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Comments for the article Polish: Making Your Game Shine
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Polish: Making Your Game Shine
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Good stuff, I'll definately have to look into making effective demos.
It seems the link on the front page (http://gamedev.net/reference/business/features/polish) redirects back to http://gamedev.net/.
Quote:
Original post by twanvl
It seems the link on the front page (http://gamedev.net/reference/business/features/polish) redirects back to http://gamedev.net/.
This is the correct link:
http://www.gamedev.net/reference/business/features/polish/
Is it really necessary to click a link and load a new page after every paragraph? Gamedev really needs to rework their article layout...
Quote:
Original post by q2on
Is it really necessary to click a link and load a new page after every paragraph?
What are you talking about?
Cheers Joe! I enjoyed your previous article and this one too. Lots of insight. It's funny that you sometimes need someone to point out things that are staring you right in the face (like the anecdote about scoring -- popcap not chocolates).
Thanks for the compliments guys. Feedback is always appreciated, consider it your way of repaying me ... that or you could buy my book.
Anyway, don't be afraid to be critical either (Er, for instance I noticed I didn't capitalize Chuzzle... woops- sorry Popcap guys!)
In all honesty, feedback is a great way to repay my work in these articles, so I implore you to make these threads as long as possible. I'll even try to reply to them! Ask questions, be critical, be complimentary, hell, you can even be primary (that's an artist joke).
-Joe
Anyway, don't be afraid to be critical either (Er, for instance I noticed I didn't capitalize Chuzzle... woops- sorry Popcap guys!)
In all honesty, feedback is a great way to repay my work in these articles, so I implore you to make these threads as long as possible. I'll even try to reply to them! Ask questions, be critical, be complimentary, hell, you can even be primary (that's an artist joke).
-Joe
I have only one note, yet it is important for me. Poland is in central Europe. Bot by history and by geographic location.
Quote:
Original post by q2on
Is it really necessary to click a link and load a new page after every paragraph? Gamedev really needs to rework their article layout...
Yes this is very irritating. This article doesn't warrant 7 seperate pages. And yes I'm aware of the 'printable version'.
Before the wall of text comes let me summarize my point:
This man has no business in the gaming industry, he obviously does not have a love for games and it is made quite apparent through his comment: "If I had to pick between having a game with a great demo, but a full version that wasn’t good and a good game with a bad demo, I’d take the good demo every time."
Yes a great demo is something every developer should strive for, fluff is wonderful and does definitely add to the gaming experience, and i hope this quote only made for a dramatic way to get his point across; but if he did not have a very hard time writing this sentence, I hope he seriously reconsiders his position in this industry (i would imagine $ is his main goal here)... I would imagine he is some sort of 'seller/business minded/suit' type and having a good demo would make his life much easier, but its obvious he doesn't care about the end product from this statement.
If I am wrong in what I took to be this man's position on this issue, than I am sincerely sorry, but if I am correct, he, and those like him, are what is wrong with the gaming industry today, and have no business being in it -- what I like to call 'bottomliners' -- from my experience, many of these types are found in the cell phone game industry he mentions Jamdat, PopCap, etc.
Secondly, honestly!! i agree with the guys above, fix your scheme gamedev, this article did not need 7 pages...
In conclusion, i wish i could take back the last 15 minutes and never had read this article...
This man has no business in the gaming industry, he obviously does not have a love for games and it is made quite apparent through his comment: "If I had to pick between having a game with a great demo, but a full version that wasn’t good and a good game with a bad demo, I’d take the good demo every time."
Yes a great demo is something every developer should strive for, fluff is wonderful and does definitely add to the gaming experience, and i hope this quote only made for a dramatic way to get his point across; but if he did not have a very hard time writing this sentence, I hope he seriously reconsiders his position in this industry (i would imagine $ is his main goal here)... I would imagine he is some sort of 'seller/business minded/suit' type and having a good demo would make his life much easier, but its obvious he doesn't care about the end product from this statement.
If I am wrong in what I took to be this man's position on this issue, than I am sincerely sorry, but if I am correct, he, and those like him, are what is wrong with the gaming industry today, and have no business being in it -- what I like to call 'bottomliners' -- from my experience, many of these types are found in the cell phone game industry he mentions Jamdat, PopCap, etc.
