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The failings of democracy in small-scale elections

Started by Winegums Mar 31, 2009 at 6:58 AM 86 replies 20.4k views
Original Post
Winegums
Winegums
So my friends were campaigning to be president and vice president of their student union. One was the current vice president and the other has served on the union executive committee for two years. They were up against one other pair. Neither of this other pair had experience in student government (at least, at a University level). My friends had a solid manifesto with aims to campaign to bring student income above the poverty line, as well as continuing work they did in office to reduce carbon emissions within the university. The other team's manifesto was almost entirely unrealistic (as in, they made promises and targets in areas they had absolutely no authority in). Their main point was to do with making freshers week better (despite it being the most successful freshers week to date), and similar "improve the night life" points, none of which they would be allowed to do because their remit does not extend to such things. So I felt my friends had this in the bag. But they didn't. They lost. Despite being the more experienced candidates, despite being the more realistic candidates, despite beating their opponents hands down in the open debate, they lost. It then came to my attention that their opponents were "jocks" (or at least as jocky as you can be in a university). The University they are at is a small one, so personal connections can go a long way. Perhaps in a scenario where who you know doesn't account for as much, my friends would've won. Student apathy is another big factor (although this exists across all voting and public participation systems). In secondary school this problem existed. Positions like Class President and the like were reduced to popularity contests. Thankfully the position of school captain was a staff vote. I thought that the necessity for adult intervention would have dissipated by the time the teenagers had become undergraduates, but this does not seem to be the case. It may just be that my friends lost. I am bias to an extent, but I really do think they had the superior platform to campaign from. Having lived through the reign of some pretty awful student presidents who were there for a paid gap year, I really felt my friends could make a difference. So does anyone else think that democratic voting systems fail to produce the most appropriate candidates in small scale elections? Do alternative, superior systems exist that might produce better results?
Luckless
Luckless
I'm a firm believer in Democracy as a completely failed and useless idea on any but the very smallest scale (As in three, and it works the best when one is out sick and the other is away on vacation). It just happens to be easier to keep running or setup than anything else.

Personally I think the University should be able to over turn any candidate that ran on a platform that exceeded the power of the position they were running for. If someone wants to improve things out side the scope of the position, then they should form a group and lobby for the changes.
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Bregma
Bregma
Democracy is a terrible system.

All the alternatives are even worse.
Stephen M. Webb
Professional Free Software Developer
Mithrandir
Mithrandir
Quote:
Original post by Winegums
Positions like Class President and the like were reduced to popularity contests.


What in history has ever given you the opinion that popular elections were anything else?

Fun fact: Except in Bush v. Kerry 2004, every single US presidential candidate that has won the popular vote since the first televised presidential debate in 1960 has been the taller candidate.



"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." - Winston Churchill
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My signature is my best friend. It is my life. I must master it as I must master my life. My signature, without me, is useless. Without my signature, I am useless.
Wan
Wan
To be fair, having an extensive social network is a valuable asset when it comes to get things done. I'm not saying your friends aren't the best candidates. From your comparison they seem to be, at least when it comes to experience and common sense. But charisma can go a long way. I guess in an ideal, Sesame street like world, working together would be the best option.
_the_phantom_
_the_phantom_
Quote:
Original post by Mithrandir
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." - Winston Churchill


I like this quote, because it is true; however it doesn't negate the fact that democracy is slowly becoming worthless and we really need to find a new way to do things.

Granted, this new way would probaby see all those in power out on their ears which means it would never happen, but I guess we can all dream....
Mantear
Mantear
Democratic elections, by definition, are popularity contests. Whichever candidate is liked more, for whatever reason*, will get more votes and win the election.

*Ideally, the reasons are "good" reasons. The candidate has more experience, better ideas, etc. But nothing prevents "bad" reasons from having just as much influence. The candidate has good looks, has promised a lot of good things (without explaining how to actually get any of those good things done), etc. If only "good" reasons came into play, political advertisements wouldn't really work at all.
Koobazaur
Koobazaur
Quote:
Original post by Winegums
Despite being the more experienced candidates, despite being the more realistic candidates, despite beating their opponents hands down in the open debate


None of these, in themselves, make your friends the better candidates.


Also, what has been said - elections are nothing but a popularity contest.
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meh
meh
As far as I can tell this isn't a failing of democracy just that you don't like the result. Your guys might be better qualified but at the end of the day the electorate chooses who they want and that doesn't always mean the better qualified people automatically win. Losing and blaming the system seems like a cheap way of avoiding looking at the failures of the campaign.

Abertay or Dundee?
Trapper Zoid
Trapper Zoid
Ah, the joys of university student politics. At least your winning side had somewhat sensible goals - sure, maybe unfeasible for their power, but at least I can envisage how they'd improve student life. The main policies of the winning side in my first year seemed to be "fight capitalism", "fight the government" and to ban Mars bars campus-wide because Nestle were evil (I'm not making that last one up).

