America invades Syria

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Original post by Hodgman I'm surprised that I haven't seen this reported in the local news at all. Isn't this a big deal, a really big deal? They just invaded a sovereign nation and murdered a bunch of their civilians without warning or explanation! Isn't that illegal? Isn't that an act of war, or, an act of terrorism? What would America do if Cuba flew into Florida and killed a dozen US citizens?

I've seen this pop up a few times on google news. I think it is somewhat understandable, and suprised this hasn't happened yet on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Looking at it from the US perspective: You get a chance to pick of some terrorists who are causing trouble along a border you are trying to protect. From a Syrian perspective: Neighborhing occupied country attacks within your borders. As for what really went on - I doubt we will really know.

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Original post by Moe Quote: Original post by Hodgman I'm surprised that I haven't seen this reported in the local news at all. Isn't this a big deal, a really big deal? They just invaded a sovereign nation and murdered a bunch of their civilians without warning or explanation! Isn't that illegal? Isn't that an act of war, or, an act of terrorism? What would America do if Cuba flew into Florida and killed a dozen US citizens? I've seen this pop up a few times on google news. I think it is somewhat understandable, and suprised this hasn't happened yet on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Looking at it from the US perspective: You get a chance to pick of some terrorists who are causing trouble along a border you are trying to protect. From a Syrian perspective: Neighborhing occupied country attacks within your borders. As for what really went on - I doubt we will really know.

Well, it has happened on the border with Pakistan. Several times, too.

Also, I don't feel like invasion carries the right connotations. Attacked, sure. Since you asked what it would be like if it happened in the US: when Pearl Harbor was bombed in 1941, it was called an attack, not an invasion.

For what it's worth, I've seen this on the news.

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Original post by Moe Looking at it from the US perspective: You get a chance to pick of some "terrorists" who are causing trouble along a border you are trying to protect. From a Syrian perspective: Neighborhing occupied country attacks within your borders. As for what really went on - I doubt we will really know.

From what I've read, the US is claiming the "target" was helping to smuggle fighters (aka "terrorists") across the border.
If this is the case, then they must have had some evidence to justify such an attack. If they had evidence, then they should've handed it over to the Syrian justice system and let them arrest the man and give him a trial.

I can't understand how they can justify murdering a suspected criminal, in a foreign country, outside of a war zone, without due process, let along murdering him and anyone else who happened to be in the area at the time:

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"I heard shooting, I ran to get my son and they shot me," one woman lying in a hospital bed told Syrian state television in footage aired on Monday. "I was fishing and I saw four helicopters. They started shooting like the rain," said another man, his arm in a bandage. "I saw eight soldiers coming out (of a helicopter) with weapons... I tried to flee and I was hit."

How on earth do you justify that?

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Original post by Avatar God Also, I don't feel like invasion carries the right connotations. Attacked, sure. Since you asked what it would be like if it happened in the US: when Pearl Harbor was bombed in 1941, it was called an attack, not an invasion.

Yeah I deliberately chose the exaggeration of "invade" to bring attention to the issue, I agree a more accurate description would be a "hit and run attack".

I chose "invade" because they actually set foot in the country - in contrast with their attacks on Pakistan where they just shoot missiles over the border.

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I chose "invade" because they actually set foot in the country - in contrast with their attacks on Pakistan where they just shoot missiles over the border.

No, I think there were a few cammando raids into Pakistan as well.

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As for what really went on - I doubt we will really know.

I agree. Along with this Syrian incursion I also read that the Syrian government has been trying to improve it's relationship with the US (to what effect you might ask...). Another data point was Isreal bombing the suspected nuclear reactor site on Syrian soil earlier this year.

Syria's territorial integrity has been a bit abused lately...

That's our current administration for you... Totally unilateral action without the backing of the international community or seemingly any regard for international law. Hopefully the next president will improve the situation.

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Original post by Hodgman Isn't this a big deal, a really big deal?

Not really. International incidents -- especially ones precipitated by the US -- are rather common.

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Original post by OmegaHelm Along with this Syrian incursion I also read that the Syrian government has been trying to improve it's relationship with the US (to what effect you might ask...). Another data point was Isreal bombing the suspected nuclear reactor site on Syrian soil earlier this year. Syria's territorial integrity has been a bit abused lately...

It seems to me that Syria has been trying to improve it's relationship with the USA since the aftermath of 9/11 as they don't want to be subjected to "regime change". I recall that not too long ago Nancy Pelosi traveled to Syria to meet with it's leaders and for her effort got a lot of flack in the right wing press.

And it's also worth remembering the Israeli air strikes there too, as you point out. There was some speculation that Israel received US assistance, satellite surveillance and the like, iirc. However, IAEA: Samples from alleged Syria nuke site justify further probe.

