Violence in Games
Quote:Original post by LessBread
How long before they outfit consoles with id card swipes or fingerprint scanners?
I think it's about time that the games industry faced up to its responsibility as a parent, and set up a central server that verifies people's finger prints every time they try to play a game.
Every time anyone on the planet tries to play a game, the console or PC sends an image of the finger print to the central server. (I'm sure it can't be that difficult because Xbox live keeps track of whether or not thousands of people are online at any one time)
Just to be on the safe side, every single voice chat packet in every game ever, should be sent to this central server, so it can analyse the voice print to see whether the player is a child or not. I'm sure it wouldn't be too difficult, because AI guys are pretty smart, they will probably figure all that complicated numbers and programming stuff to make it work.
Quote:Original post by KonfusiusQuote:Original post by Stab-o-tronQuote:Original post by Konfusius
Yeah. I'm talking about children specifically. Other people can do what they please.
I was under the impression you wanted Manhunt banned for adults as well. If all you're advocating is that it be illegal to sell to children, then I've no argument with you.
Exactly, I want it banned because of it's sickness and probability to be seen by children and the damage they will take from it.
Yes, god forbid that parents actually play their fucking role as parents.
You want something banned entirely because it's violent and children may see it? I liked the original Manhunt; I thought it was remarkably repetitive and dull by the game's halfway point, but I enjoyed the game. So you're saying me, a twenty-three-old guy, should have the game banned because parents somewhere are irresponsible/stupid and can't keep the game from their young children?
What you're promoting is that the role of government as a surrogate parent. Games getting banned mean that people, in the range of babies to the elderly, won't be able to play a given title because members of a country's government feel that no one should be allowed to decide whether or not they play a game. People above the age of the game's rating threshold (say, 17+ for a mature-rated game) shouldn't be allowed to play a game whatsoever, despite the fact that there are far more people above the age of seventeen than there are under the age.
And how does a game get banned for children and not adults? Like, adults have to go to the adult movie store to buy their copy of Manhunt? That's simply ridiculous. Stores already regulate that children cannot buy M-rated games without an adult present.
Whether there are people like that is irrelevant. Families that bad off likely aren't buying PS3 or 360 consoles. That isn't even remotely the type of people that are committing shootings that you and your kind are quick to use as examples of game inspired violence. Your example is useless, as it draws no parallels to the demographic that is playing the games the most, and certainly not the demographic that school shooters come from. Young kids staying home all day long by themselves is not anywhere near the norm, nor is it legal in many cases. You are manufacturing a what-if example that doesn't reflect the happenings of the real world. It's useless and irrelevant to the discussion.
Present evidence that there is anything at all detrimental happening as a result of violent games. Until such evidence exists you have a pretty weak argument.
Present evidence that there is anything at all detrimental happening as a result of violent games. Until such evidence exists you have a pretty weak argument.
I didn't say all day long. School time is excepted as I stated above. The rest is enough.
You are not solving the problem and leaving a 10 year old at home, guys, it's the same like having him at a friends house the whole rest of the day. No one controls that. I know that.
And don't play that card that I want super-security. It is as easy as dividing up two groups if you had read what I meant about kicking from servers and when exactly. It's 2 months straight. Practically home from school, onto the computer and into bed. Now read before you write your strange stuff.
Of course they have money to buy such stuff. Ever seen what equipment they got? They aren't poor, that's why the one parent is working hard all day.
dammit guys you are jamming up every single attempt to make this constructive. I don't say you're not right in putting more awareness to parents' responsibility but the way you are ignoring other possibilities is not good for the discussion. When I hear sentences like "the likes of you" I must say, that's it. I won't discuss any further. You are neglecting basic rules of politeness. Funny that you want to know something about tackling one of the opposites of politeness, namely violence...
You are not solving the problem and leaving a 10 year old at home, guys, it's the same like having him at a friends house the whole rest of the day. No one controls that. I know that.
