Team name: Digivance Technologies - Copyright pending Project name: Working Name: Project MMOG Release Name: Still debating official release name. Brief description: Project MMOG is a massive game that encompasses many different genres of gaming. There is no simple way to define exactly what this game is all about or how it is played, but I have typed up a 21 page document that will completely define the concept of this game in its entirety. There are many ideas that are planned to be implemented in this game that are considered confidential, so this explanation of the game will only be sent to interested individuals that sign and return a non disclosure agreement. What I can say about this game is that it is a futuristic space exploration and conquest game to say the least. Players will fight and quest to raise their levels and become stronger as in most normal mmorpg styled games, but this is actually only one small portion of the game. Players will also be given the options to play diplomatically throughout the game as well, beyond the strength and accuracy of their guns they may also grow into strong leaders through faction rankings. I don't wish to give to much about the actual game away publicly but would like to mention that this game will implement destroyable mapping objects and even allow players to rule over territories within the game such as star bases and planetary colonies. This game will attempt to mix what I consider to be the best of the best in gaming along with the introduction of some new concepts that I am confident will both revolutionize and lead the online gaming world for many years to come. The story and quest lines will be written in a never before seen adaptable way that will actually allow the same quests to vary slightly allowing each player to devote countless hours into the game without ever getting bored of the same old same old that occurs in most every game to date. It is planned to keep a mixture of staff level and volunteer player level designers working on new content throughout the entire life span of this game so that new content can be added regularly. This is a newly designed project that is still at its early concept stages, I have done a lot of planning myself and will be publishing much of the content very quickly over the next few months. eg moving from my head and scratch paper to official documents. I am at the stage that I want to start building a team of dedicated and experienced members to start bringing this project to light, if you are interested please contact me directly so we can exchange an NDA and I can send you more detailed information on the game itself. Target aim: Project MMOG is aimed to be a retail game that can either be downloaded and subscribed to as a monthly fee or purchased from a store front. When purchased from a store front the player would be entitled to their first month of play for free. Compensation: Compensation for team members involved in this project will be in the form of profit sharing. Contracts will be provided to team members when the time comes guaranteeing their fair share of all profits made from this endeavor. A more detailed explanation on exactly how the profits will be broken down will be provided as part of the introductory information sent to potential team members after signing and returning the NDA. It is important to note that I am currently in the process of scouting for investors, loans and if possible some federal grant money. If successful this money will be used to purchase the engine license server hardware and begin paying for data center hosting fees when the time comes. Technology: Project MMOG is intended to be developed for many different gaming systems and computers. At this current time it is a definite that the game will be designed for Windows PC's, Linux and Macintosh computer systems. It is in my hopes that we will decide upon an engine that will also support XBox 360 and Playstation 3. As mentioned above in the compensation I am already working on ways to raise funds for the purchase of licenses for the engine and for the consoles. As for the engine that is not yet determined. I am hoping to go with the Unreal engine as it appears to be the best engine out there, although if investments and loans fail my second choice is Torque gaming engine. I am not completely set in my ways that these are the only two engines I would accept but to my knowledge these are the 2 best choices out there, I welcome any other suggestions. Programming of the actual applications that drive this massive project will be written in C/C++. The game will rely on scripting languages as well for many aspects of the actual game play. So far it appears that XML and LUA will be the most common and the required scripting languages for the purposes of this game. Talent needed: Project MMOG currently needs a full team, so far the team consists of just myself as the chief programmer and designer. I do have some friends in the business that may jump in and out to help in programming, design, music composure and concept art. I am however looking for a medium to large sized dedicated team willing to see this project through to the end, here is a list of the positions I foresee needing. Designers The designers of Project MMOG must be very creative as they will be responsible for helping with numerous aspects of game concept. Everything from quests and story lines to character and item creation. Modelers Many 3D modelers will be required for this project. Project MMOG will have a massive universe filled with many planets, star bases, space ships and alien races. 