Cultural misunderstandings and business

I can't stand pretentiousness. If someone doesn't want to do business with me because I offended some silly archaic custom unintentionally, then that's their loss. There are plenty of other people to do business with in this world.

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Original post by capn_midnight Quote: Frequent business traveler Jerry Galiger, of Winston-Salem, N.C., committed a faux pas without saying a word. During his first meeting in France with his United Kingdom-based company, he drank red wine, then switched to white. "From the expressions of the group, you would have thought I exposed myself," says Galiger, whose company makes storage systems. "I later found out you never go to a white after a red, because you can't enjoy the bouquet of the white after you've drunk a red." I really feel for the guy; it really is one of those nightmare business situations "OMG, I wore a blue tie instead of a red tie, what do I do?"

USA Today has been known to embellish and exaggerate in order to make a story more interesting, and they seem to be doing that right now. The proscription of drinking red wine before white wine is venerable but overly rigid and is frequently ignored, in the US and in France. Moreover, unless the "storage systems" his company made were wine vats, I find it very unlikely that "The Group" gave much of a damn, even if they didn't agree with the practice. More likely, some sophomoric wine twit who happened to be in the group rolled his eyes at it, and the experience grew in the guy's memory.

There's this weird thing that happens in intercultural relations, where everyone assumes that their own culture is the lowest one on the totem pole, that everyone else's rituals and mores are sacrosanct. Juicy anecdotes like this are passed around repeatedly, reinforcing the confirmation bias. Expert tip: Most aspects of politeness--deference, respect, cordiality--are universal. Get those right, and few people will care where you stick your chopsticks.

Possibly. Could also be complete cobblers. Could be a story blown out of proportion to make for a cliche article. Then who's the culturally intolerant jackass in that case.

Anyway, this is one example. You as you say, wouldn't make a fuss, but you are not representative of the american population either (That reminds me of Top Gear doing a road trip in America). These sorts of stories are just the usual 'we're better than them' kind of crap. The jackass you have for president doesn't really help your cause.

My mother is pretty conservative, I'm the complete opposite. I don't know anyone who would be offended by a slip up like that. Maybe take the piss and make a joke about it. What's wrong with respecting food anyway. As you know, he was in France after all, food is quasi religious.

Am I the only one who finds it ironic that an article about respecting others cultures when doing business abroad manages to make their own faux pas by continually referring to this country as "England". Last time I looked it was the UK, or Britain.

Although being Scottish its one thing that really narks me and I tend to notice it pretty quickly...

I'll make another one. A american news media talking about culture is like a village idiot discussing quantum physics. He has no effin' clue.

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I really can't see how he, in particular, could have avoided this situation.

Do your homework. [grin]
A couple of years ago, I had a part-time job at an airline. You'd be surprised at the amounts of reference material they had access to on local customs, greetings, tact, taboos and everything else you might want to know when visiting another country. I could look up in which countries it was considered polite to take off your shoes when entering someone's apartment, when to shake hands, or use any of a number of other greetings, how business meetings tended to work and so on. It's not like no one have ever encountered these problems before.

Still, you obviously can't avoid a faux pas here and there. And on the whole, in most cases, people tend to be tolerant about it. (After all, he's just a foreigner, what does he know? [lol])

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From this article it appears that in regards to interpersonal interaction, the roles are reversed.

Does it?
I could name a few things that would seem just as impolite to some Americans. One that comes to mind would be discussions of politics. Trying to do that at the dinner table can freak out a surprising number of Americans.
I think it'd be more accurate to say that everyone have their funny little ways, and they get shocked/offended when foreigners don't behave the same way.

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Couldn't it be considered just as culturally unaware to take offense at such faux pas? I don't think one can honestly expect an outsider to research and understand another country's cultural peculiarities with 100% accuracy and retention.