Secondly, honestly!! i agree with the guys above, fix your scheme gamedev, this article did not need 7 pages...
In conclusion, i wish i could take back the last 15 minutes and never had read this article...
@TheBlueJester
To each their own, I don't want this to become a flamefest, but this article was dead on.
As much as we'd like to live up to the ideal of "gameplay is everything", in reality it just... isn't. I'm not a suit type, hell I'm a real loudmouth when it comes to innovation and experimentation. But the difference between being a hobbyist developer and a professional is that you understand that presentation is half of the experience. Graphics and sound play just as big of a part in the overall experience as interactivity does, and similarly the demo plays just as big of a part (if not more) in the popularity of the game as reviews and word-of-mouth. Reality is, to stay in business we actually need to sell these things :)
Gameplay doesn't have to suffer just because it's polished. In fact, the added immersion that the polish brings will increase the fun factor tenfold. Remember back in the day how cool Sonic the Hedgehog was because he'd tap his foot if you took too long to move? Or the excellent "spiral" text input scheme used by the console versions of Beyond Good and Evil? Even the smallest thing can add alot, like the little blood-spatter particle effect in the indie game N.
So of course gameplay comes first, if your gameplay isn't polished then who gives a crap if the pictures are purdy. But once your "game" is done, spend a little bit of time making it really shine. It certainly doesn't hurt.
To each their own, I don't want this to become a flamefest, but this article was dead on.
As much as we'd like to live up to the ideal of "gameplay is everything", in reality it just... isn't. I'm not a suit type, hell I'm a real loudmouth when it comes to innovation and experimentation. But the difference between being a hobbyist developer and a professional is that you understand that presentation is half of the experience. Graphics and sound play just as big of a part in the overall experience as interactivity does, and similarly the demo plays just as big of a part (if not more) in the popularity of the game as reviews and word-of-mouth. Reality is, to stay in business we actually need to sell these things :)
Gameplay doesn't have to suffer just because it's polished. In fact, the added immersion that the polish brings will increase the fun factor tenfold. Remember back in the day how cool Sonic the Hedgehog was because he'd tap his foot if you took too long to move? Or the excellent "spiral" text input scheme used by the console versions of Beyond Good and Evil? Even the smallest thing can add alot, like the little blood-spatter particle effect in the indie game N.
So of course gameplay comes first, if your gameplay isn't polished then who gives a crap if the pictures are purdy. But once your "game" is done, spend a little bit of time making it really shine. It certainly doesn't hurt.
Quote:
Original post by TheBlueJester
This man has no business in the gaming industry, he obviously does not have a love for games and it is made quite apparent through his comment: "If I had to pick between having a game with a great demo, but a full version that wasn’t good and a good game with a bad demo, I’d take the good demo every time."
When you're involved in selecting games to support on your portal site like Joe Lieberman is, then his point is extremely valid. The demo is the most important tool you have to sell your game. I'm sure the point Joe was emphasising was the importance of making sure that demo is as great as you can make it (from the perspective of getting people to buy), and not to trade off the time you should be spending on the demo to add further bells and whistles to the main game.
While it's nice to support games purely as an art form, in the end it is a business. As a hobbyist that's looking to get into the indie scene I appreciate the input from people like Joe Lieberman who are more focused on the business side of things, because in the end it's people like him I'd have to impress if I wanted to sell a game through a portal.
That all being said, that was an informative article Joe. I agree with the emphasis on shine being an important selling point, and some of those points (such as the one about scores with trailing zeroes) seem obvious in retrospect but hadn't sunk into my brain.
Will we be seeing any more articles in the future? (No pressure [smile])
@JBourrie:
Believe me, I am not the true idealist when it comes to 'gameplay being everything' although I personally prefer gameplay to pretty graphics (i.e. prefer quake 2 to most of Id's later work.. although i haven't played q4). Presentation does mean everything when it comes to games because, well, its entertainment. But the problem is when the gameplay is affected by the presentation, which a lot of games seem to suffer from now-a-days in one way or another (slow framerate on recommneded specs or consoles even), particularly cell phone games (which the article seems to mention) but also larger games such as Doom 3(imo).
