MMORPG gameplay

I dunno. Tetris is a treadmill but it's one of the most popular games of all time. At some level, game design is tweaking itself over time to maximize the human brain's desire to play them. The grindy 0.1% upgrade treadmill format of the EQs and WoWs of the world may seem like lame design, but it's wildly popular in the market. You get the little happy brain burst of continual advancement which keeps you coming back.

WoW has ~8million active accounts. EQ had ~2million in it's heyday. GuildWars is something entirely different (more akin to 3D PvP magic the gathering) and wildly popular in Korea.

DDO offered a different type of game, but IMHO just didn't have the content necessary to support a userbase: you had to repeat dungeons to get enough XP to reach the level cap.

So I guess, yes there is plenty of room to branch out in the design of MMO games. There is certainly room for improvement, but because of the phenominal financial success of EQ and WoW you can't really argue that it's bad design b/c it sure as hell sells well and keeps people playing.

In my opinion the biggest challenge for novel MMO game design going forward is the success of WoW. I mean by this that investors and big publishers have so far seen only one real successful design template for MMOs. As such they are perhaps hesitant to drop dollars into something that isn't an EQ/WoW clone.

-me

You mean like Puzzle Pirates? (though that game is very treadmill, it still varies quite a bit in many of the societal dynamics)


The problem is that it's more difficult to take chances with MMORPGs. If someone makes something random for single player, it'll be fun or not with anyone who tries it. For a multiplayer game and a MMO especially, there's always that critical mass needed to make the game feasible. Something new is a hard sell, especially when it's guaranteed to suck until you reach that mass.


As for what I'd like, I don't much care. I loathe the drooling masses who populate online play these days.

Puzzle Pirates and Guild Wars mitigate such interaction but it's still enough to make me wary of any future MMO.

[edit:] Oh, and monthly fees are abhorrent.

Anything that is done, someone theoretically could do better. There are lots of people with ideas for innovative MMOs (like me, toying with a design for a non-violent MMO with lots of puzzle and sim gameplay) but most of those ideas will never become games because producing an MMO from any kind of idea is exceedingly difficult.

World of Warcraft was a massive improvement on previous generations of MMORPGs. They pretty much took the formula, cleaned it up, streamlined it, and fixed a lot of the annoyances. But it's still the classic formula.

I think you don't see people asking for more because it was already such a huge jump forward. Now, if Blizzard came out with another MMO, and it was the same formula again... I wonder if there wouldn't be a bit more rabble-rabble-rabble.

Guild Wars did a great job bringing some innovation there, though I'm not sure I would completely consider it part of the MMORPG genre. It's more akin to Diablo 2 with an in-game Battle.net.

what i would realy like to see is a fps mmo or an action/rpg mmo

Well I wandered several years of my life now to find a good mmorpg and I am still amazed how hard and unsuccesful this search can be, exspecially as my standards have risen the more I occupied myself with it.

There were some promising concept in some free games and discussion but I did not see yet any of them come to a completion or into a fully implemented state, some are abondanded some take just to long.

As for canditates for some innovative new system i only know of Age of Conan,
well I also considered trying out a tale in the desert but after reading the ability descriptions i just did not get that feeling.

Well I will try to list some stuff I found interesting when I first encountered it.(most is dropped or something else etc)

http://www.magicosm.net/
tried to make a unique system for magic, aswell as experience gain and
introduced the idea of lore

http://www.faeriemud.org/
Is a project in the text based genre, but with very good ideas even outside
that field

http://daedalmacabre.org/
Also a text based game, has a large collection of races and an intersting set of skills and perks, also ahs some funny ideas like player can become demigods by praying to them.

http://kuro-tejina.shroom.net/Forums/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=6&sid=a9908f803dae083eb848a0b989cfca0d
Basically some exotic ideas I had back then and discussed with a guy in that forum, that was also where I developed the first ideas to "combat made of elementary action" which some might is remember the name of a topic I posted here in Gamedev.net

http://www.redwyrm.com/index.htm <-- link does not work anymore
http://www.betawatcher.com/game.aspx?gameid=164 <-- to proof it existed
the game development was pretty much driven by the forum community and besides having an interesting story, there was some pretty good and exotic ideas for races out there.(I think the developers later named themself something
with storm... but do not know the exact name anymore)

http://www.thronesofchaos.com/index.html
Although the site does not show much of it, this originated from a different named game, the features I was interested in were playing a blodline instead of a character and the open skillsystem it promised.

(german site) http://www.rpg-atelier.net
This belongs into the rpg maker community a programm made to design simple Rpgs etc, some came up with quite some innovative and interesting fighting systems although you have tio search for them

unfortunately my memory is quite badass so I do not remember anymore right now.