But can you expect people to correctly judge what is cultural differences, and what isn't? Just like the American in question didn't know that they cared so much about wine, they might not have known that some people don't give a damn about wine.
What if he'd headbutted one of them? Should they assume that "That's probably just a friendly greeting where he comes from"? [lol]
Of course you expect cultural differences and misunderstandings. But you also expect some things to remain the same, and if they aren't, you get surprised. (Or you assume that it's more than just a cultural difference)

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However, a good friend's recounting of his time studying in Denmark seemed to reinforce a lower tolerance for cultural misunderstandings there than here. Perhaps it's a matter of perception. Perhaps his Danish classmates thought they were also being very accomodating;

Hmm, now I'm curious... Can you elaborate a bit on this? :)

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Could it be a function of a greater cultural diversity in America versus other countries listed in the article? According to the CIA World Factbook, the US population is only 1% native, leaving the vast majority of people here as "cultural imports" in some way. Even if we call America a "white" country, that still leaves almost 1/5th of the population as "non majority". In contrast, the United Kingdom is listed as being aoubt 8% "non majority," and over 98% of Japanese population is culturally homogenious. Are Americans just more used to dealing with people who "aren't like us"?

Or could it be the other way around?
Is the US so diverse as you like to think?
After all, yes, most Americans came from somewhere else several generations ago. But today they're all Americans. They all have much the same culture and values. A lot of Americans have barely even met people who weren't American citizens.

Contrast this with Europe, where most people are little more than an hour's drive away from the neighboring country. A country which they've probably been at war with more than a few times through history, and who has a radically different history with more than a few cultural differences and a different language.

Even within individual countries there can be quite big cultural difference, regardless of how many people are immigrants. hell, I live in a country 300km wide, and I seriously can't understand a word of what people who live at the other end of the country are saying... [grin]

Which is most diverse then?
I don't know, but I think simply looking at "the number of immigrants" paints a far too simple picture. (Apart from everything else, most Europeans are immigrants too. They just didn't immigrate from another continent, but simply from another European country. But especially a few generations ago, the cultural differences were just as big)

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Original post by oliii I'll make another one. A american news media talking about culture is like a village idiot discussing quantum physics. He has no effin' clue.

thanks for helping to prove my point.

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Original post by gavco98 Am I the only one who finds it ironic that an article about respecting others cultures when doing business abroad manages to make their own faux pas by continually referring to this country as "England". Last time I looked it was the UK, or Britain. Although being Scottish its one thing that really narks me and I tend to notice it pretty quickly...

If he wasn't in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland, he was in England; and these are considered countries despite themselves being part of the UK.

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Original post by capn_midnight Americans seem to get a bad rap for being prudish and unbending, especially in reference to our handling of sex in media. From this article it appears that in regards to interpersonal interaction, the roles are reversed.

It seems to me that I'm always being reminded that visitors from other countries (or even other parts of the US) have different customs and we should be accomodating. Also, when learning a foreign language, it seems that they put a lot of emphasis on accent, however the accents I hear from foreign speakers are just terrible.

One time I went diving into Wikipedia and looked at their etiquette pages. I was surprised to hear that taking one's shoes off when entering someone's home in the US was impolite because you were making yourself at home. I come from Minnesota, where it's generally polite to take one's shoes off so as to avoid tracking. Actually, the article did mention that it's polite to offer to take one's shoes off and to suggest it's to avoid tracking, at which point it can go either way. The thing is, when people say, "Don't bother", it's more of a, "Don't worry about it, just make yourself comfortable", gesture.

One thing that bothers me much more than it should is those Japanese suffixes. I say, when you're in the United States, you're not Whatever-san, you're Mr. Whatever. [razz][wink]

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Original post by capn_midnight Could it be a function of a greater cultural diversity in America versus other countries listed in the article? According to the CIA World Factbook, the US population is only 1% native, leaving the vast majority of people here as "cultural imports" in some way. Even if we call America a "white" country, that still leaves almost 1/5th of the population as "non majority". In contrast, the United Kingdom is listed as being aoubt 8% "non majority," and over 98% of Japanese population is culturally homogenious. Are Americans just more used to dealing with people who "aren't like us"?

