Full Sail: Is it worth it? (Please help!)

One more thing, I've always thought of myself as a very creative person. Since childhood I've always thought up ways to improve a game, or even idea's for new games! Is there a position in the game industry that stands out from the rest as most rewarding for being really creative?

The general consensus within the games industry is that applicants from Full Sail are usually pretty useless, and this certainly corresponds with what we've seen at our company. There are always exceptions of course, so individuals who have been / are going there need not flame me.

My recommendation - get a decent computer science degree, if you want to do programming, or computer graphics / animation to be an artist / animator. Designer is trickier as they come from so many varied walks of life, but personally I'd like to see some ergonomics or creative writing, something like that. In all cases you're likely to need to produce games content in your own time.

Generally designers usually have the most creative input in the project.

"The general consensus within the games industry is that applicants from Full Sail are usually pretty useless" - SunTzu

Not flaming you or anything but do you have any thing that shows this consensus? And what makes a Full Sail student "useless" exactly, just curious.


I am currently a Full Sail student, cmconstantine, I am actually about to start my Historical Archetypes and Mythology class, so excuse me if my replies seem rushed. If you have any other questions I can try and answer them for you.

"Is it at all practical for an inexperienced programmer to pass the courses?"

I actually started here without any programming knowledge at all and was able to pass all my classes so far, however, having no programming knowledge will make this school more difficult to get through. There are also many people in this school you have no prior programming knowledge (most of the students in my class have never programmmed in C++).

"Is/Was the money invested worth going to Full Sail?

This question is more reserved for a student who has graduated but I'll bite anyway. I am only in my 5th or 6th month of the program but, so far, I love this school and it was worth the money.

"Also, other threads I have looked into suggested not taking the game development degree route due to it limiting you to only game companies whereas a Computer Science degree would allow more versatility(just incase)."

There are students who have graduated from this school and have started working at non-game developent software companies.

class has just started! see ya.

Thank you SunTzu and Switch0025. I really appreciate your responses!

In regards to SunTzu's post I've heard alot of similar answers to yours in threads I have searched from here. The common replies have been that the only purpose of a degree is to show an employer that you can finish something from start to finish. With what you have said SunTzu would that mean that the company you work for could care less if the job seeker graduated from Full Sail(or any game development school for that matter) or not? This would further justify those threads, but considering those threads were old(back in 2003) I didn't know if things have changed since then...

Also, Switch0025, it's great to hear from a current student of Full Sail! I have no problems with the school from what I've seen, but would like to know what your reasons for attending Full Sail are? It seems most current students highly recommend Full Sail, but for reasons that don't involve why it's more beneficial than other routes. Alot of what I've read from people already in the game industry recommend not going to a game development school. The main reason stated is that it doesn't make you any more favorable. Although as I said in regards to SunTzu's post the references I have used are outdated(2003) so things may have changed since then...

I've yet to find out if this is still current, and would greatly appreciate a follow up on what IS current. I would hate to spend $65,000(+living expenses) just to find out the employer doesnt care if it's a game development degree or not...

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated! Thanks again!

Guildhall, Digi-pen are no more or less useful for a future in the game industry than a CS degree. The problem is that they have a high ratio of shitty grads versus those that work hard. So is just about any CS program I've heard of. This unfortunately means some studios blacklist some of these types of schools. As one of the Fullsail grads that busted my ass the entire time, I'm now employed full time at Pandemic, and am loving it. Meanwhile there were a number of classmates in the associates program(not in the bachelors when I went through) that did the minimum to get through. Doing the minimum will not get you into the industry.

The most important aspect of your school of choice is that you bust your ass and do the best you can. When you graduate you need to have an impressive demo or project that shows as clearly as possible your skill and desire in your area of choice(AI, Graphics, etc). Having that will trump whatever school is listed on your resume. My FPS bot project(in my sig) essentially got me the job I have now. It demonstrates passion, drive, and long term commitment in your preferred area to have a large-ish scale project to show and talk about. Just about my entire interview process was talking about it.

You might want to read all the articles and comments on this page.

This article in particular.