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Original post by azeime what i would realy like to see is a fps mmo or an action/rpg mmo

PlanetSide was pretty much a MMOFPS. It didn't stand the test of time very well, though. I think Huxley might be something like an MMOFPS, too? Not sure about that.

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Original post by Wush As for canditates for some innovative new system i only know of Age of Conan,

I had high hopes for Age of Conan until I saw their trailers. Lots of man thighs and decapitation, but I think their art has a lot of problems. I couldn't get into it.

Maybe I'm spoiled after WoW's quality art direction. :(

Thanks for the great replies and links!

One of the interesting aspects of Vanguard that I read about is their "political" system. The example they give is needing to speak to the King to get a quest, but the guards won't let you in. Killing all the guards would be difficult, so an alternative is to use your influence as an aristocrat to gain an audiance with the King.

From what I gather, their political system is based around picking the correct pre-defined responses to NPCs in order to build up the reputation or influence you want.

I've thought about using politics in a game as well, but on a more global scale. For example, providing players with game mechanics to control how different regions and cities interact with one another, as well as having NPCs respond to you differently based on your previous actions.

How appealing do you think political systems are going to be to the average MMORPG player? Will they be ignored or looked at as an inconvenience? WoW has a very rudimentary system with factions. I found the amount of grinding required versus reward to not be worth it.

Also, I just wanted to say thanks for posting that link to Puzzle Pirates. That's an incredible idea, and confirms a somewhat related idea that I had for an MMO. I think some games tried to do that before to a lesser extent with loads of mini-games, but they usually sucked =(


I beta tested an FPS MMORPG called Endless Ages. I don't think anything ever came of it, but the idea itself was interesting. I read about an MMO coming out soon where one class uses FPS-style play for battles.

In my opinion that's the future of MMORPGs. I think more and more genres will be incorporated and used to implement various classes/game systems. Puzzle, FPS, driving, shooter, fighting, sim, etc. I think they will all start to have an equal impact on, and contribution to, the game world. I see players being encouraged to use the systems that appeal to them (without the drawback of feeling inferior or put out because you don't like combat, or crafting, etc)

I don't. MMOs are massive, difficult endeavors as is (especially in balancing). Adding to that will not yield more success. Puzzle pirates just uses the puzzles as a replacement for the standard numerical leveling. You can't use a bot or just dump meaningless time into the game when your character's skill is directly proportional to your skill at a puzzle... (though puzzle pirates' main accomplishment was nurturing an active anti-lamer community)

Another day, another WoW-bashing post. I'm going to reinstate my petition that this forum should be changed from "Game Design" to "OMG WoW SuXx0RZ!!!"

Posts like this make me think of this:

link

I don't understand what "hype" allegedly pulled you into WoW without understanding it. When someone says "World of Warcraft. It's Warcraft, but an MMORPG," the first things one should imagine about it are that it's going to take place in the Warcraft universe, it's going to be MMO, and it's going to be an RPG. I find it hard to believe that you were actually shocked to find out that an RPG stuck to RPG conventions. Zelda is not an RPG, and niether is Gears of War. If you like those games, then you should play them, and not complain that RPG's should actually be Action Adventure games or FPS's.

You seem to be an FPS fan but a detractor of MMORPG's. I can probably find quite a few people who would say the opposite of your sentiment; that in fact, WoW is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and Gears of War is just yet another run of the mill FPS, except now they glued the chainsaw to the gun instead of keeping it separate like in Doom 1.

So my opinion? No, I would not like to see MMORPG's turn into something "refreshingly new". There are enough combinations of letters that any game can make up its own subgenre and get a fancy acronym to go with it. So go ahead and make an MMOZSA (MMO Zelda style Adventure) or MMOGoW (MMO Gears of War). If they're fun, I might play them. But I don't see any pressing need at all that the 8 million people who currently enjoy WoW need to be taught some kind of lesson and learn that they don't actually like the game they think they like, and that a bunch of hobbyist developers will one day prove that they are all actually brainless sheep with no will of their own, who can only really learn to think for themselves by instead playing a real MMORPG, the one that said hobbysit developers are going to make, which will be way totally cooler than lame ol' WoW.

Especially since if that game ever did become more popular than WoW, you'd have all the bitter forumites here claiming that now, everyone who liked YOUR game was just a brainwashed zombie consumer, and that they really should like a different game instead.

Uhmmm. Wow. Not WoW...but..."Wow, that was interesting"

This thread isn't about WoW sucking. It's about other game designers discussing a stale genre and how to innovate within it, should it interest them to do so.

That being said.....

As for FPS...I really dislike most FPS games. I mentioned GoW because it was the 1st to come along in awhile that actually grabbed my interest. All it took was taking out jumping and adding some context sensitive moves, not "glueing a chainsaw to a gun." I was using it as an example of a game that brought something fresh to an otherwise stale genre.

