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Is this ...unethical?

Started by Nemesis2k2 Oct 2, 2008 at 3:34 AM 17 replies 3.7k views

Original Post

Oct 2, 2008 at 3:34 AM

I'm a little divided about this, so I thought I'd ask the question here. More than a few of you here are probably familiar with Hex Workshop. It's a feature-rich hex editor for Windows, and one of my favourite tools. I've been using it for over 10 years now. Here's what the interface looks like with the default settings:

Now, to the point. I'm working on a fairly large non-commercial project right now. It's just something I'm doing by myself, but it will be released publicly. This project is a program which allows physical systems to be modelled, run, and debugged, entirely in software (a hardware emulator). As part of this project, I needed to create a custom control to allow memory buffers to be viewed and edited on the fly, within my debugger as the system is running. Essentially, I needed a mini hex editor embedded in my app. Naturally, when I thought of a hex editor, the first thing I thought of was Hex Workshop. I also know most of the people who will be using this app in the immediate future also use Hex Workshop. I wanted to make my editor consistent with the look and feel I was used to, and my users are used to, so I set about creating my own control with a similar look and similar behaviour. Here's what I ended up with:

There really isn't a lot to this. It's a dozen or so pages of win32 code all up to build the control. Hex Workshop has a lot more to it than just its data editor window, but it is of course a significant part, and it does a lot to define the look of the program. I didn't have too many problems with this before I made my control, but now that I've actually done it and I can see just how similar it is, I'm having second thoughts. I did use a different font, font size, and column spacing, which were more appropriate within my program, but the colours for the columns in particular have been directly taken from Hex Workshop. So, to the question then, do you think is this unethical? Should I avoid making my editor look like another one?

kostiak2

Oct 2, 2008 at 3:50 AM

As long as the you wrote the code, I see no problems with it whatsoever... (it's not like you copied graphics from a game, you made a similar interface, and it's not even like it's a competing software or something, it's for a completely different use.)

In short - i think it's ok.

kost.

Programmer One

Oct 2, 2008 at 3:50 AM

If you can make a hex editor that doesn't look like any other hex editor out there - I'd be impressed. Change the font colors if you feel bad about it.

Otherwise, I don't think it is unethical. You didn't steal the thing.

greenhybrid

Oct 2, 2008 at 3:59 AM

Quote:
Original post by Programmer One
If you can make a hex editor that doesn't look like any other hex editor out there - I'd be impressed.

Word! Even on a *nix-shell they (mostly) don't look different (except for the colors)

BlackSpot

Oct 2, 2008 at 4:16 AM

I consider it unethical for someone to try and stop you.

Consider microsofts attempt to patent/copyright (whichever it was) the ribbon control of the new office suite.

Its not a new design for one, but if you rotate it 90deg you have what loads of websites already have.

What if Adam had copyrighted his DNA?

Can you copyright atoms? Sub-atomic elements? Can i own the rights to the atom of binary data?

Does microsoft own the part of your mind that remembers what windows look like?

LessBread

Oct 2, 2008 at 4:19 AM

I claim hydrogen!!!

BlackSpot

Oct 2, 2008 at 4:35 AM

You cant, i already claimed the sub atomic components.

supamike

Oct 2, 2008 at 4:54 AM

Nothing wrong or unethical here at all. A hex editor is a hex editor. There's less than afew ways you can represent hex without making look like anything else.

As kostiak said, as long as the code is yours, it's yours.

although maybe i'm just being unimaginative...

you could use DX to make a 3D scene that gives each hex character a pair of legs so they can run into a big pile, then write some AI so they can sort themselves out into the correct order. And of course you must be able to rotate the camera and zoom in to watch all of this taking place.

Trapper Zoid

Oct 2, 2008 at 5:14 AM

You can't copyright basic elements. You could try and patent their use though. I'll claim any methods for the breakdown of molecular oxygen and the resulting recombination of oxygen atoms in a process termed "Oxidisation^TM".

Back on track - I don't see anything wrong with capturing the look and feel of Hex Workshop's editor. If it's bugging you, you could add a customisation window and have a few different schemes; different font choices, colours, backgrounds, etc.; and make it selectable, and offer a Hex Workshop like look as well as some others.

Wan

Oct 2, 2008 at 9:08 AM

I too have yet to see a hex editor that does not look like that.

Drastically altering the look for the sake of originality will only confuse users. There is a reason why commonly used interfaces (file explorers, media players, browsers) all look alike, it's a good thing.