Interesting quote:

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I too graduated from Full Sail. I was in the class with Gabriel Cantres, the author of the "Fourteen Months at Full Sail" articles. Let me be as clear as possible : FULL SAIL IS NOT WORTH THE MONEY. Before going to Full Sail I had a degree in Computer Information Systems and worked in the IT industry for 4 years. The economy was taking a dive and many lay offs were happening. I had always wanted to develop games and that is why I got into computers in the first place. So I looked into Full Sail and thought they would teach me game development. This is one of the worst mistakes of my life. I wish I was being melodramatic, but I'm not. Something Full Sail does not tell you in the quick tours is that after six months, if you want to quit, you still owe the FULL tutition. One of my fellow classmates realized that Full Sail was not for him. He too had a degree from another university, but by the time he was fed up enough to leave it was past the six month mark. So he owed the entire tutition. Even if he had left. Another fact that Full Sail will not tell you up front is that the game industry pays badly. There is all this talk about the game industry only wants people who are passionate about games. What they mean is people who are willing to work for half as much pay as programmers outside the game industry while working twice the hours. Make sure to look at the Game Developer Annual Salary survey and then look at a website like salary.com. Compare what programmers make in the game industry and outside of it. Now I'm not saying that working in the game industry is bad. My brother is currently a developer in a Chicago based company. What I am saying is that a degree from Full Sail does not give you the opportunity to move out of the game industry. If you have a computer science degree from a major university you have the option of working in or out of the game industry. With a Full Sail degree your only option is the game industry. That is if you can get a job in the game industry at all. A Full Sail degree DOES NOT get you the job or sometimes even a foot in the door. When I graduated, Full Sail did not get me interviews and did not seem to have a clue how to. Sometimes I see people bad mouthing Full Sail and you get the sense that the writer did not apply themselves or do well at the school. After reading those kind of comments I always wonder if it was Full Sail or their lack of effort. I am not one of those students. I excelled while I was a Full Sail and my teams final project was accepted into the 2003 Student Showcase for the Independent Games Festival (www.igf.com) at the annual Game Developer Conference in California. Out of 64 student projects from around the world (some were from Europe) 10 were choosen and our project was one of them. Even after spending a week in California showing my game to hundreds of people from around the game industry, I still had trouble finding a job. Eventually I returned to the regular IT industry. The whole experience has left me regretfull and saddled with student loans that will take me another 10 - 15 years to pay off. Currently I am a application developer for Bank of America. I have friends who are still in the game industry and they say the pay is low and the hours are too long. I work 40 hours a week and get paid twice as much as my friends who are still in the industry. I'm not saying this to brag, but to illustrate that the game industry requires you to live and breath your job, for little pay. For people who are looking to go to Full Sail : If you want to be a game programmer, go to a real university and get a degree in Computer Science. As you study if you still want to do games focus your study toward Computer Graphics. If you want to be a game designer, start reading and studying about games. Go to school and study history and writing and art. Pick up the book "Rules of Play", it is an excellent book. It costs about $60, but that is worth it compared to $70,000 in loans (that is full sail tuition plus the loans needed for living expenses). I hope these words helped those who read it. Full Sail is not a way into the game industry. Full Sail is a waste of time and money.

I'm a 23 year old graduate of Digipen, which is a similar program to what full-sail offers. From what I've heard from Full-sail grads, and my own experiences at Digipen I would say that, of the two, Digipen offers more foundation in computer science and operates at a less accelerated pace -- Unless its changed, the typcial Digipen BS program degree is 4 years, while Fullsail pushes for 3. As other's will no doubt say, neither program is as theory/fundamentals based as a traditional, university CS degree -- Though, through my experience, most detractors do underestimate the amount of theory/fundamental learning that does indeed take place, at least in the case of Digipen. I believe that this stereo-type comes, in part, because there are those graduates of these programs who did not see the fundamentals/theory they learned as usefull or relevant and did not take this information to heart.


There are prejudices both for and against graduates of Game-Programming courses like Digipen, Fullsail, Guildhall, etc. Some studios specifically seek these grads, other studios literally black-list them. It has a lot to do with corporate culture and previous experiences with grads from these programs, both good and bad. I've heard of responses ranging from "We love Digipen, we're always looking to hire them when we can get ahold of one." to "We'll never hire a(nother) Digipen grad!" to "It only matters what you can show us." to even "It doesn't matter where you come from, because we're going to have to completely re-train you anyhow." The only common thread I've heard rumblings of, is to absolutely avoid ITT/Devry, and for tuition that matches either Digipen/full-sail, or a high-quality university's tuition, why wouldn't you?

I presume that you're located in or near Florida since that's the location of the other schools you've looked at, which is presumably the reason you've selected Fullsail over Digipen, Guildhall, or other Game Degree offerings. Ignoring the traditional University route for a moment, you would do well to consider these and other options. While it can be an important factor (closeness to family and friends) geography should not be the primary deciding factor in selecting your route to higher education.

