Games and Eductation

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Teachers are the law. If you can not please the teacher with your design or make it clear to them in the beginning they will not let anything fly.

I think that's pretty naïve, if you don't mind me saying so. Teachers are ultimately accountable to the school, and the school to parents and the government.

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Teachers are scared. They do not want change and or they think that it is a job threatening thing to try to take there classes in recreate them in a game fashion. They tend to use the excuse "O that wont work in my class"

What makes you believe that they're lying to you? I think you're best assuming people are honest and professional until you have reason to believe otherwise. What makes you think that you know what will work in their class better than they do? I think you need to spend more time listening to experienced teachers - you're going to need their help if you want to make your project a success.

so basically you're saying you want to introduce games into your teachers' curriculums? I think it's an awesome idea, but who is going to produce these games? That's a lot of work.

I do think it could work given the model you've specified, or even if the game was 100% educational, simply because most students would probably rather play a boring game than just study.

I think you'd have to narrow things down a bit and take gaming and education in a course by course basis. Look at what has worked and try and see why it worked in its respective field and apply that to your games.

Ex.
Oregon trail was a fantastic game. Why? All it really was made up of was some American history and a little geography. The presentation added a slow stream of info in between a compelling game. It had an overall goal that was not contrived or insulting to a gamer would expect. It had random occurances that added replay value and made the game different every time. It had attachment with teh charactes because it was you who were driving the cattle and your friends/family/whatever. When someone died of typhoid fever or broke their arm, you cared because it took up time and because it was someone you knew. All these things and more are elements i a great game, but look how they slid education in every nook.

Things taught in Oregon Trail
American history
American geography
Measurement- Is the water to deep to cross on foot, how many pounds of food do I need to make it to Fort Casey?
Medical conditions and how it affected people back in those days
Resource management- Spend the money on an extra oxen or spare wagon parts?

Theres a lot more but I'm out of time so I'll end it here. Oregon trail is a great game but as a kid I took a lot away from that game in general knowledge and all I could think about was getting farther then my friends the next time I played it. I already have an old copy ready to unleash on my kids when they are old enough. I thin the biggest challenge is making the game fun first then adding elements of education without compromising your framework too much. Hope it helped.

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from Educational Games Don't Have To Stink, by Ernest W. Adams In short, it's my belief that games don't teach, they illustrate. That's an important distinction. Games are not useless in the educational process, but they're not good at teaching per se. Games are good at creating understanding of knowledge the student already has. And they're excellent at transforming abstract ideas into concrete experience. Games don't teach, but they can help people learn.

The article raises an excellent point in that we don't typically learn all that much when we're playing a game. Overcoming some obstacle in a game might require us to take some piece of knowledge on-board, but as soon as the obstacle is passed we forget all about it and move on to the next problem.

A succesful educational game is likely to instead illustrate and build upon knowledge the student has already learnt: A student may have learnt about something in physics for example, and could then play a game which demonstrates what they've just learnt in action - they can actually see the effect of the theory they've just learned about, and might be able to change things and see some of the different results that can occur. The fact that the demonstration is in the form of a game means that we're able to exagerate the effects and can demonstrate far beyond what a simple classroom experiment might be able to show.

In my opinion the real place for games in education is largely as fairly small games that are highly focussed on some particular subject matter, and which can be used to support more traditional learning methods rather than as a replacement.

Thank you those who have given more critique than making crude statements on situations they are not experancing. True enough we are in the processes just creating a 3d world. That students will generally interact in. To gather information as they would taking an online course. Then we are picking specific concepts and events to make "learning objectives"(games and or challenges that the player must overcome using knowledge he is going to gain during the learning objective or before) for the player.

I agree that i think those who like games will enjoy a boring one with more push twords education than game play. But you can still make it an enjoyable experance without it always about having fun. A lot of people get that mixed up. A game is about entertainment. Fun is a part of entertainment but not the entire part of it. So the challenge is to entertain and educate.

I found it amusing that as the new lead designer you're apparently not knowledgable about the subject i.e having to ask on game dev ;)

However you clearly understand some of the key and important issues you'll face in terms of bringing games into an educational context, along with actually getting them used.

You statement that 'Teachers are the law' is pretty true from the reports i've seen, in that if you can't convince a teacher the benifits of using a game they will simply not use it. Afterall they are responsable for teaching and getting the students to pass exams, why should they take the risk?

'Teachers being scared' is a real concern, although I don't believe they are afriad of losing there jobs, its more a case of being educated in terms of what games can bring to education and as you pointed out, resistance to change.