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Original post by Spoonbender Or could it be the other way around? Is the US so diverse as you like to think? After all, yes, most Americans came from somewhere else several generations ago. But today they're all Americans. They all have much the same culture and values. A lot of Americans have barely even met people who weren't American citizens. Contrast this with Europe, where most people are little more than an hour's drive away from the neighboring country. A country which they've probably been at war with more than a few times through history, and who has a radically different history with more than a few cultural differences and a different language.

I can see this going either way. Europeans have experience with a wider variety of cultures, Americans have experience with a wider variety within their own culture. Here's my guess, but I have little to back it up:

I imagine that travelling through Europe, one would meet relatively (by American standards) abrupt changes in culture. I could see this making for more rigid cultures and thus Europeans would have to adapt to the local culture. In the U.S., the cultural gradients are much more shallow, so it's often easier for Americans to just put up with the minor differences. Thus, Americans would expect other cultures to just be accepting of the differences. Europeans may have some empathy for the change that's required of us, but they would also say that they've gone through the change and so should we.

Of course, you could probably just as easily draw the opposite conclusion from the same data. Europeans have to deal with more abrupt changes and are thus more accepting of people not wanting to change their whole lifestyle just because they drove an hour from home. The U.S. is much more homogeneous and thus we don't see changes so much. The changes we think we see (e.g. the Left Coast vs. the New York Minute) are actually much smaller than we imagine.

... as I ate my piping hot gazpacho soup!

@capn_midnight I don't really think the article is particularly well written; it can be summised with the following: "Look at those crazy foreigners, getting offended at silly things!". Almost as bad (but not quite) as something the "Sun" would write over here.

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Americans seem to get a bad rap for being prudish and unbending, especially in reference to our handling of sex in media. From this article it appears that in regards to interpersonal interaction, the roles are reversed.

This paragraph implies two groups of people with distinct characteristics "Americans" and "Not-Americans". The place "Not-America" is not a country; "Not-Americans" do not exist. It's strange to lump everyone "other" into one group like this. Some places will be more prudish than Americans; others less. I assume there are ranges of difference when it comes to interpersonal interaction, why wouldn't there be?

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Couldn't it be considered just as culturally unaware to take offense at such faux pas? I don't think one can honestly expect an outsider to research and understand another country's cultural peculiarities with 100% accuracy and retention. In that light, these sort of missteps should be expected and taken with a grain of salt.

Yes. In the one example you cite, the people in question were being dicks. The least they could have done was politely explain why, rather than gasp in horror; speaking of which - how do we know that that isn't what really happened? Perhaps the bloke in question wasn't just being over-sensitive about his "faux-pas", and no one really cared about it at all?

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Could it be a function of a greater cultural diversity in America versus other countries listed in the article? According to the CIA World Factbook, the US population is only 1% native, leaving the vast majority of people here as "cultural imports" in some way. Even if we call America a "white" country, that still leaves almost 1/5th of the population as "non majority". In contrast, the United Kingdom is listed as being aoubt 8% "non majority," and over 98% of Japanese population is culturally homogenious. Are Americans just more used to dealing with people who "aren't like us"?

Man, I see this assertion so often on Gamedev from North Americans, its beginning to get depressing. The USA is not more culturally diverse than all other nations. Is this a widely held belief in the USA?

First, lets break your paragraph down into what you really seem to mean when you compare the USA to the UK and Japan.

1) The USA is more genetically diverse than the UK and Japan.

I can't really speak for Japan as I don't know it well enough - I only know of 3 distinct ethnic groups there; but in the case of the UK, I must disagree. Here is why; the US is a predominantly European country. So is the UK. If you go track back through your own family history you will find that the number of ancestors you have increases rapidly each generation; it is roughly (but not quite) of the sequence 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64. Assuming perfect records, as you go back you will find that the same people start appearing at different points in your family tree over and over again (as the number of ancestors soon begins to outnumber the number of Europeans alive at that given time in history). The consequence of this is that modern British with any English ancestors in the UK today are related to all the survivors of the Battle of Hastings (in 1066 AD); and that all Europeans alive today are related to all Europeans alive at the time of Charlemagne (800 AD). Given this, it doesn't make any sense to say that European Americans are more genetically diverse than European populations - it isn't true, they're essentially the same people.