You might well consider a dual-degree. Digipen, for instance, now offers a Master's Degree in game development, which is largely aimed at post-graduate students from Universities. For the cost of a 4 year degree from either Digipen or Fullsail, you could easily afford a 4 year degree from a University, followed by a year or two pursuing an MS in Game Development from Digipen. Those Digipen grads who have also graduated from University are always extremely sought-after, and typically recieve better offers from larger, more established studios.

There certainly are a few realities to be addressed in regards to the game industry and what a game degree is worth outside of it. Firstly, what you've heard here about game industry hours/salary is largely true -- particularly of entry-level positions. Game industry workers are often expected to work longer hours than their non-game counterparts, for far less salary. Its not uncommon for an average entry-level programmer to pull in 35,000-45,000 per year while working 50+ hours per week in the game industry, while outside the industry you can generally expect to be earning 45,000-60,000 for the same experience, and only working 40 hours a week. Often times, the benefits package is also better outside the game industry.

My experience has been that non-game gigs have offered 25% more than game gigs. The job I'm working currently pays nearly double the lowest offer I recieved from a game studio. As you might suspect, I'm working outside the game industry currently, despite my Digipen degree. Personally, I have not yet found my Digipen degree to be a detriment to my job-seeking efforts outside the games industry, but I do know of other's who have had difficulty making that transition.

On the other hand, a well-educated and driven game graduate can find financial success even in the games industry. A buddy of mine from Digipen took a job at Bungie fresh out of school for 66,000 per year. While he was increadibly smart and had become an excelent programmer, he had no university experience nor had he even programmed before coming to digipen. He proved his worth by beating out ~200 other applicants, including game industry veterans, for the position. The process included several rounds of interviews, white-board coding, problem solving, and timed, take-home programming evercises.


Ultimately, you, and only you, are the one who decides what you get out of your higher education. It is an unfortunate reality that there are those who will look down on a game degree, no matter how good you are, but it is their loss if they did not take the time to properly evaluate you as a candidate. If you really are worth your salt as a developer, you will have no problem finding work elsewhere, and can take solice in the fact that you will be working for one of their competitors.

Education is not a means to an end, it is a means to a beginning. Your education should neither begin nor end with your college career, it is a life-long process. To be truly good at anything, particularly any kind of engineering, you should always strive to understand both new and old techniques, to hone your understanding of things you believe you know, to always be looking for a better solution. "Done" is very rarely as good as it should be; Edison didn't stop with his first bulb, I doubt that Bach never revised his musical pieces. They were enthrawled by their persuits, reveling in the details and minutia of the task at hand, as it provided deeper understanding and ultimately the means to create something better.

No matter where you go, you must approach it as an opportunity to gain knowlege and to learn how to learn. It is not simply a quest for a magical piece of paper which proves your competancy in some way, and which is supposed to open many doors unatainable by mere mortals. Education is a weapon you wield in order to tackle new and bigger challenges, gaining more knowlege and understanding. A dragon riden into battle against new and more fierce dragons. Everything you have learned in life up to this point has served as foundation for something else you've learned. Only a fool thinks this should change once they've graduated from college. Only a fool thinks thinks that any end to learning other than death is acceptable.

To refrain from further hyperbole, what this means in practical terms is that you are the one who can, and must, improve and expand upon his formal education, no matter the source. If you take up University, you would do well to study hard and to apply your knowlege in an area that interests you (programing games, for instance). If you take up a Game Degree, you would do equally well to recognize the importance of fundamentals, taking special care of the opportunity to learn them formally, and to take it upon yourself to fill the gaps that may exist in the curiculum. The most successful grads of any program are those that take time to pursue the mastery of their craft. They are the ones who excel and are not happy with simply getting by.

[Edited by - ravyne2001 on April 24, 2007 6:42:57 PM]

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Not flaming you or anything but do you have any thing that shows this consensus?

No problem, I can quite understand your curiosity. The Chaos Engine is a games industry forum (you need to be able to prove you're in the industry to get into the private members area - and if anyone here is a professional games developer and not a member yet, I strongly encourage you to join). There was a thread about CVs in the private forum very recently, here are some choice quotes about Full Sail:

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Oh I interviewed one guy from (Full Sail) once who seemed to know his stuff. Every other one couldn't make it through the phone screen (e.g. "do you know basic trig" and "have you ever made a functioning program").

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yeah we also recently got flooded with full sail resumes. (...) ugh... wow... just ... these people actually graduated from a college? wtf? What are they teaching these kids??