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... In an oral report to an IAEA board meeting last month, IAEA chief Mohamed ElBaradei told the board meeting that preliminary results from the environmental samples came up with no indication to back the claims that the destroyed target was a nuclear facility. ...

Now here's a double standard: U.S. warns Syria against sending ground troops into Lebanon

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... At the end of last month, Syria sent hundreds of troops to its northern border with Lebanon, in a move the authorities said was aimed to combat smuggling. ...

That's in contrast with: U.S. says raid in Syria targeted smuggler

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DAMASCUS (Reuters) – A raid by U.S. forces inside Syria on Sunday is believed to have killed a major smuggler of foreign fighters into Iraq, a U.S. official said on Monday, as Syria condemned the attack as "terrorist aggression." ...

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Original post by Hodgman I'm surprised that I haven't seen this reported in the local news at all. Isn't this a big deal, a really big deal? They just invaded a sovereign nation and murdered a bunch of their civilians without warning or explanation! Isn't that illegal? Isn't that an act of war, or, an act of terrorism? What would America do if Cuba flew into Florida and killed a dozen US citizens?

People just don't seem to care when it happens to "other people." If eight American civilians had been killed by Syrian forces I'm pretty sure you'd never hear the end of it.
Most people just seem to be totally at ease with the fact that murder of civilians is something that just happens in the middle east.
People passively accept these things because they're continuously being brainwashed by the media into believing that a "liberation" is taking place.
Scare tactics are also heavily employed, nothing puts people into submission mode like the never ending threat of "terror."

Almost 100.000 civilians have been murdered in Iraq. For what? Iraq was certainly never a threat to anybody. If they were, it would've taken more than a few scanty weeks to reach Baghdad. Most of the "terrorists" in Iraq consists of ordinary people who are outraged by the fact that their country have been bombed asunder and their friends and family murdered. However I honestly don't care about these things any more. I know for a fact that the world has gone so awry that it is far beyond my ability to do anything about it. Sure, I can participate in protests and so on. But what good is that going to do? I'll either be viewed as an attention whore or a conspiracy nut. Probably a little bit of both. Not worth the effort.

I'm just going to passively sit here, drink some fluoridated water and watch American Idol. Maybe I'll swap over to a news channel which covers the worldwide War on Terror. Any moment now the international antiterror police is going to knock on my door and stick a microchip up my ass based on the suspicion that I might be a terrorist.

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Original post by Hodgman They just invaded a sovereign nation and murdered a bunch of their civilians without warning or explanation! Isn't that illegal? Isn't that an act of war, or, an act of terrorism?

I think,it was mistake.It happens sometimes during war...
A lot of unexpectable things happens during wars.
I'm recaling that in the times of last Sirian-Israel war ,one day Israel aircrafts were droping bombs ,and
Sirian anti-airstrike guns accidentally hited to large caliber bomb when it only began to fall(!)
Week or more Israel aircrafts avoid this place,they
simply didn't understand what realy happened:)

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Original post by Krokhin Quote: Original post by Hodgman They just invaded a sovereign nation and murdered a bunch of their civilians without warning or explanation! Isn't that illegal? Isn't that an act of war, or, an act of terrorism? I think,it was mistake.It happens sometimes during war... A lot of unexpectable things happens during wars.

But the thing is - there is no war going on in Syria!

Imagine if Russia flew into France and killed some people - you would not be able to call that a "mistake of war", because there is no war.

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Original post by polymorphed Quote: Original post by Hodgman I'm surprised that I haven't seen this reported in the local news at all. Isn't this a big deal, a really big deal? They just invaded a sovereign nation and murdered a bunch of their civilians without warning or explanation! Isn't that illegal? Isn't that an act of war, or, an act of terrorism? What would America do if Cuba flew into Florida and killed a dozen US citizens? People just don't seem to care when it happens to "other people." If eight American civilians had been killed by Syrian forces I'm pretty sure you'd never hear the end of it.

That article doesn't sound very convincing. How many people saw the helicopters?

Also yeah if Syrian's had killed US civilians we'd be pissed and do something about it probably. What's your point? I'm sure the Syrians are mad about it. It's totally different when it happens to a country and when a country does it to another country.

I'm sure the government is taking care of things anyway. It should all be taken care of rather nicely.

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Original post by Hodgman Imagine if Russia flew into France and killed some people - you would not be able to call that a "mistake of war", because there is no war.

Siria has a boundary with Iraq.May be,they was hanted for rebels.
Do you realy think,that Afgan drug dillers for example, when they run away from army troops, stops immediately after boundary crossing and shows solders middle fingers? No,they runs longer,at least 10 miles:)

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Original post by Sirisian That article doesn't sound very convincing. How many people saw the helicopters?