And don't play that card that I want super-security. It is as easy as dividing up two groups if you had read what I meant about kicking from servers and when exactly. It's 2 months straight. Practically home from school, onto the computer and into bed. Now read before you write your strange stuff.
Of course they have money to buy such stuff. Ever seen what equipment they got? They aren't poor, that's why the one parent is working hard all day.
dammit guys you are jamming up every single attempt to make this constructive. I don't say you're not right in putting more awareness to parents' responsibility but the way you are ignoring other possibilities is not good for the discussion. When I hear sentences like "the likes of you" I must say, that's it. I won't discuss any further. You are neglecting basic rules of politeness. Funny that you want to know something about tackling one of the opposites of politeness, namely violence...
Quote:Original post by M4lV
And don't play that card that I want super-security. It is as easy as dividing up two groups if you had read what I meant about kicking from servers and when exactly. It's 2 months straight. Practically home from school, onto the computer and into bed. Now read before you write your strange stuff.
I'm sorry, but you've not presented any evidence that it's as simple as splitting up two groups, anywhere but in your imagination.
I'd love to hear the details of this amazing algorithm that can determine that a player is a child, by analysing text chat, but doesn't unfairly penalise adult dyslexics, and takes into account the fact that even adults will tend to use internet abbreviations and slang more often, when chatting in games, and that is also capable of determining that the player is a child, if they decide to use a third party voice-chat application.
Could the same algorithm also be applied to rendering, by "just drawing things faster", or AI by "just acting more like a human"? The mind boggles.
You want a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. What exactly is your point? Be a fucking parent, period. If you are concerned about a video games effect on your child don't allow them access. Don't get them those types of games, don't allow them to friends houses that have them, don't even get them a console if you're that paranoid. The overwhelming majority of people today, even kids under the rating requirements of the game are just fine playing them. Many parents willingly allow their children to play more mature games than they are normally age appropriate for. The insignificant minority that can't tell the difference between a game and the real world certainly aren't cause for complete bans. That wouldn't fix their problem. The industry, or government has no place in this sort of regulation. The only group that is in a position and equipped to handle that is the parents, and that's it. A kid having a couple hours of alone/game time after school before parent gets home is not going to warp the child if the parent is involved in the evening time.
I cant stand this thread.
A part of being a good parent is yes, dont allow them to play those games in your house. But its also explaining what the content means, why its a game, talking about emotions and reactions they are having, or even explaining why they cant have it in their home.
No government, teacher, sibling, friend or anyone is better suited for this kind of restriction for children then the parents.
Some of the logic here can be applied to anything, and we will all agree its irrelevant. I can go to Mcdonalds and eat all day and gain 10 lbs a day until Im obese and cant stand on my own legs anymore. Does that mean Mcdonalds should not allow customers to be there for more then 1 hour a day? No, thats obsurd. That is on me as a free thinking human being, or if I'm a child, on my parents to explain what nutrition my body needs and why I need to stop eating when Im full, why Mcdonalds everyday all day is unhealthy, and if I want to do anything with my life I need the correct nutrition.
It goes back to the parenting, but not parenting by micro management. When we say the solution goes to parenting, its not that these parents need to watch their kids 24/7, what video games they play, how many hours a day, etc. Its parenting with the idea that Im educating my child to know the difference between right and wrong, to realize that there are millions of options for me to spend my time doing and that video games are an outlet for things we dont do in the real world.
The rebuttle for the argument that "its on the parents, not the government or developers" with "parents cant be around 24/7" is extremely short sighted of what parenting is.
A part of being a good parent is yes, dont allow them to play those games in your house. But its also explaining what the content means, why its a game, talking about emotions and reactions they are having, or even explaining why they cant have it in their home.
No government, teacher, sibling, friend or anyone is better suited for this kind of restriction for children then the parents.