Luckless

Oct 2, 2008 at 9:27 AM

In the US, a company may fight to protect the 'look and feel' of their product, that is an aspect of it that is not central to its function, but may be distinctive to that company's products. (Best example is the cowhide pattern on Gateway's boxes)

If the look and feel of the program is not distinct to that program, and no one is trying to prove it is, then you are perfectly free to make use of it yourself and even work to build brand recognition on your own product to the point that people see it and link the product to you (even if it isn't actually your product, and just the one that looks similar).

LessBread

Oct 2, 2008 at 11:46 AM

Quote:
Original post by BlackSpot
You cant, i already claimed the sub atomic components.

On the contrary, you asked if it was possible. And while you were asking I snatched the title from your fingers and filed it with the universal galactic surveyor's office of patents and claims...

Whackjack

Oct 2, 2008 at 1:22 PM

Quote:
Original post by Trapper Zoid
I'll claim any methods for the breakdown of molecular oxygen and the resulting recombination of oxygen atoms in a process termed "Oxidisation^TM".

Unfortunately for you, I've already claimed any methods for the breakdown of molecular oxygen and the resulting recombination of oxygen atoms in a process termed "Oxidization"^TM
And we all know that the US is the world leader in frivolous patents!

More on topic, it seems like that interface is pretty generic. So I don't see anything unethical about copying it.

Raghar

Oct 2, 2008 at 2:18 PM

How it can be unethical? It's called a software design. What copyright lobby brought the world into, when a software design could be questioned.

Zipster

Oct 3, 2008 at 4:12 AM

Frankly, I think you are a horrible person for copying this hex editor design. I mean, it's tantamount to killing puppies! Fuckin' puppies man!

Anon Mike

Oct 3, 2008 at 11:32 AM

I'm going to buck the trend and say that since you seem to be pretty clearly trying to exactly replicate Hex Workshop's look then you are on shakey ground. Yes, all hex dumpers look similiar, but not typically down to the exact choice of custom colors, placement of dividing lines, grouping of digits, maybe even the font, etc. You can easily vary that stuff enough to be distinct without paralizing your users with confusion.

My rule of thumb on this sort of thing is that if you're unsure enough to have to ask, then you probably just shouldn't do it.

fpsgamer

Oct 3, 2008 at 12:09 PM

Quote:
Original post by Zipster
I mean, it's tantamount to killing puppies! Fuckin' puppies man!

IMHO, fucking puppies is worse than killing puppies.

Hnefi

Oct 4, 2008 at 7:04 AM

Quote:
Original post by Anon Mike
I'm going to buck the trend and say that since you seem to be pretty clearly trying to exactly replicate Hex Workshop's look then you are on shakey ground. Yes, all hex dumpers look similiar, but not typically down to the exact choice of custom colors, placement of dividing lines, grouping of digits, maybe even the font, etc. You can easily vary that stuff enough to be distinct without paralizing your users with confusion.

All hex editors I've ever used placed the digits in groups of four, since four bytes = 32 bits. Same with dividing lines - they are dividing the three different areas of the window showing different information.

Frankly, this is nothing to worry about. The layout of a hex editor is no more copyrighted than the layout of a tex document.

Nemesis2k2

Oct 6, 2008 at 10:38 AM

Thanks for the feedback. In the end, I've decided to use the control basically as it is. Hex Workshop does allow the font, colours, sizes, etc to be redefined by the user, so the only real hang-up here is the defaults, and in fact, with the exception of the colours, all of that is different in my control anyway.

If I'd started from scratch, and finished with something that ended up looking like Hex Workshop, I wouldn't have any problem with it. As Anon said however, I did set out to replicate Hex Workshop, and that's where I kind of ended up feeling a bit guilty in the end. I probably should have just built my own control, and ignored the specifics of what Hex Workshop did. Is that even possible though? If you've been using a particular tool for years, and in your opinion it's got the best interface, and you've got no ideas about how it could be done any better, how can you sit down and design something else? Ehh, same as a lot of other things I suppose.

The "code of ethics" about interfaces seem a bit vague to me. If I write my own app which does exactly what another app does, there's nothing wrong with that (let's just ignore patents shall we). The concept may not be new, but it's my implementation. As long as I wrote the code, there's no problem. With an interface though, is the look and general design itself something that can be claimed, or are the actual interface templates as far as that ownership goes? It looks like most people here would say the actual templates are all that's off limits, although I wonder if I'd get the same answer if I asked a designer.

I'm really glad I wasn't around for the early days of GUI design. I'd be the guy who stresses for a week about whether he should copy the idea of a button.

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