There is a far bigger problem though in that often its the restrictions placed on the computer network by the IT departments and lack of computer knowledge that often becomes a barrier to uterlising game applications, unless you are fortunate (as it appears in your case) to have a college actively developing its own software and supporting the effort.

I started by suggesting you weren't knowledgable about the subject, this is not intended to be a dig at you. Just that what you present with your idea, appears to be far removed from the issues you should be dealing with and indeed what educationalists are looking at these days. That from the albeit brief description, its too narrowly focused and far too dependant upon a game mechanic which actually doesn't work that well.

Whilst games must present a challenge, using the traditional game learning/difficulty curve is not a blueprint for success. Indeed it often fails in that many players will never finish a game. I've been a hardcore gamer for much of my life, but there are numerous games i've just not finished, and many others (esp adventure games) that I only complete by resorting to a walkthrough for whatever reason - one of which becuase they become 'boring', but i want to know what hapens at the end.

As to the specific idea it seams somewhat bizzare to place all the fun in the first 60% and then suddenly switch to enforced learning with only bits of fun along the way. I don't see this solving your initial problem - making educational games fun to play. Games must be challenging, but they should also retain accessability for all ages and abilities, both mental and physical.

I'd suggest checking out Futurelab who are at the forefront in developing innovative learning resources and practices that support new approaches to education. With funding from various sources and companies. They produce great literature, most avaialbe for download as pdf's.

Specifically you might find the report Teaching with Games interseting.

Well I am trying to get information from the public. On there ideals on the subject. Though I totally understand what your saying. I am not front loading being a lead designer as trying to throw my weight around. If it came off that way i apologize personally. I am very excited about this job so I think that might have come off wrong. I do not know everything nore do I intend to fake that I do.
I pose this question on this forum because i want to hear what my peers and fellow designers think about the general topic.

Concerning my idea about the curve. That is just an idea I worked up. Purposing so to speak. I put it up here because I wanted to hear peoples feedback on it and give ideas. Not to speak it as the say all be all of what is best.

Ok things we have been attempting to do. To make easier transitions. We have a problem with the teachers wishing us completely design and program something for them to see before they give a go or no. Now thats extreamly a waist of time. Spending the time to create and produce something that could be thrown out or asked to be completely recoded is bad.

So we have worked on creating highly detailed documentation. Such that is understandable for a common man to a the technical writer. Providing as much visual feedback as possible.

Also one of the first steps we are taking is converting one of the web courses from general web to 3d format. Now this may not be entirally a "game" but we are trying to create more immersion and aesthetically appealing. Which then we are going to branch off into.


Another thing Noisecrime to take into account. Is that when a student pays for a class in which is in game format. They must complete it for the Grade. So the student if they do not finish the game will attain a low grade for the class. Or if it is a separate function of a class would get a low grade for that section.
So we have some leeway on the aspect that the players will have a inborn push to accomplish the game and meet the best winning condition to achieve the highest grade. Which means not all aspects must be entertaining.

Thank you for what you have said and I am researching the links you have posted.
Do you have any personal experience with dealing with similar situations? If so please post what you did to conqour them or found that worked the best.

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Original post by FadedPhoenix Another thing Noisecrime to take into account. Is that when a student pays for a class in which is in game format. They must complete it for the Grade. So the student if they do not finish the game will attain a low grade for the class. Or if it is a separate function of a class would get a low grade for that section. So we have some leeway on the aspect that the players will have a inborn push to accomplish the game and meet the best winning condition to achieve the highest grade. Which means not all aspects must be entertaining.

What about the hardcore? There will be busy students who don't want or need a game to motivate them. If they have to play the game, and the first 60% of it doesn't even gain them anything, they will see it as a waste of time and will not be pleased.

Well information would still be passed. As well as important information that will need to be applied. But the learning would be secondary to the actual game. Then slowly change to become primary. It is a very experimental field to bring games to education. So its not like we have lots of information or as much experience in this field. Ive been reading a lot of books on the subject. Mostly scholarly. It is quite a challenge because you can not look at them in a completly conventional mannar.

Hey Faded,

Glad you took what i wrote in the spirit it was intended, although i'd been ill this last week and think i was still a bit grumpy about it when i wrote my reply ;)

Concerning your attempt at easier transitions, I appuald your dedication in writing up such extensive detailed documents. For ones self these are essential in coming to terms with understanding what you are attempting to do, but often find they just don't cut it when dealing with others. I speak from both sides of the fence here, (though not always in the educational domain), in presenting clients with concepts and getting concepts from clients to implement. Even the best written most extensive documents have nearly always had a feature or two misinturpreted or simply not understood by one party or the other, the inclusion of pretty pictures sometimes made it worse ;)

I used to beleive that a good document could address everything, however currently I think the only way to get around this (although it should never replace such docuemnts) is to create quick prototypes, as many as possible, to at least get over basic concpets and identify areas that can be improved or approached differently. However even this can be problematic as often the other party expects something 'finished' whilst the coders/designers are looking at a much higher level. - I don't think there is an easy solution

>> 'Such that is understandable for a common man to a the technical writer.'