3D Modelers will be responsible for turning the concept art and definitions of things that are provided by the designers into usable 3D objects that the programmers can use inside the game itself. Music & Sound Composers I am hoping to get at least a few individuals talented in various genres of musical composition. Due to the complexity and size of the universe we will be creating it is only fitting that we have an extremely large soundtrack. A wide range of music and sound effects will be needed to reflect the different races and factions of the games, such a wide range I wouldn't dream of burdening only one individual with this task. Vocalists I don't have any better term to name this particular position, this is people that will actually provide voices for our NPC's. Many NPC's will talk as characters come within close contact and most if not all quest givers will also speak as they offer their quests. To accomplish this we will need a wide range of vocal talent, the idea here is to again get a reasonable number of people to do these voice over's. Programmers I am looking to get experienced C/C++, 3D Programmers and scripting experts. I imagine we may need a small army or programmers to get all of this massive project completed. C++ Programmers will need to be well versed in object oriented programming, use of third party libraries, dynamic library creation and linking, networking, threading and input capturing. 3D Programmers as I am calling them will be those who are experienced with using 3D gaming engines, they will need to be able to load and save 3D objects, control movements, if necessary collision detection, animation scenes, and particle engines. Team structure: As of this initial posting the team consists of only myself with potential assistance from a few fellow programmers, designers and artists that I know. This potential assistance is not guaranteed and they are not able to see this project all the way through to it's release. This is where you come in, at least hopefully! The team I am looking for will need to be dedicated to this project and interested in seeing it through to completion. Team Leader: Dan Mayor (Daniwan@Digivance.com) - C/C++ Programmer, XML Scripting - Concept and design Chief Designer:
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[MMO] Futuristic mmo looking for help
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Original Post
Greetings.
As as a bit of advice when presenting. I would take the italic font out of your written MMO proposal. It sounds like a small thing to nit pick but it makes the document a little harder to read. A clear Arial font without bold or italics will do the job just fine. :)
Cheers.
As as a bit of advice when presenting. I would take the italic font out of your written MMO proposal. It sounds like a small thing to nit pick but it makes the document a little harder to read. A clear Arial font without bold or italics will do the job just fine. :)
Cheers.
Agreed on the Italics thing. I will shoot you an email ;)
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As for the engine that is not yet determined. I am hoping to go with the Unreal engine as it appears to be the best engine out there, although if investments and loans fail my second choice is Torque gaming engine. I am not completely set in my ways that these are the only two engines I would accept but to my knowledge these are the 2 best choices out there, I welcome any other suggestions.
Two best commercial options, certainly.
Ogre3D is an open-source 3D graphics engine.
Why you should use it:
- It is licensed under LGPL. This means you can link against it without the necessity of open-sourcing your own code.
- With its vast plethora of features, there is really little you'd need to code yourself.
- The Wiki is chock-full of examples and tutorials to get you up and running quickly.
- Massive number of add-ons useful for many different situations.
- The community is by far one of the most professional and helpful online communities; the lead developer (nick Sinbad) often posts responses to help himself.
- Ogre is capable of rendering whatever your shader programmers and media content creators are capable of producing.
I strongly recommend you examine this graphics rendering engine. It will not solve all of your needs, but with various other technologies (OpenAL, ENet/Raknet/HawkNL, etc) savings in your licensing costs can be passed on to other avenues.
Good luck,
In response to using Ogre3D the is not a viable option at this point. I have experimented with Ogre3D and it simply does not provide enough power and portability for this project. Thanks for the suggestion all the same.
Apologies for the italic for those who find it harder to read, just thought it made the proposal a little more attractive to the eye. As far as the bold goes it's actually required by the moderators that you leave it in bold or make some other means to make the headings stick out.
Apologies for the italic for those who find it harder to read, just thought it made the proposal a little more attractive to the eye. As far as the bold goes it's actually required by the moderators that you leave it in bold or make some other means to make the headings stick out.
Your project sounds VERY ambitious. Good luck.
