespan, it is not even out of its teens yet. Don't just listen to some people who talked like they know everything, do some research on what type of people is being hired by companies.

Quote:

Original post by Son of Cain Something that nobody disagrees with is the fact that, what really counts, is your ability to solve problems using good OOP (and generally, programming) practices, in whatever language you decide to use. And also, being proficient in more than one language helps a lot; If you can, learn Java, C#, and perhaps one or another scripting language, or languages like Python and Ruby. Being tied to a language may "tarnish" your ability to judge the best solution for a given problem.

I agree with this totally.

How long does it take anyone who has been programming for a while to learn a new language? A week? If you know how languages work -- it doesn't take long to pick up a new language.

The same goes for libraries. The ideas are the same, and most of the patterns are the same, and where they differ can be learned as work progresses.

Language comparisons are difficult to quantify, because most ideas that are central to a language create a double edged sword (there's always a trade off).

If you go with C# how many different liscenses are you going to have to pay for yearly? From your competitor MS?


L-

To learn a new language certainly takes more than a week, even if you are already a somewhat skilled programmer.

Why?

Because, syntax apart, the real asset a language has is the standard API it carries, plus the community developed libraries that give support to it. Even if you learn how to use a language in one week, to use it efficiently is a matter of weeks, at the very least.

But, it's true that, once you program in a concept-related language, you can pick up a new one faster than when you switch from a structured or procedural to an OO language, for example. It's easier to learn C++ from Java, than to learn ol' Pascal from Java.

Quote:

Original post by Son of Cain Because, syntax apart, the real asset a language has is the standard API it carries, plus the community developed libraries that give support to it. Even if you learn how to use a language in one week, to use it efficiently is a matter of weeks, at the very least.

More than that, each language has its own quirks, idioms, and conventions that take time to pick up. Java and C# are closer than most in this respect, but they are not the same.

Quote:

Original post by Anonymous Poster - I am not sure how these so-called Java developers stand this quiet. Why don't you just answer to this obnoxious behaviour?

Because it's a total waste of time. Correct the FUD when you see it and move on. It's pointless getting into "My Daddy can kick your Daddy's ass" sort of flamefests. Put the info out there and let people form their own opinions. Be comfortable in the fact that Java works for you, you know how to use it, and that you see benefits in using it. Everyone else will follow their own noses, whether it lead them to Java, C# or other pastures. If Joe Blow thinks Java sucks eggs and C# is the best thing ever -- who cares? We are all wired differently, there's no one-size-fits-all solution, so on and so forth.

Let the ranters and ravers rant and rave by themselves and keep writing your Java apps.

Quote:

Original post by Aldacron Quote: Original post by Anonymous Poster - I am not sure how these so-called Java developers stand this quiet. Why don't you just answer to this obnoxious behaviour? Because it's a total waste of time. Correct the FUD when you see it and move on. It's pointless getting into "My Daddy can kick your Daddy's ass" sort of flamefests. Put the info out there and let people form their own opinions. Be comfortable in the fact that Java works for you, you know how to use it, and that you see benefits in using it. Everyone else will follow their own noses, whether it lead them to Java, C# or other pastures. If Joe Blow thinks Java sucks eggs and C# is the best thing ever -- who cares? We are all wired differently, there's no one-size-fits-all solution, so on and so forth. Let the ranters and ravers rant and rave by themselves and keep writing your Java apps.

Seconded. Couldn't have said better myself.
Blind Evangelism is as vicious as FUD - it distorts facts and mislead people.

Quote:

Original post by Anonymous Poster Quote: Original post by Alpha_ProgDes Not quite. C# is actually ANSI/ISO standard which means anyone can write a standard implementation. It's not a Microsoft-only language. Though MS puts alot of effort and resources into it. And that means what? A standard doesn't guarantee interoperability, if you use .Net on Windows you are locked with Windows and to Windows specific APIs.

Remember that J2ME doesn't work the same on every mobile device (cell phones anyone?), so in that respect Java falls into the same trap. Also, there are people who have programmed in Java for Win, Linux, and OSX and have had to change their code slightly to get it to work properly for each platform. So if a user looking for cross-platform development wants to use C#, then that user will use Mono. If he targets Windows, he'll use .NET. The library/code changes are minimal when switching from a Mono-C# to a .NET-C# and vice versa.

Quote:

Quote: Allow me to slightly add to that. Yes, J#, C#, VB.net, Boo, F#, IronPython all can use the .NET library and because they all compile to the same bytecode you can even intermingle one language with another. But please please don't use managed C++ when you can use C#. Believe me you WANT to use C#. Yes, and Java has more than 70 languages running on the JVM, so what?

So, I was answering his question about language interoperability in .NET and also responding to his statement about Managed C++ being the best to use in .NET.

Quote:

Quote: C# and Java do resemble each other. But that's the keyword resemble. C# at this point in the game, language-wise, is a far more powerful language than Java (though that may change with Java 6). You should check the C# 3.0 spec (actually there's a thread about it if you search for it). Very flexible and powerful. C# is bloated. Bloated without hope. Microsoft adds whatever it wants, the way it wants without any consideration with backward compatibility (that's why .Net is a joke in the enterprise). Trust me, in a few years C# will be the new Perl, 10 ways of accomplishing the same task.