Some of the logic here can be applied to anything, and we will all agree its irrelevant. I can go to Mcdonalds and eat all day and gain 10 lbs a day until Im obese and cant stand on my own legs anymore. Does that mean Mcdonalds should not allow customers to be there for more then 1 hour a day? No, thats obsurd. That is on me as a free thinking human being, or if I'm a child, on my parents to explain what nutrition my body needs and why I need to stop eating when Im full, why Mcdonalds everyday all day is unhealthy, and if I want to do anything with my life I need the correct nutrition.
It goes back to the parenting, but not parenting by micro management. When we say the solution goes to parenting, its not that these parents need to watch their kids 24/7, what video games they play, how many hours a day, etc. Its parenting with the idea that Im educating my child to know the difference between right and wrong, to realize that there are millions of options for me to spend my time doing and that video games are an outlet for things we dont do in the real world.
The rebuttle for the argument that "its on the parents, not the government or developers" with "parents cant be around 24/7" is extremely short sighted of what parenting is.
Now that's better. I agree that such an algorithm probably has an unacceptable success rate if focussing on language alone (just think about russians playing an english version, hell, that gives each developer a lot of extra-costs to get all major languages the game is shipped out covered). If we just restrict to the english version for now, I was thinking more about revealing information that kids give each during gameplay like "Ha, fragged you, now see you tomorrow in class" (okay, assuming teachers are left out here) which are screened for and assessed (could be there were talking about the past but then most likely they used past tense). Since such "good bye" messages are commonplace, I'd say an algorithm might have a chance when analyzing and summing up these "events" over a certain period of time (no more than 2 months; remember, our provider also logs all our internet activity for a certain time; in my country even 6 months are planned which is a big drawback in privacy that I condemn).
Though I admit, those kids are mostly not that stupid so they figure that out and just "create their new slang" replacing class with college or anything. So I think without help and acceptance of the majority of online players refraining from using such evasive tactics cause they understand and support screening for those tiny percentage of kids really in trouble, nothing I mentioned will work in the end. I could be successful since the ones in question are mostly disruptive to gameplay anyway since they are playing too long, are too strong, even multi-lvled, or simply the badasses and tk'ers on server. On private Tk-servers, that's becoming very difficult.
I agree it would be a constant run after those kids and their slang with constant updates to the algorithm->costs money and success is not guaranteed, far from it. But remember, I'm only trying to sort out average-7h-kid-players over a period of 2 months max. I feel challenged that this should seem impossible at reasonable costs.
One last thing, kids, especially troubled kids are not 1:1 converting their parents wisdom into their own life. Those ones never at home are likely to have no good relationship towards their kid(s) simply because of that. Then it doesn't help if they try to sit down at 9 o'clock in the evening when the kids has played his fun-games all day long to try and talk him out of it when mostly the kid gets bullied by all other "friends" he has in the first place.
Don't just think parents do not care. Parenting is not as easy as telling good things over and over again. In some cases they can't and their kids are virtually "aliens" playing hard-ball on them even threatening them. Just try and take the drug away from the addicted and enjoy what happens. Now you come and keep pushing those ones even harder too. Those single-parents I mentioned might be not poor, but it's mostly just enough to buy the Xbox (a simple up-to-date midrange pc is enough in the end to play manhunt on very low graphic setting, so costs aren't that extrorbitantly) the kid bullies his parent to buy and finito.
I agree, the majority does not suffer from that problem. But the majority is not who goes out on killing sprees or becomes criminal in the end.
I think games should assist parents to keep their kids under control in some way.
It's also not always the friends' house where they get their copies of such violent games. It's foremost the 18 year old late-developing "kid" present in nearly every school that goes around stores, buys up stuff and sells it to kids in the backyard of school. Now have a parent control that. It's mostly the entry card for those kids into the crime and possibly drug scene anyway.