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(Full Sail) don't seem to teach things that are actually relevant to game development. The only candidates I've seen from there are "programmers," but their abilities in programming leave a lot to be desired. By that I mean that they don't know how to develop software.

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(Full Sail is) a place where you shell out two years and $20,000+ for the privilege of having game studio hiring managers round-file your resume.

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Full Sail has been hit and miss. They seem to put out both really good people and really bad people. I think it's more the quality of the student than the quality of the education with them, which isn't that far off from most other places.

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We;ve got a couple juniors from there, and the consensus was, it's a good starting point, but you've really got to go do the shit on your own on the side to make it worth while, which isn't easy if you've got to work etc to pay for it...

And on game development schools in general...

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at least mine was (Art Insitute) But i find these courses leave students rather ill equipped to find work after they graduate. I cant comment on Full Sail but in terms of the 2 year course i took there were quite alot of shortcomings that lead to many of my classmates not to graduate and if they did they found it really hard afterwards looking for work.

All of which doesn't paint a very pretty picture. Sorry, but there it is.

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With what you have said SunTzu would that mean that the company you work for could care less if the job seeker graduated from Full Sail(or any game development school for that matter) or not?

I think if you start something you should finish it. I do not claim that Full Sail has no value whatsoever, and I am sure you can come out of there hireable if you work hard and in the right way (as some of the quotes above do mention). In general, nowadays you do need a degree to get a job in computer games - as a programmer anyway - but I would personally recommend getting a well-rounded Computer Science degree. As well as IMO being more desirable even within games, it will be much more valuable if you can't (or choose not to) get a job in games.

This is just my personal opinion, other peoples' may vary, and I specifically can't comment on art or design roles with any first-hand knowledge as I'm a programmer by trade myself. Also I have no first-hand experience of Full Sail itself, whereas at least some other people in this thread do. So you will have to make your own mind up; but my own thoughts on the matter are pretty clear.

Does all types of specialized programming degrees apply to the things above? I am starting computer graphic science next year at uni.

I believe its more of what you know then where you've come from.

I am taking CS courses in Java (ugh) but I program tons in my spare time. Whats neat is I program in C++, but I'm learning Java and Scheme (we have occasional Scheme/LISP projects).

Hi,

Just wanted to share my personal insight. Previously I worked as the founding programmer of the NextGen Tools department at Pandemic Studios.

While working in that role I had the opportunity to fill my department with other programmers, both Junior and Senior. Part of this job included interviewing the individuals, as well as grading their programming tests, etc...This is what I know from personal experience.

1. All of the CS Majors I interviewed from a 4-year university passed the programming test, but not necessarily their interview.

2. The majority of candidates from Full Sail failed their programming test, and frequently their interview. (though in general, they were discarded due to their programming test)

3. Candidates from DigiPen, did, on average, better on programming tests and interviews than people from Full Sail.

My advice: Get a 4-year degree from a good state university or college.

Why?: You'll have a more solid background in computer science, mathematics, physics, chemistry, etc...making you both more capable as a game developer, and also more capable as a programmer, in general. If you decide half way through your degree in Computer Science that it's not the thing for you, you'll have the majority of your general education and core classes out of the way, and you can easily switch to another program (major), with little or no consequences. You will have a difficult time switching from Full Sail to a 4-year university should you change your mind about your intended career.

Also, CompSci programs tend to be a lot more independent and less teamwork oriented. While Full Sail and other Game Dev schools tout themselves as replicating a working environment by having people work in groups, etc...this isnt ideal in a learning environment as it means people often escape learning by hanging on the coat-tails of their class mates.

And Finally, a good 2 or 4-year state school is usually cheaper than a trade school such as DigiPen or Full Sail. A good 4-year college will charge around $3-8k per semester in tuition, books, etc...This means that on the low end you're looking at ~ $24k for a BSc. in Computer Science. On the high end, you're looking at around ~$64k, which is still less than many Game Dev Schools.

On average, you're looking at $30-40k for a 4-year degree. This can then be advanced to a Master's degree, etc...keeping your options open for further education, etc...

I hope this information was useful.

Cheers!

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Original post by SunTzu Quote: Not flaming you or anything but do you have any thing that shows this consensus? No problem, I can quite understand your curiosity. The Chaos Engine is a games industry forum (you need to be able to prove you're in the industry to get into the private members area - and if anyone here is a professional games developer and not a member yet, I strongly encourage you to join).