Ha, well just don't let me read it, I have a knack of looking too deeply into things that are written simply, since they often leave 'obvious' to me gaps or issues, yet in reality its just me being pedantic ;) - Mind you its also surprisngly just how many times it turns out there is an obvious gap that hasn't been addressed, especialy when projects get bigger.

Thanks for the elabroation about the course. I'm somewhat surprised that a game would be so integral to actual grading, thats a massive step to take and it will be facinating to see what the results are in terms of pass/fail/dropout rates compared to a non-game based course.

It feels very risky for both college and student especially as gamers are really not that common. Games come with built in metaphors, stradegies, constriants and usability standards which gamers intrinctingly understand, but non-gamers do not and have to learn. This was my main concern with your original posted idea. Still its an interesting and bold approach.

You talk about converting an exisitng course into a 3D format. A process that is pretty much essential for getting an understanding of the issues and oppertunities you will face and a great starting point, but i'm always wary of taking something designed in one format/medium and simply trying to translate it into another (not that you say this is what you're doing).

The obvious aspect is that one tries to force something into new constraints and ends up diluting its value, but I also have alarm bells going off when people talk about it for the sake of doing it becuase its cool, immersive, more appealing. Again this might not be why 'you' are doing it - as I said it offers a great starting point which should be a good enough reason in the first place. Yet its so damn easy to get carried away with new technology and falling into this type of mindset.

As to personal experience, i've been working on some educational projects over the past year and should be starting a new one in the new year. Prior to that it was mainly game developemnt, though that frequently branched out into dealing with the fringes of 'education'. I hope i didn't come across as a 'know-it-all' becuase i'm not (yet ;) ), but its an area that interests me greatly and which i'm expanding into as it presents new challenges as i'm sure you are discovering.

Unfortunately the projects I have/am involved with are nothing like your own. They are somewhat constrained by a 'decide by commity' requirements/format which simply don't apply themsleves to game orientated design. You seem to have much more freedom in terms of the design, something that i'm working towards if I can find the right project.

Indeed they have taken what appears to be a very differet approach in that they use game metaphors, style, design, but aren't really what i'd call a game. Several are based upon a 'sequencer' type desgin and don't actually teach anything directly but are more for supporting or exploring what the kids have meant to have been learning. So i can't offer any direct advice other than what i've already talked about.

i'll try and add some more, but hey its xmas you know ;)

If you want to and are allowed (too many NDA's) please feel free to elabroate further.

What exactly is an 'educational' game? Is it a game that teaches? All games do that, or they're no fun. That may sound odd for some games, but think about it: if you knew everything there was to know in a certain game, would you play it? Probably not; it would be boring.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the kind of game you're talking about is a game that teaches semantic knowledge, as opposed to the traditional game that teaches mostly procedural knowledge.

Most games teach little to no semantic knowledge because the entire essence of a game is in doing something. That is, a game is a system that a player acts within, whereas another medium is a stream of stimuli that a reader/viewer/listener takes in.

Games, therefore, are best suited to teaching procedures, the most important of which is learning, which all games teach. If you want to improve students' effectiveness in the classroom, all you have to do is encourage game-playing in healthy doses.

On the other hand, if you want to teach a specific procedure, it's not as simple as modeling the procedure in a game because then it becomes a simulation. Simulations are not fun, and therefore will not maintain students' attentions unless you require that they use the simulation.

You can, however, make a game that teaches part of a procedure. Most action games teach hand-eye coordination, which is important to various skills like surgery, for example. In fact, studies have shown that doctors who play video games are more dexterous than their non-gamer counterparts, and gamers who are not doctors are able to pass doctors' hand-eye coordination tests, despite their lack of medical knowledge.

One thing that might get teacher's attention is if you can demonstrate that you will save them time and effort (especially on mundane/tedious activities).
This was a big aspect of an online learning company I worked at that handled basic college course subjects.

Games (game like experiments) were used to actually demonstrate ideas/concepts that the students had covered in the course materials (readings/quizes,etc..).
That company had automated the reading/review/quiz grading/paper submission functions (to eliminate ALOT of an instructors overhead) but even having the experiments and result analysis automated saved a great amount of time (an experiment could be run in an hour and the results analysis made immediately visible -- which previously took days to accomplish).