The only reason I speak out this way is because of a recent relation with a company that kept pushing and pushing for more fluff and in the end, it made the title out of budget, out of time, and gameplay slightly worse in some of the less polished areas. The suits dont seem to understand that with a schedule for, particularly, a non-AAA title (the developer doesn't necessarily decide the deadline), the more fluff you add, the less polish the game recieves, the worse it ends up looking and playing. The idea is great in a schedule-less world, but the end impact is far greater.
Again, i will say, a great demo is key, honestly the un-official half-life demo got me to buy half-life way back.. without that, i may never have bought it. So he has a good point with regards to the demo, but what is sacrificed in getting there (as well as for the fluff) he has no idea about. I imagine he is refering to his experience with cellphone games (timers, same game w/ a point cap etc), this causes problems for them too due to the totally tight schedule on a lot of skus. (again to raise profit)
Lastly, the bit about huge scores is somewhat inaccurate, i have ran into similar problems before with this idea 'oh big numbers big numbers'. Once they reach a certain point, they dont mean anything to the player and loose all desired effect, and even worse, when they aren't sure how to compare or rate themselves to their friends.
Im in a bit of a rush to get out, so this probably is a bit all over the place. but i hope you get the jist, by original post was a bit hot-headed, but honestly people like who i outlined in this industry (i have met many) really tick me off.
Believe me, I am not the true idealist when it comes to 'gameplay being everything' although I personally prefer gameplay to pretty graphics (i.e. prefer quake 2 to most of Id's later work.. although i haven't played q4). Presentation does mean everything when it comes to games because, well, its entertainment. But the problem is when the gameplay is affected by the presentation, which a lot of games seem to suffer from now-a-days in one way or another (slow framerate on recommneded specs or consoles even), particularly cell phone games (which the article seems to mention) but also larger games such as Doom 3(imo).
The only reason I speak out this way is because of a recent relation with a company that kept pushing and pushing for more fluff and in the end, it made the title out of budget, out of time, and gameplay slightly worse in some of the less polished areas. The suits dont seem to understand that with a schedule for, particularly, a non-AAA title (the developer doesn't necessarily decide the deadline), the more fluff you add, the less polish the game recieves, the worse it ends up looking and playing. The idea is great in a schedule-less world, but the end impact is far greater.
Again, i will say, a great demo is key, honestly the un-official half-life demo got me to buy half-life way back.. without that, i may never have bought it. So he has a good point with regards to the demo, but what is sacrificed in getting there (as well as for the fluff) he has no idea about. I imagine he is refering to his experience with cellphone games (timers, same game w/ a point cap etc), this causes problems for them too due to the totally tight schedule on a lot of skus. (again to raise profit)
Lastly, the bit about huge scores is somewhat inaccurate, i have ran into similar problems before with this idea 'oh big numbers big numbers'. Once they reach a certain point, they dont mean anything to the player and loose all desired effect, and even worse, when they aren't sure how to compare or rate themselves to their friends.
Im in a bit of a rush to get out, so this probably is a bit all over the place. but i hope you get the jist, by original post was a bit hot-headed, but honestly people like who i outlined in this industry (i have met many) really tick me off.
Damn those suit wearing assholes!
No seriously. Damn them all. :)
This is the kind of feedback I asked for, and thank you to Mr. Jester and his angry letter for giving me something to talk about - Honestly, nothing you say here can make me angry or think less of you, though I can't promise the same level of respect from everyone else.
Lets take a brief moment and answer and analyze this: Jester may want his 15 minutes back because my article ticked him so, but I maintain that I am glad I ticked him so. In the end you're gonna be stuck remembering what I said, and frankly it will help you and influence your decisions... I hope
Let me first put to rest the fear that I A) wear a suit. B) am in it for the $ only. C) do not love games.
A) I work from home. I wrote most of that article in nothing but my boxxers. I don't think you needed to know that, but there you have it. I may be an independent contractor to a corporate business, but please do note that I am an INDEPENDENT contractor ;-)
B) Er, money is nice... but I don't get paid enough to not understand anything about what I do. I'll leave that to the guys down at Sony (Stupid PS3- yeah, I'm talking to you Sony!) - sorry to any PS fanboys out there, the PS3 is a business blunder, but otherwise I really like Sony. Anyway, I am where I am through pure skill and determination.