I would not even consider Torque for such a project, it's completely overrated and bloated. There are MUCH better options out there, do you research. Unreal Engine 3 is estimated to be around $750,000, do you really have that kind of money? And let's face it, with no previous commercial games under your belt, no one is going to be willing to loan you $750,000 for an engine.
Other than that little problem with your 2 engine choices, i think it's a good idea. Just make sure you think things through thoroughly. Then once you think you've gone through everything, do it again.
Other than that little problem with your 2 engine choices, i think it's a good idea. Just make sure you think things through thoroughly. Then once you think you've gone through everything, do it again.
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There is no simple way to define exactly what this game is all about or how it is played...
Historically, the best designed games can be described in a paragraph or less. If you can't describe yours in a paragraph or less, then either your game is truly more complicated than it needs to be to be fun, or you don't have a clear picture of what it's selling points are. Try working on distilling your game's basic game-play and purpose down into a paragraph.
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but I have typed up a 21 page document that will completely define the concept of this game in its entirety
I hope your user's manual is shorter. :)
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There are many ideas that are planned to be implemented in this game that are considered confidential, so this explanation of the game will only be sent to interested individuals that sign and return a non disclosure agreement.
An NDA, really? You realize that an NDA is only useful if you've got the financial backing to enforce it right? Also, even if someone violates your NDA, you'd need to prove it - which is harder than it sounds. And finally, even if someone violates the NDA and you can prove it, what are you going to sue them for? It would be very difficult to determine "damages" when the company generates no revenue and it's an un-established IP.
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I don't wish to give to much about the actual game away publicly but would like to mention that this game will implement destroyable mapping objects and even allow players to rule over territories within the game such as star bases and planetary colonies.
I hate to be the one to break this to you, but you've not thought of anything nobody has thought of before you. Between GDC, the Austin Game Conference, and every other bar-napkin conversation that happens every year I can say with relative certainty EVERY IDEA HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT. What separates your chance of success isn't whether you've got unique ideas, it's whether you've got the skill, motivation, and financial backing to bring your ideas to fruition. So worry less about your ideas leaking, and more about turning your ideas into a reality.
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This game will attempt to mix what I consider to be the best of the best in gaming along with the introduction of some new concepts that I am confident will both revolutionize and lead the online gaming world for many years to come.
Every aspiring new game developer has ideas that will revolutionize the MMO industry. But can you walk the walk? Can you make a game with your ideas, instead of just a forum post?
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It is planned to keep a mixture of staff level and volunteer player level designers working on new content throughout the entire life span of this game so that new content can be added regularly.
Out of curiosity, have you calculated how much money is actually needed to run a game company? When move from the happy world of open source, freely available games into commercial development you enter the big leagues. Have a business plan, including market research prepared before you move forward. And contrary to popular belief, MMO's don't make that much money once you consider payroll, taxes, server fees, ISP costs, operating costs, marketing, etc...Just make sure you've done all your homework before moving forward.
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Compensation for team members involved in this project will be in the form of profit sharing. Contracts will be provided to team members when the time comes guaranteeing their fair share of all profits made from this endeavor.
That time is now. If you're asking people to sign an NDA, and hiring them as "Independent Contractors" expect to get IRS Form W-9's from them all so you can file their income with each state's EDD. Oh, and if they're international, instead of from the same Country as you, expect to pay double the salary in international overage fees. You can't pay them directly, so you'll need to go through an intermediary. Also, expect to pay substantial amounts in accounting and legal fees. Probably $5k a year.
This all assumes of course that the government believes you when you say they're independent contractors. If the IRS decides otherwise, you'll be stuck with fines, and since you'll have "employees" in multiple states, expect each state you do have employees in to go after you for not paying State Franchise Taxes. And...if you're paying franchise tax and have employees in the state, that's generally good enough to establish nexus in those states, so you'll also be responsible for collecting and filing sales tax in all of those states.