For the record, my favorite genre is RPGs.

I do resent the fact that "MMORPG" has come to mean what it has. Coming from a background of playing very intricate MUDs, the gameplay in most MMORPGs is a step back from what it's parent genre offers. Maybe it's a difference in terminology, but when EQ came out I remember it being described as "like a MUD, but with graphics in 3D!" MMORPGS are descendents from MUDS and traditional RPGs. The barebones gameplay of EQ could be chalked up to the hardware and internet restraints that existed back then. There's little excuse now. It's been roughly a decade and it's still pretty much the same old stuff.


Everyone keeps bringing up WoW because it's so successful. It's only successful because it's based on a hugely popular franchise AND is made by a company famous for polishing the same old stuff into more refined sparkly old stuff.

I don't have anything against Blizzard, but that's their modus operandi. It works, and I'm glad for them. Those 2 factors are the only reason WoW is successful, though. Look at Star Wars Galaxies. It was unsuccessful because it didn't have both factors. Huge franchise, unpolished turd. For its time, EQ (also made by Sony) was successful, but that's because it was also groundbreaking. It's time to move on (in my opinion).

In short, I'd love to go play something that better suits my tastes, but no one has made that game yet. Maybe someday I will. Or maybe someone will read this thread and 5 or 6 years from now they themselves will. Who knows.

If everyone had your attitude, we'd still be sitting around camp fires wearing bear skins and using stone knives.

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Original post by Penance Everyone keeps bringing up WoW because it's so successful. It's only successful because it's based on a hugely popular franchise AND is made by a company famous for polishing the same old stuff into more refined sparkly old stuff.

8 million people would disagree with you. They would say it's popular because it's fun. That is the crux of my problem with the general WoW-bashing in this forum. It's not that the people who start the threads think that WoW sucks. That's fine. It's that they treat everyone who likes WoW as some sort of sub-human brainless thrall, strange little lab rats that need to be turned around and shown the "correct" games that "smart people" like.

Marketing is powerful, no one disagrees with that. But the implication that everyone who has different tastes in games than you is a zombie, but that somehow your own tastes are born of some sublime intelligence, is narcissistic and unreasonable.

People do not play WoW because they have been "tricked" into it, or because they are consumer zombies, or addicts. They just like the game. If you can not grasp that, you will never be a successful designer.

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If everyone had your attitude, we'd still be sitting around camp fires wearing bear skins and using stone knives.

I'm not saying we should stop making any games and be content with WoW. I am saying that we should instead admit that WoW is popular and try to capture what makes it so popular, if we want to make a popular MMORPG. If we don't care about popularity or about making an MMORPG, then do whatever you want. In my opinion, saying "This round wheel thing that everyone's talking about is so mainstream. I think we should use triangular wheels instead, because at least that's original" would leave us in the stone age.

I think MMORPGs like any other genre is just another genre catered towards specific audiences. You have your primary consumer group that you effectively market to, and that is what keeps the comapny afloat. Then, after you've catered to what the market wants, you then go and try something else.

The question is, what can you do in the game beyond the combat system and the treadmill? What else is there to do? The combat system is always important because it is the primary means by which people interactive. Parties of players fighting together is sort of considered "core" gameplay for any MMORPG, which is the fundamental concept anyways. So, to me, innovating means expanding the world in other ways apart from plain combat, which is what most MMO worlds are built on, at least the popular one.

I've never played WoW, so I can't comment on any of its other gameplay mechanics, but I have played and followed FFXI since it was released in the states. They still have a subscriber-ship in the millions, so I guess it's still considered a big franchise. What I liked about FFXI was the other things you could do that did not involve combat or levelling. I've met people in that game who love to go fishing. It's not because they want to earn lots of money, they just plain enjoy it. They like the company and they like the leisurely chats while casting lines off a cliff side out in the middle of no where. For the span of about 2 months in that game, I did nothing but go out and run aimlessly around every region I could gain access to just looking at the interesting geographical features and map specific points of interest (it actually became quite useful later). And recently, it seems Square-Enix has been trying to push beyond the core combat element and are trying new things. Including, most recently, the opening of officially sponsored events planned and run by users. I think that in itself means alot in an MMO as it gives the user the power to possibly play a different game under the same rules and capable of creating your own rules.

So, my point being, that yes most MMORPGs may be based on the same old stale set of combat ideas, but the thing is, that is considered "core" gameplay that have been shown to work over many iterations. The question with gameplay is then about immersion. We're supposed to be playing in a fantasy world, but what is there beyond combat that makes us feel more "in" the world? Sure, we can all throw out new technology terms and radical concepts like fully dynamic environments, user driven stories, etc., which all basically comes down to saying "How can I change the world." But I would rather think, how can we use the tools that we have now to make users feel more "a part of" the world.