2) The USA is more culturally diverse than the UK and Japan.

Again, I can't speak for Japan, but for the UK I have to say that this isn't true. Even ignoring immigrant groups of the last 50 years, we have a large number of what Americans would on their own turf consider different "cultures"; aside from the obvious Irish/English/Scots/Welsh split, you also have distinct differences between Northern and Southern Ireland, East and West Coast Scotland, the Western Isles, the Orkneys, Northern and Southern England, the West Country, Cornwall, the list goes on.. In France, off the top of my head, you have Bretons, Sardinians, Basque, etc. In all cases each different "culture" consists of differences in accents, foods, attitudes, even separatist groups.

Anyway..

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Whatever it is, I still think being insulted over wine is a tad silly.

True; but unless he was dining with a bunch of slightly snotty minor-public-school types, I don't really believe that anyone there considered it a "faux pas". Some of the examples in the article are also silly examples to use; who on earth thinks that it was in any way appropriate for George Bush to try to massage Andrea Merkel at a frickin' international conference? Would you blame her for being offended?

Jon

[Edited by - polly on August 31, 2007 5:21:40 AM]

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"Americans" and "Not-Americans". The place "Not-America" is not a country; "Not-Americans" do not exist.

While "Americans" do exist, "America" is not a country. Just clearing things up.

As for the OP story - "I call bullshit !" (C)

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Original post by Karnot Quote: "Americans" and "Not-Americans". The place "Not-America" is not a country; "Not-Americans" do not exist. While "Americans" do exist, "America" is not a country. Just clearing things up. As for the OP story - "I call bullshit !" (C)

Point conceeded. I try and say "North Americans" now, but even then how do you refer to US citizens in one word? "USians"? [grin]

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Original post by polly Point conceeded. I try and say "North Americans" now, but even then how do you refer to US citizens in one word? "USians"? [grin]

Yanks [grin]

FWIW, I'm from Canada, and I (and probably just about everyone I know, too) call them "Americans". Though, the country is "the States" to us :)

Oh, and polly, you may think it strange to divide the world into Americans and non-Americans, but really, people divide the world into "citizens of our country" and "non-citizens of our country" all around the world.

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Original post by gavco98 Am I the only one who finds it ironic that an article about respecting others cultures when doing business abroad manages to make their own faux pas by continually referring to this country as "England". Last time I looked it was the UK, or Britain. Although being Scottish its one thing that really narks me and I tend to notice it pretty quickly...

There is no such country as Britain. Britain is a land mass on which the countries of England, Scotland and Wales are present.

Umm, never start us Brits on what exactly Britain is. Some believe its separate countries which share a government. Others believe its one single country. Depending in your political beliefs you may argue one or the other fervently.

I argue that Britain is a single state and for reasons of stability and economy should remain so. Some of my family in Scotland, however, currently vote for Scottish independence and believe that there should be no such thing as Britain.

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Original post by oliii You as you say, wouldn't make a fuss, but you are not representative of the american population either (That reminds me of Top Gear doing a road trip in America).

That episode was hilarious. It also made me fear for their lives more than any of the other stunts they've pulled. Including the high speed rocket car that landed the one dude in the hospital.

As for the original topic, what Mithrandir said, although I think I'd at least do some basic homework on another nation's cultural customs before visiting.

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Original post by shotgunnutter Umm, never start us Brits on what exactly Britain is. Some believe its separate countries which share a government. Others believe its one single country. Depending in your political beliefs you may argue one or the other fervently. I argue that Britain is a single state and for reasons of stability and economy should remain so. Some of my family in Scotland, however, currently vote for Scottish independence and believe that there should be no such thing as Britain.

No, the reason that Britain is not a country is because it misses out Northern Ireland.

The only two options for country configuration over here are the United Kingdom (as in we are all just one country) or that each is a separate country sharing a common political system.

Britain is not, and never has been a country.