C) Haha, oh man, I should have my wife reply to this. Let me paint the picture of my life. I played videogames every day since I got my NES at age 6 (yeah I am pretty young still). I work for 8 hours on games or game related items every day. When I am done with work I kick back and relax... by playing more games. I'm literally a walking game encyclopedia, and sometimes it scares me. For instance I stumbled across someone who resurrected an old 2AM game, Chain of Command. It was nice to see one of the old 2AM games back on the market, of sorts... and if you don't know who 2AM was I don't think YOU love games as much as I do. Ok ok, maybe you do.. but yeah, my wife considers games a rival to her affection and gets rather uppity about once a week that I have spent too much time with them and not enough time with her; and she's always right. (There's another romance lesson)
Ok so with the concerns out of the way, maybe, there were some constructive items in there that need replying-to.
I get Jester's main argument a lot, that you can't say what I said and still maintain the facade of game-lover. The real key here is asking yourself "Why do I make games" and picking ONE and only ONE reason why. There are a lot of answers, ranging from "Money." to "Sharing my creation with others so I can bring them joy" and on down the line. This article is only for those who are answering "Money" in some sense or another. If you aren't making your game with profit as your primary motive - which is fine by me - then you shouldn't be worried about how well it will sell; and therefore not concerned with how much shine the game has.
Second item: Scores. I think Jester is right, there is a limit to how much adding large scores can help. In competitive games it may, in fact, confuse people. In general I was referring to single player games, where you aren't competing with yourself. There's probably a backwards bend in this idea. Getting 1 point per kill is too low. 100 is better. 10,000,000 is just too confusing. Spot on Jester- there's a limit to everything :)
Finally: Cell phone games. Actually this is the one and ONLY field of games I have no experience in. Weird, huh? I've worked with consoles, retail, digital download, casual games, flash games, the gamut, except cell games. I didn't even mention Jamdat - and Popcap began their life in the digital download PC market- only recently moving to cell products as far as I know. Most of the new players in the cell market were involved in the casual game revolution, so that is probably why you see so many similarities.
I think a general disjoint ideal here is Jester is focusing on applying my article to a AAA title, or AAA production schedule. I have the utmost hope for everyone who reads the Gamedev articles, but I do make the rather rude assumption NOBODY reading this article is making a AAA game that will ever see the light of day... and if they are they work in a place where they couldn't change things anyway.
Rather, I assume you're an independent developer trying to make it on your own with little or no help in terms of budget, funding, OR having big brass interfering with your grand plan by making ridiculous demands about how large the main character's breasts should be. When you have no retail schedule to follow, no worries about taking an extra month... well, things are different.
I have a unique perspective, I am finding. I've been on all sides of the coin, from development to publishing. The problem is both sides suck horribly at articulating their problems to one another - or maybe its they suck at listening.
Finally: Yes, another article will come along soon :) Any suggestions on topic?
No seriously. Damn them all. :)
This is the kind of feedback I asked for, and thank you to Mr. Jester and his angry letter for giving me something to talk about - Honestly, nothing you say here can make me angry or think less of you, though I can't promise the same level of respect from everyone else.
Lets take a brief moment and answer and analyze this: Jester may want his 15 minutes back because my article ticked him so, but I maintain that I am glad I ticked him so. In the end you're gonna be stuck remembering what I said, and frankly it will help you and influence your decisions... I hope
Let me first put to rest the fear that I A) wear a suit. B) am in it for the $ only. C) do not love games.
A) I work from home. I wrote most of that article in nothing but my boxxers. I don't think you needed to know that, but there you have it. I may be an independent contractor to a corporate business, but please do note that I am an INDEPENDENT contractor ;-)
B) Er, money is nice... but I don't get paid enough to not understand anything about what I do. I'll leave that to the guys down at Sony (Stupid PS3- yeah, I'm talking to you Sony!) - sorry to any PS fanboys out there, the PS3 is a business blunder, but otherwise I really like Sony. Anyway, I am where I am through pure skill and determination.