True, .NET 1.1 code breaks in .NET 2.0. But at least MS has taken it upon themselves to improve the language and the library setup. I'll admit to not having use Java or C# in anything non-trivial. But the MS library setup is far more intuitive than Java's. That alone makes my coding life much easier.

Quote:

Questionable choices such as operator overloading alone should keep conscious developers away from this Microsoft trap.

Well that's a coding philosophy issue. But C# allows function overloading as well as operator overloading so a developer can use whatever style is more intuitive and comfortable to him.

Quote:

Quote: Don't knock C# because MS touts it rather publicly. It's a good language with a wonderful editor. C# works with Visual Studio (MS compiler) and Mono (open-source, Novell backed compiler). So technically C# is as open sourced as Java. It's just that MS' version of C# is more mature than Novell's version, but that's changing as well. No, it's not. We are able to run Java code unmodified in many platforms and you can't do the same with C#. Visual Studio relies on Windows specific APIs, that means that an application written for Windows can't run on Linux.

As I bolded, in many but not all platforms is Java able to run unmodified as I noted above. Mono also can run C# unmodified on many platforms as well. Just to be clear, I only mentioned .NET when the OP asked about it. Other than that I kept my discussion to the languages. You seem to be arguing that Java is a better platform and language than .NET and C#. This kind of subtle back and forth can confuse the OP and other readers when it's not clear that you are about the Java Platform or the Java language.

Quote:

I have been reading this forum for awhile and notice two things: - There are a lot of .Net cheerleaders around, trying to push it to any newcomer, and creating FUD about Java all the time;

Nowhere in my post have I cheerleaded C# or even .NET. I only responded to dispel misconceptions about the both. Also, nowhere in my post have I knocked or said anything ill about Java (language or platform).

Quote:

- I am not sure how these so-called Java developers stand this quiet. Why don't you just answer to this obnoxious behaviour? By any chance the "cheerleaders" are the owners of the forum?

If anything, they cheerlead Python [smile]

Quote:

Seriously, this is a Java forum, anyone marketing Microsoft proprietary stuff (yes, doesn't run on any platform unmodified) should be considered a Troll and treated as such.

The OP is on a Java forum asking about C#. Also as it has been said before, C# is not MS proprietary. So for a meaningful discussion maybe [in another thread] we should discuss Java, the language and Mono & C#.

Readers should be aware that the AP in this thread is both a liar and an idiot.

Quote:

Original post by Promit Readers should be aware that the AP in this thread is both a liar and an idiot.

indeed. As long as you stay out of the Microsoft namespace, you are coding in open standard API. yes, that includes System.Windows.Forms. Mono is rapidly implementing it's missing features in the System namespace. Just give it time, it's a full 6 years younger than Java.

And for the record, I use both Java and .NET for enterprise AND desktop development. I like certain aspects of JSP better than ASP.NET. On the other hand, .NET makes it very easy to make extremely powerful Windows Services.

Everybody here seems to be using one language or another as the right tool for their jobs; It's not out of plain stupidity, you know? So, anyone wishing to discuss a particular language should, at the very first moment, acknowledge and respect the fact that people use and like other languages, and they have valid reasons to do so.

Ignoring this fact is blind evangelism, lead purely by passion, and it blurs the vision of a clean solution for any problem.

I love Java; I use it to develop desktop, micro and distributed applications. I don't like C#, for several other reasons - but none of them is valid to say "C# is crap". Also, I know very well the limitations of Java (having worked for quite some time in the three platforms available), and I know it isn't perfect. Hence, I advertise Java for those interested about it, and I also respect those who, for several valid reasons, stick to .NET. To me, .NET is a terrible business choice, but many many many people have direct benefits out of its usage. Period. So, the least I can do is respect them, and be respected for my choices.

Respect is something that this forum is lacking a lot lately.. There are great people here, but instead of discussing cool subjects related to Java game programming, we're drowned in an endless list of pointless flamewars... =/

Quote:

Original post by Anonymous Poster Terrible analogy. Cell phones aren't PCs. Cell phones, unlike PCs, have the most varied configurations of hardware that could cause an application to run differently. Java does its job in keeping a standard API to work with.

Terrible analogy or not it still shows that Java isn't the 'be and end all' of run anywhere languages as you claim.

Quote:

Original post by Anonymous Poster BTW, it's clear how operator overloading can be terribly misused.

Its also very powerful, ever tried writing something like a complex number class in Java and using it in code? Things get ugly fast. All powerful languages can be misued, there are (very necessary) features common to Java as well as C# that can be misued. Its the responcibility of the programmer when using these features which matters in the end.

Quote:

Original post by Anonymous Poster Microsoft adds whatever it wants, the way it wants without any consideration with backward compatibility/

The new 'Generics' feature in Java 1.5 doesn't work on older vitual machines so Microsoft isn't only only one with blood on their hands here.


Personally I don't lean either way on the language divide. Its a bad call -- they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. That said, I have coded large apps in both and have found C# to be more productive.

arm.