Another aspect was allowing the instructors to inject their own materials into the lessons -- which can be much harder to do in a game system .

There is a project I saw mentioned using the NeverWinterNights engine to simulate a history lesson (students walking around in a 3D world and talking to NPCs to get information to accomplish some tasks that taught them various concepts.

I believe a main problem in teaching with games is the location where you play it. Many things can be fun, but most kids wont like these things while they are in school... History can be very intresting (i have found out), but I really hated it while in school.


I am sure that you are able to learn from games, but to learn it should be something like "95% fun game to waste time" + "5% hidden knowlegde, learned by doing, while not telling the kid that he is learning something"

Games like this are not good for teaching, but could be very nice games to give away to kids for their freetime.

Warning: the unlicenced distribution of copyrighted material may not infringe that copyright provided the distribution is non-profit and the material is educational in nature. Not many courts would define a computer game as educational, unless of course it was mentioned in the draft that it was specifically designed for this purpose. For instance, if you sold an 'educational' game to a school, then each and every pupil could legally make a copy to take home (for their own 'private study'). It may even be the case that other companies could make a very similar game, and provided they distribute this freely it would not infringe copyright. If you want to make any money out of this, and don't want to be screwed over, you'll need to look closely at the legal loopholes.

Great idea by the way. I'm always in favour of adding more fun to classrooms :)

Although not a game, the Pimsleur method for language learning is one of the most profound techniques I have seen for non traditional learning. The process of learning comes naturally unlike any other form of learning other than just trial and error. The key to Pimsleur is that is was designed specifically for language learning drawing parallels to how children learn. I am not sure how that would help you for games, but by starting with the subject matter I think would be the best approach to making educational games. I think different subjects will lend thenselves to different types of games. I work in 3d environment research and would say it is useful for some forms of transmission of knowledge, but might not be the best form for many educational subjects.

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Original post by alunharford What makes you believe that they're lying to you? I think you're best assuming people are honest and professional until you have reason to believe otherwise. What makes you think that you know what will work in their class better than they do? I think you need to spend more time listening to experienced teachers - you're going to need their help if you want to make your project a success.

You've never been to school in the USA I take it. Public schools are generally crap. Perhaps one in ten teachers (from my experience) deserve to be there.

DathGale

Well something to consider with games in general. They are designed to entertain. They do not always have to be fun. Entertaining is anything that pulls at your attention. Just like flashy shinny things. At least for me. But something to keep in mind is the reason alot of those "simulation games" are boring and not fun is they are designed to try to be exactly like the situation. Also they are usally designed by extreamly technical designers. Not that I know that for sure but from what games ive seen designed in that manor it is either because of the designer or the constraints he/she is put in.

You can make a simulation more entertaining by working on better user interfaces. Something more intuitive slightly flashy. Something that does not pain you or take anything from the experaince. But makes it better than just stale. It is like the difference between a teacher who speaks in a monotone voice and uses no metaphors and shows no love for what he/she teaches. But throw in a passionate teacher who loves what they do. Who is excited and modulates voice. Showing his passion you are instinctively drawn to the person and what they are speaking about. That same thing is translatable in game/learning environment.

Also I personally try to see past what is normally done or using methods which we do now to emulate other things. I work with some teachers who help me understand basic teaching methods which you would be surprised are used in games.

Repetition
Critical thinking
puzzle solving
Applied learning

Example: Lets say we are learning about history, The civil war. You log into your lobby area were you can check your assignments in your tool bar gui. You then go check the boards in the main hall building. You see some of your friends running around. You find out you have an worksheet to do and some reading. But also a new area has been opened for you to explore that has some key information for the next test. You go to the learning objective terminal and see the new one available labeled "battle of someplace". You worksheet says that you need to able to identify the different parts of the weapons used in battle, the formations used in battle, and what different uniforms look like. So you enter your learning area. You are thrown into the heat of battle. Your given commands and things to complete. As you do you are given key information that you need for your exam and to complete your work sheet. You then might have to help set up a supply manifest for the general. Which you must look at whats in a supply holder and log all of it. ((applying what you learned up to that point)).

This is just one way of doing it there are many. I just wanted to try to inspire to think a little differently. You can revamp conventional techniques within a more engaging environment.

Noise do you have aim ???

Hey Faded,

Nope sorry don't use AIM, but i've pm'd you ( log into gamedev and then go to control panel>messenger>inbox or you might notice a flashy bit of text near the top of each forum page announcing a message)