Our right wing group's main policies seemed to be to just tick the left off as much as possible. This led to bizarre situations where the main powerful left group would lead a massive rally to parliment house to protest in favour of students right to free speech. The right group would hold a counter protest arguing the merits of government limits on students free speech. The left group countered this by beating the crap out of them. It was at about this point that I decided student politics was too Twilight Zone to even bother following.

Finally, in my final year right wing groups managed to win power after they a) amalgamated into a single mega party and b) the left wing group failed to get it together enough to register for the student election. I lost touch of what happened specifically after that, but it wasn't too much later that the leadership of the right wing party were arrested for wide-scale fraud.

And bizarrely, it seems a lot of these student politicans go on to run for government...
Eelco
Eelco
roflcopter
d000hg
d000hg
Welcome to real life. Why do you think politicians kiss babies and visit sports teams, other than to gain popularity? It's sure not about their policies.
Winegums
Winegums
Quote:
Original post by meh
As far as I can tell this isn't a failing of democracy just that you don't like the result. Your guys might be better qualified but at the end of the day the electorate chooses who they want and that doesn't always mean the better qualified people automatically win. Losing and blaming the system seems like a cheap way of avoiding looking at the failures of the campaign.

Abertay or Dundee?


Abertay. I don't think their campaign failed, as much as the student body was apathetic towards the whole thing. In a small university knowing the right cliques can tip the balance. I don't see how a person abstracted from both parties could have voted for the other guys.

Quote:

None of these, in themselves, make your friends the better candidates.


I'd be interested in what you think makes a good candidate.


Maybe people should have to pass some sort of essay question based test before being allowed to vote...
capn_midnight
capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by WinegumsMaybe people should have to pass some sort of essay question based test before being allowed to vote...

Sure, you could call it a Jimmy McCrow law.
curtmax_0
curtmax_0
Quote:
Original post by Bregma
Democracy is a terrible system.

All the alternatives are even worse.


Are you sure? What about anarchy? Before you go "OMGLOLMADMAXMASTERBLASTER" go read up on it.

Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by WinegumsMaybe people should have to pass some sort of essay question based test before being allowed to vote...

Sure, you could call it a Jimmy McCrow law.


Lol
meh
meh
Quote:
Original post by Winegums
Abertay. I don't think their campaign failed, as much as the student body was apathetic towards the whole thing. In a small university knowing the right cliques can tip the balance.


Unless somehow you got the inside scoop on who voted, for whom and why I'm not sure you can really make that comment. You might suspect that popularity had something to do with it but it doesn't make it a dead cert. Phrases like, "I don't see how a person abstracted from both parties could have voted for the other guys," are the sort of thing your friends should be asking themselves. Why if they had such a killer platform did they not succeed? Blaming the popularity of opponents and an apathetic electorate just smacks of avoiding asking hard questions. Did your friends do any sort of exit polling at all?

How many people voted in total and what was the spread of votes?
ChurchSkiz
ChurchSkiz
The voters wanted a popularity contest and not surprisingly, the popular candidate won. Your friends either needed to play the game or show the voters why it would be better to elect a geek who can get things done and not Captain Cool. They did neither and lost.

Having a kick ass agenda and never getting the support to do anything with it is just as unrealistic as making promises that you have no control over.
Zombie Acorn
Zombie Acorn
It could be worse, the popularity contest could determine something like running the U.S....... . . .. .
Winegums
Winegums
Quote:
Original post by capn_midnight
Quote:
Original post by WinegumsMaybe people should have to pass some sort of essay question based test before being allowed to vote...

Sure, you could call it a Jimmy McCrow law.


Wish I got that...this thread is the first hit on google for that name (unless it's a combination of two other names...in which case I am truly snookered) :/

Quote:
Origonal post by meh
*snip*


My conclusion is a conjecture of the fact that they had no valid points to run on. They couldn't have been picked because they had good ideas, because none of their running points extended beyond making night life in the student bar better (an issue they have no authority on whatsoever). Therefore I can only asume they were voted in on one of the following:

i) Their friends voted them in
ii) They were deemed the lesser of two evils
iii) Everyoen voted randomly
Mithrandir
Mithrandir
Quote:
Original post by phantom
Quote:
Original post by Mithrandir
"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." - Winston Churchill


I like this quote, because it is true; however it doesn't negate the fact that democracy is slowly becoming worthless and we really need to find a new way to do things.

Granted, this new way would probaby see all those in power out on their ears which means it would never happen, but I guess we can all dream....


I agree, but I'm at a complete loss to think of anything that could possibly work better.

The idea of "benevolent dictatorship" always seems to pop up in these discussions as a solution but how in the world can that possibly exist for more than mere fraction of time before it inevitably becomes corrupt and anti-liberty?


In the end, rule by the people is really the only way to sufficiently prevent feelings of disenfranchisement which inevitably lead to frequent bloody revolutions. People can be dumb, people exhibit herd mentality and get outraged at the wrong things (re: raging at AIG bonuses that were a tiny fraction of all the money going to crooks over the current economic fiasco), but it's better than the alternatives.
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