Signed up last week, still trying to get in :(

"I have no problems with the school from what I've seen, but would like to know what your reasons for attending Full Sail are? It seems most current students highly recommend Full Sail, but for reasons that don't involve why it's more beneficial than other routes." -cmconstantine

I joined FS because of what I heard from current students was very good. I also joined because current students said the program was hard to get through because of the accelerated pace (I figured the extra difficulty would help prepare me for the industry). They also have a board of game developers that help them decide on the curriculum, among other things. I can't say whether or not it is actually better then other routes because I haven't taken those other routes and game developers in general seem varied in how they got into the industry, although as others have said, you pretty much need a degree now.

"All of which doesn't paint a very pretty picture. Sorry, but there it is." - SunTzu

No need to be sorry; I'm glad you could give up some information on the subject. I asked because opinions on FS seem to be relegated to "I have a friend who failed and he said..." or "There was a website that said...". It can be hard to come by the actual opinions of people who have to hire the game developers.

WOW, thank you everyone! I definetely appreciate this and think the replies have helped me a ton towards making my decision!

Another question came to my mind throughout today...It being stated by SunTzu responding to my question about the most creative position, what would be the smartest way to go about becoming a designer?

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Original post by cmconstantine WOW, thank you everyone! I definetely appreciate this and think the replies have helped me a ton towards making my decision! Another question came to my mind throughout today...It being stated by SunTzu responding to my question about the most creative position, what would be the smartest way to go about becoming a designer?

The smartest way would be to check out game dev sites' job postings such as:

GDNet Jobs
Gamasutra Design Jobs

..and look for what skills they require from their Designer candidates.

In general, however, a degree in History or Literature doesn't hurt, as it gives you a pool of resources from which to draw inspiration in your designs.

As well, volunteering or getting a job working for a gaming magazine doing reviews/previews gives you exposure to a LOT of games, and gives you an opportunity to develop opinions about good/bad design features.

Additionally, taking your favorite genre of game and getting a hold of one of the freely available world builders never hurts. You can create multiple levels/mods based around your favorite games to be used as a design portfolio.

Finally, game companies prefer designers to have a degree of either art or programming skills in addition to their design skills. So learning a free modeling package such as Maya PLE would be beneficial, as well as learning a scripting or easy programming language such as Lua, Python, or C#.

All of the above combined, plus making sure you meet some additional items listed on job postings, should be more than enough to get you an interview.

Cheers!

[Edited by - jwalsh on April 24, 2007 6:02:57 PM]

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[Edited by - GamerYZ on September 18, 2007 6:13:01 PM]

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Original post by GamerYZ I am a Full Sail grad from about 7 months ago, and I, as well as many of my classmates are already working in the industry [no comma necessary] such as Midway, EA, Volition, SCEA, and countless others. After I graduated [no comma necessary] I had an interview with a company where I did so well [no comma necessary] they actually let me pick which team(within the company) I wanted to join. I can tell you for a fact that majority of the people that have been through the school, but saying bad things about it, are the people that had have failed. They are just trying to somehow justify their own failures. Full Sail is not for the weak. Many people goto go to that school thinking how cool it would be to make videogames video games, but they wasn't weren't ready for the hardship. Just think, at Full Sail we learn 4 years of knowledge in less than 2! (This is bullshit, you learn 2 years in 2. You don't take 1/2 the general education courses, such as English, which are required at a 4-year) It's true that they won't teach you everything, but if you think you can handle the work load from the school, and go that extra mile to do everything the best that you can, and learn as much as you can, I'm sure you won't regret a school such as Full Sail.

I wouldn't normally pick apart someone's post like that, but in a thread demonstrating why your school is such a great school, I believe it is warranted.

Cheers!

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[Edited by - GamerYZ on September 18, 2007 6:34:39 PM]

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Original post by GamerYZ Lol, I'm sorry, I didn't know we were in an English class. Good contribution to the thead, if I may add. Anyways, I'm making a great living coming outta that school, can you tell me why I shouldn't praise it??

Oh no, please, continue to praise it. Just be aware that when you make a claim about the quality of your school, filled with spelling and grammatical errors, that it actually reflects poorly on the quality of the school.

As well, one must assume that if you're a designer and/or programmer you do a significant amount of writing. And I would hope that your writing on here doesn't necessarily reflect your writing at work.

I honestly wasn't attempting to be rude. I was merely attempting to illustrate that you DO, in fact, sacrifice some education when attending a trade school such as DigiPen or Full Sail. Anyone who can honestly claim they learned 4 full years of University level knowledge in 2 years is either extremely full of themselves, or they've been attending too many seminars with special cool-aid at the university center.