C) Haha, oh man, I should have my wife reply to this. Let me paint the picture of my life. I played videogames every day since I got my NES at age 6 (yeah I am pretty young still). I work for 8 hours on games or game related items every day. When I am done with work I kick back and relax... by playing more games. I'm literally a walking game encyclopedia, and sometimes it scares me. For instance I stumbled across someone who resurrected an old 2AM game, Chain of Command. It was nice to see one of the old 2AM games back on the market, of sorts... and if you don't know who 2AM was I don't think YOU love games as much as I do. Ok ok, maybe you do.. but yeah, my wife considers games a rival to her affection and gets rather uppity about once a week that I have spent too much time with them and not enough time with her; and she's always right. (There's another romance lesson)
Ok so with the concerns out of the way, maybe, there were some constructive items in there that need replying-to.
I get Jester's main argument a lot, that you can't say what I said and still maintain the facade of game-lover. The real key here is asking yourself "Why do I make games" and picking ONE and only ONE reason why. There are a lot of answers, ranging from "Money." to "Sharing my creation with others so I can bring them joy" and on down the line. This article is only for those who are answering "Money" in some sense or another. If you aren't making your game with profit as your primary motive - which is fine by me - then you shouldn't be worried about how well it will sell; and therefore not concerned with how much shine the game has.
Second item: Scores. I think Jester is right, there is a limit to how much adding large scores can help. In competitive games it may, in fact, confuse people. In general I was referring to single player games, where you aren't competing with yourself. There's probably a backwards bend in this idea. Getting 1 point per kill is too low. 100 is better. 10,000,000 is just too confusing. Spot on Jester- there's a limit to everything :)
Finally: Cell phone games. Actually this is the one and ONLY field of games I have no experience in. Weird, huh? I've worked with consoles, retail, digital download, casual games, flash games, the gamut, except cell games. I didn't even mention Jamdat - and Popcap began their life in the digital download PC market- only recently moving to cell products as far as I know. Most of the new players in the cell market were involved in the casual game revolution, so that is probably why you see so many similarities.
I think a general disjoint ideal here is Jester is focusing on applying my article to a AAA title, or AAA production schedule. I have the utmost hope for everyone who reads the Gamedev articles, but I do make the rather rude assumption NOBODY reading this article is making a AAA game that will ever see the light of day... and if they are they work in a place where they couldn't change things anyway.
Rather, I assume you're an independent developer trying to make it on your own with little or no help in terms of budget, funding, OR having big brass interfering with your grand plan by making ridiculous demands about how large the main character's breasts should be. When you have no retail schedule to follow, no worries about taking an extra month... well, things are different.
I have a unique perspective, I am finding. I've been on all sides of the coin, from development to publishing. The problem is both sides suck horribly at articulating their problems to one another - or maybe its they suck at listening.
Finally: Yes, another article will come along soon :) Any suggestions on topic?
Out of curiosity, vgsmart, roughly what kind of profit do your more popular games bring in, for you and the developer?
And nice article, again.
And nice article, again.
Well skit, I cant really say figures like sales or profit; and I assume by "you" you meant Arcadetown.
As far as overall, big hit games are doing millions in profit. What % of the marketplace do we hold? Not enough in my opinion! I'll say this: We (ArcadeTown) are big enough that you don't want to ignore us and not big enough that you'd be happy with your game only on our site.
Sorta an odd position to be in, actually, as most 'portals' that are left out there are either huge or nothing.
-Joe
As far as overall, big hit games are doing millions in profit. What % of the marketplace do we hold? Not enough in my opinion! I'll say this: We (ArcadeTown) are big enough that you don't want to ignore us and not big enough that you'd be happy with your game only on our site.
Sorta an odd position to be in, actually, as most 'portals' that are left out there are either huge or nothing.
-Joe
Great article with excellent advice, was a good read [smile]
Quote:
Finally: Yes, another article will come along soon :) Any suggestions on topic?
If possible I'd like to see some indie developer oriented tips on marketing, such as choosing a good market segment, identity and branding, sensible advertising or anything else you'd like to cover.
Thanks again for the articles.
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