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Project MMOG is intended to be developed for many different gaming systems and computers. At this current time it is a definite that the game will be designed for Windows PC's, Linux and Macintosh computer systems. It is in my hopes that we will decide upon an engine that will also support XBox 360 and Playstation 3.
Why do this? PC, Linux, and Macintosh in general have different UI framework's. (Save for Qt, etc...) It's hard enough making the game once...you want to add building multiple clients into the mix as well? Just start with one, and then expand from there. Creating the application subsystem isn't the hardest challenge you'll face, not even close, but why make it more difficult than it has to be initially?
Also, even if you can somehow get a hold of an engine that has binaries for the Xbox 360 or PS3, you won't be able to publish on those platforms so it won't matter. Microsoft, last I heard, charges about $10 grand per DevKit for their XDK. Sony's is more, like $25k. And the problem isn't payment. The problem is Microsoft and Sony will only offer you DevKits if you've got a proven track-record and a more-or-less developed game. Not to mention that developing for consoles adds a whole new world of hurt. While the Xbox 360 is largely a "PC", the PS3 is not. It's a multi-core nightmare, with horrid documentation. Furthermore, assuming all of the above turns out in your favor, you've now successfully added Submission Guidelines to your list of "to-do's" as both Microsoft and Sony have a 10-page list of guidelines that must be signed off on before your game can be published.
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I have dabbled a lot in gaming, although never attempted a complete project.
... wtf? "I've never really accomplished anything as a game programmer...what the hell, I'll make a commercial MMO. Who's with me?!?"
In general I disagree with the general concensus. I think a single programmer and a small team of people can make an MMO. That is, assuming they've got the talent, motivation, and previous experience to do so. We know you lack the experience, the only question is whether you've got the talent and motivation. In my professional opinion, you need to aim lower. If you really want to succeed, make a commecial, single-player RPG first, then move on to an MMORPG. Not only will you have established yourself as someone who can finish what you start, but you'll be more likely to get funding when you really need it. As well, you'll have established an IP which people are familiar with. And finally, it'll give you a chance to get your feet wet running a business when there's less time and money on the line.
Good luck!!
Engine Update:
I am seeing a more suggestions as to using Ogre3D for the gaming engine. I must admit that my previous experience with Ogre3D was over a year ago, I was impressed with the quality for being open source but was told it would not be a good commercial choice by many members on this site. I will reopen my eyes to Ogre3D giving it another look and would like to hear any and all comments that readers may have to the benefit's a draw back's of using this engine for a very large commercial project.
As far as funding for a commercial engine such as Unreal, I do have a fair sum saved myself and a contact that can get me the engine at a large discount. I understand it's very hard for people to believe that it is possible for a newly forming game company can get their hands on the Unreal engine but if that truly is the only choice that can power this game as it needs I assure you I can acquire a license.
Irrlicht has also been brought up as a potential engine. I have read over some of it's documentation and personally am not a fan of its object layouts. If I where to choose an open source engine right now the choice would undoubtably be Ogre3D.
I have seen a response that Torque is overrated and bloated. I must say this is not the first time I've heard this. If more people are familiar with Torque can chime in on the subject I would love more feedback to help in making a good educated selection.
As a side note we would of course modify and rebuild the engine to fit the needs of this particular project. I would also like to hear from anyone who has modified Ogre3D before on what they think.
~ Thanks
Dan Mayor
[Edited by - Subinac on April 5, 2009 9:43:26 PM]
I am seeing a more suggestions as to using Ogre3D for the gaming engine. I must admit that my previous experience with Ogre3D was over a year ago, I was impressed with the quality for being open source but was told it would not be a good commercial choice by many members on this site. I will reopen my eyes to Ogre3D giving it another look and would like to hear any and all comments that readers may have to the benefit's a draw back's of using this engine for a very large commercial project.
As far as funding for a commercial engine such as Unreal, I do have a fair sum saved myself and a contact that can get me the engine at a large discount. I understand it's very hard for people to believe that it is possible for a newly forming game company can get their hands on the Unreal engine but if that truly is the only choice that can power this game as it needs I assure you I can acquire a license.