Implying that it didn't happen?
Well they've confirmed it now:

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U.S. Calls Raid a Warning to Syria U.S. troops in helicopters flew four miles into Syrian territory over the weekend to target the leader of a network that channels foreign fighters from Syria into Iraq, killing or wounding him and shooting dead several armed men, U.S. officials said Monday. ... "You have to clean up the global threat that is in your back yard, and if you won't do that, we are left with no choice but to take these matters into our hands," said a senior U.S. official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the cross-border strike.

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Also yeah if Syrian's had killed US civilians we'd be pissed and do something about it probably. What's your point?

Point is, next time some 'terrorist' does decide to do something about, the US should point the finger at their foreign policy...

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It's totally different when it happens to a country and when a country does it to another country.

What?

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Original post by Hodgman Quote: It's totally different when it happens to a country and when a country does it to another country. What?

Bad wording. I mean when a person hears their own civilians are getting killed it's much different than hearing about someone else's.

Referring to these statements:

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Original post by Hodgman What would America do if Cuba flew into Florida and killed a dozen US citizens?

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Original post by polymorphed People just don't seem to care when it happens to "other people." If eight American civilians had been killed by Syrian forces I'm pretty sure you'd never hear the end of it.

If you get mad when you hear about civilians being accidentally killed, then you are a lot more empathetic than I am. Might be the huge distance between me and the events (...or the fact that I haven't watched the news in a few years and am a bit disconnected with what's happening).

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Original post by Hodgman Yeah I deliberately chose the exaggeration of "invade" to bring attention to the issue, I agree a more accurate description would be a "hit and run attack".

Personally, I think purposely using inflammatory language is dumb. If it's really that important, the events will speak for themselves.

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I chose "invade" because they actually set foot in the country - in contrast with their attacks on Pakistan where they just shoot missiles over the border.

Oh, we violate their territory all the time. It's also a pretty big deal, there's reports that the Pakistani military has orders to shoot at any American incursions across the border immediately. The Pakistani military apparently has been less than helpful with fighting Al Qaeda, and I'm afraid if you're an actual terrorist, borders really don't matter too much to you.

I'd hate to quote a blog, but here's a source that says that there were beginning discussions for handing over Al Mazidih. It's been established for a while that the US viewed him as a threat for quite a while. It appears that the US got impatient (maybe some new intelligence? we'll never know) and decided that we'd just to it ourselves.

The reports of civilian deaths are somewhat suspect, state media has the tendency to warp information. I doubt we'll ever know if however many civilians, innocent or not, died but apparently they found Mazidih. And killed him.

The way I look at it, this was not just some civilians who died. These were civilians in a country NOT at war, killed by US troops, of the 8 casualties, there were 4 CHILDREN.

I will try to put it in perspective. If Venezuela would fight some anti-drugs war in Mexico, and thought a druglord was in an American city, and dropped a bomb on it, would that be ok? Lets say this druglord had already killed a couple American junkies. But when the bomb was dropped he was near a school, killing him, but also four children in the process, just a small incident?

I would not be surprised if this attack created another 100.000 'terrorists' (read, very, very pissed off Syrians). Really, think, if we would ask a question to every citizen in the world right now, asking what country they hate the most, what do you think they will answer? The US is not the shining beacon it is supposed to be (not leading in peace, how to protect the environment, how to be responsible with resources, how to have fair sharing of resources between rich and poor, proper healthcare, general standard of living, education), and to be honest, that saddens me, because we can all see the potential.

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Original post by DogmaDZ The way I look at it, this was not just some civilians who died. These were civilians in a country NOT at war, killed by US troops, of the 8 casualties, there were 4 CHILDREN.

Countryes in this region always(permanently) are in state of war-direct of hidden,many years.
I can't say that US do everything right in this region,from one hand.
From another hand,something sould be done anyway.Without US intervention
in Iraq Saddam could attack Israel.It was absolutely real threat,I think.
"Nuclear" answer from Israel's side has a little probability,but this probability above zero.Recent Georgian war has shown,that UN and another international organisations- just losers.So,and what to do?
And what RF could to do,if Georgian jet artillery were on another side of boundary?Wait UN diplomacy will allow it?
I'm afraid that a new profession will appear soon-armed diplomat:))

[Edited by - Krokhin on October 29, 2008 8:12:48 AM]

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Original post by DogmaDZ I would not be surprised if this attack created another 100.000 'terrorists' (read, very, very pissed off Syrians).

Yeah, I would expect a retaliation of some sort.

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Original post by Prinz Eugn The reports of civilian deaths are somewhat suspect, state media has the tendency to warp information. I doubt we'll ever know if however many civilians, innocent or not, died but apparently they found Mazidih. And killed him.

Ah, so the ends justifies the means does it?

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All this stuff about 'terrorist don't respect borders' and the like isn't a good point of view either; acts like this make you no better than the terrorists you are trying to fight. I wouldn't be surprised if world opinion rates the US as no better than a terrorist state in some instances, and I'm not talking in the Middle East but in Europe and the like.

And they wonder why terrorist hate them...