Honestly, I really think the whole concept of MMO prevents any real innovation. When you're dealing with thousands or millions of players, what you can and cannot do becomes limited.

User driven story? How exactly would you accomplish this? How do you make it fair for Ms. Casual 1 HR/WK gamer vs Mr. 100+ HR/WK gamer? And you have to take into considertaion making it fair to all 120000 people on your server, whereas only 8000 will be logged on at any given time. And also under a limitation that singular portion of the event can last over 15 minutes for the casual gamer. You have to do this, because otherwise, to the casual gamer, your innovative game becomes just another grindfest.

Honestly, I just feel that MMORPG's are just a phase that we're currently going through until we hit the next phase. I'm hoping the next phase is more of a co op RPG (why aren't there more co op games anyways?), but for the time being, this is what we have.

I have never tried wow and never will people who enjoy wow are like little lemmings. The game development community hates wow ...WHY? because we can create something better(if we stop complaining and do something). Lets look at mmo's today

Wow: Lots of people,bad community, bad combat
(from what forums say) (great advertising in the begginging and still)

eqq2:no people,no community,bad combat
(i mean this is a horrible game i stayed for a month)

ff11:decent people,incredible community,bad combat
( the community is incredible but the combat just sucks its so slow it takes my guy 10 seconds to swing his dagger)


the reason why mmos are standing still and staying boring is nto because of the game its because of the amount of people and combat 500,000 people like wow they bring their freinds 1 million people like wow etc..

I also want to say that huxley is going to be better than wow if it can get lots of people. Click combat is a thing of the past. vangaurd looks like a god sent it down, the graphics are 2 times better than eq2's(and ur char wont always look ugly). Although it looks good and it might be fun it runs on click combat is is like an eq2 expansion (look at it and everything from the charecter style to the combat has eq2 remnants in it). IF huxley and age of conan can get some people in the begginging from mmo hype. Their fresh combat style will get them more people. How many people still play halo 1 and 2 on xbox live?...millions(i am guessing) And imagine a halo 2 type game in an mmo, its Instant cash$$$$$ and people.

I completely agree with the original post, what I think is lacking from many MMORPG’s is frequent massive world events which force the players to make a decision regarding their role in the game.

For example, a plague may infect your base/guild/clan - the player would then have to make a choice: either stay and accept risk of seeing your entire clans destruction (along with your property) from being assaulted by a rival clan while in a weekend state, or choosing to get the hell out of there.

Another example would be for an admin in the gameword to act as a major character, bringing about sometype of violent conflict and the player would then choose to ally himself or not.

Ah, there are so many things that can be done all different concepts that itd hard do decide, for example:

Giving the world its own physics so effects,new uses of skills etc can emerge and also reducing the unnaturalness that comes along with many game worlds,
the highest form of this is give basic actions to manipulate the world around you and let fighting moves, crafting etc arise by combining those basic interactions.

Reversing the role of players and monsters, letting the monsters hunt the players so people have to stick together to survive instead of going out just to senselessly kill monsters that never did anything to you.

Hiring someone from the military or reading tons of book about strategy in order to develop a fighting system truly based on strategic elements, as many games seem to lack understanding how to create strategic complexity.

Making a game where the player has mayn different ways to interact with the world, so he has more diversity and freedom, this includes multipurpose skills,
a "meaningful" diversity of character creation and customization options and things like, if I never iniated attack on some intelligent monster and work on some charismatic skills etc I will be able to become allies with them or atleast the will not atatck me, so I can maybe even become some exclusive trade with some stuff they make or enter a mine thats in their home area, or maybe I am just become the new Gandhi.

Let the player know whats going on, give him more feedback do not hide information to make the atmosphere more Rpg like, when it ends in the player becoming frustrated because he does not know how to best use a skill.
I once bought Master of orion 3 a strategy,space empire building game with many innovative concept,but you just had no grasp at all what the effect of your action was in the end(what use are a bunch of sliders when you do not know how to adjust them to your needs).
So basically give the player a good show on whats happening, let him track color couds that are smell to find an enemy, surround the screen ring and changes its colaor and brightness if a character hear soemthing, let people see think bubbles on Npc heads, give them options to look at automatic recordings to follow the history and the social and economic development while the were away and and and (you can also try to make information a more important factor in battle or give people the option to have spiritual abilities like seeing and talking with ghosts, let them posses you etc)

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makeshiftwings, in response to Penance, wrote: 8 million people would disagree with you. They would say [World of Warcraft] is popular because it's fun.

That argument seems fundamentally flawed to me. Worldwide, there are a lot more people who drive Volkswagens than people who drive Rolls-Royce. Which car is the cooler, in your opinion?