Now I don't want bans. You're totally right about McDonalds and stuff. But they don't deal (aside from real crime) with violence shown and practised virtually the whole day making the kid less sensitive to it. We had for example a major shooting in Germany a while ago where the kid was exactly such a troubled one with no life that I described.
Now I just want to raise awareness that there is a problem that those particular parents in question cannot solve. I do not know if I can solve it but neglecting and dismissing it doesn't seem a valid answer to me so maybe another one got another approach other than riding on parents that's thought through and help here..
[Edited by - M4lV on April 17, 2008 3:57:37 AM]
Though I admit, those kids are mostly not that stupid so they figure that out and just "create their new slang" replacing class with college or anything. So I think without help and acceptance of the majority of online players refraining from using such evasive tactics cause they understand and support screening for those tiny percentage of kids really in trouble, nothing I mentioned will work in the end. I could be successful since the ones in question are mostly disruptive to gameplay anyway since they are playing too long, are too strong, even multi-lvled, or simply the badasses and tk'ers on server. On private Tk-servers, that's becoming very difficult.
I agree it would be a constant run after those kids and their slang with constant updates to the algorithm->costs money and success is not guaranteed, far from it. But remember, I'm only trying to sort out average-7h-kid-players over a period of 2 months max. I feel challenged that this should seem impossible at reasonable costs.
One last thing, kids, especially troubled kids are not 1:1 converting their parents wisdom into their own life. Those ones never at home are likely to have no good relationship towards their kid(s) simply because of that. Then it doesn't help if they try to sit down at 9 o'clock in the evening when the kids has played his fun-games all day long to try and talk him out of it when mostly the kid gets bullied by all other "friends" he has in the first place.
Don't just think parents do not care. Parenting is not as easy as telling good things over and over again. In some cases they can't and their kids are virtually "aliens" playing hard-ball on them even threatening them. Just try and take the drug away from the addicted and enjoy what happens. Now you come and keep pushing those ones even harder too. Those single-parents I mentioned might be not poor, but it's mostly just enough to buy the Xbox (a simple up-to-date midrange pc is enough in the end to play manhunt on very low graphic setting, so costs aren't that extrorbitantly) the kid bullies his parent to buy and finito.
I agree, the majority does not suffer from that problem. But the majority is not who goes out on killing sprees or becomes criminal in the end.
I think games should assist parents to keep their kids under control in some way.
It's also not always the friends' house where they get their copies of such violent games. It's foremost the 18 year old late-developing "kid" present in nearly every school that goes around stores, buys up stuff and sells it to kids in the backyard of school. Now have a parent control that. It's mostly the entry card for those kids into the crime and possibly drug scene anyway.
Now I don't want bans. You're totally right about McDonalds and stuff. But they don't deal (aside from real crime) with violence shown and practised virtually the whole day making the kid less sensitive to it. We had for example a major shooting in Germany a while ago where the kid was exactly such a troubled one with no life that I described.
Now I just want to raise awareness that there is a problem that those particular parents in question cannot solve. I do not know if I can solve it but neglecting and dismissing it doesn't seem a valid answer to me so maybe another one got another approach other than riding on parents that's thought through and help here..
[Edited by - M4lV on April 17, 2008 3:57:37 AM]
Quote:Original post by Konfusius
Quote:
Manhunt and GTA aren't unreal by a kids view. I the first you are a brute, in the second you drive cars and roll over passers-by.
Any kid that can't tell the difference is in need of serious help. Also keep them away from all media, you never know they might watch the little mermaid and think they can breathe underwater.
Quote:
Even better if you have a choice. In Manhunt, you (as a player) don't. You just have to play along.
A few posts ago you said you had no choice in The Suffering cos you're a monster. Which is it? I don't think you've played it.
Quote:Search harder.
You made the argument, the onus is on you to provide these "proofs". Otherwise you're just talking bull. Where's the rigour?
Quote:Better yet, keep them occupied outside.
I actually agree with this.
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