Irrlicht has also been brought up as a potential engine. I have read over some of it's documentation and personally am not a fan of its object layouts. If I where to choose an open source engine right now the choice would undoubtably be Ogre3D.
I have seen a response that Torque is overrated and bloated. I must say this is not the first time I've heard this. If more people are familiar with Torque can chime in on the subject I would love more feedback to help in making a good educated selection.
As a side note we would of course modify and rebuild the engine to fit the needs of this particular project. I would also like to hear from anyone who has modified Ogre3D before on what they think.
~ Thanks
Dan Mayor
[Edited by - Subinac on April 5, 2009 9:43:26 PM]
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Microsoft, last I heard, charges about $10 grand per DevKit for their XDK.
What about XNA Game Studio...!?
Btw, good luck with your project.
I develop games for browsers, I do not know game programming stuff, as I am a eBusiness Consultant, how ever I can provide:
Assistance on mathematical abstraction for providing features (like organizing concepts used in the game etc.)
And I am quite talented in writing interesting and intriguing, yet intelligent and original stories.(I believe I can help you mostly on this part)
Assistance on mathematical abstraction for providing features (like organizing concepts used in the game etc.)
And I am quite talented in writing interesting and intriguing, yet intelligent and original stories.(I believe I can help you mostly on this part)
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Original post by Subinac
In response to using Ogre3D the is not a viable option at this point. I have experimented with Ogre3D and it simply does not provide enough power and portability for this project. Thanks for the suggestion all the same.
There's no true holy grail in developing for multiple platforms for starters.
You can look at engines like Unreal that support multiple platforms, but you simply won't be able to afford it.
Instead you can do a much more economical approach.
Graphics is just graphics and Ogre3D is quite similar in what other graphics engines can deliver you.
Infact, Ogre3D can deliver professional quality graphics if used properly.
Now you're worried about porting to other platforms, 1 word: abstraction.
What you do is, you create an abstraction layer between the graphics engine and your game code. By doing this you can create your game using an engine that doesn't require you to shell out any cash and you can still quite easily change it later on.
Now ofcourse, Ogre3D only does graphics. How to fill that gap? Havok or PhysX.
Both support all platforms you'd ever want to release on. And if you also wrap those behind an abstraction layer you're safe for the future.
Thinking about the future is important, but also think about what you can do right now.
Think how you can be prepared for the future while only using the tools available to you right now.
Proper abstraction solves most of that.
Build your game first, just keep the door open for other platforms.
Worry about the actual porting later, after you got your investors.
And remember, you won't get those investors till the game is pretty much done.
Some more about Ogre itself.
The source code is quite approachable, it's not too hard to modify if needed.
However, due to Ogre's design, you hardly ever need to change it.
Also good to know: with the way Ogre is designed, porting it to consoles is not entirely impossible. The only reason it hasn't been done is licensing issues, but dev-kit access for a console and a commercial Ogre license (which is not expensive at all) should cover those issues.
Ogre's developers are easy to approach and respond fast. This is probably the biggest pro of Ogre. If you're really stuck, you shouldn't find it too difficult to get one of the developers to help you out.
The only thing that's slightly disappointing is the state of most addons. Only a very small percentage is properly finished or maintained. With most of them you should expect to be doing some fixes yourself, but that's the price for free software.
You probably shouldn't have to depend on addons very much. Physics and sound bindings for example are trivial to create yourself and probably works better within your overall code design aswell.
[Edited by - Azgur on April 6, 2009 8:50:56 AM]
I would consider writing the score, but it's generally best to wait until there's a fairly complete game to play, or at least a demo.
Either way, you can listen to some of my stuff here:
http://www.myspace.com/artimusbena
Either way, you can listen to some of my stuff here:
http://www.myspace.com/artimusbena
The team now consists of 4 people, I have recruited a lead designer that I am working with to refine the basic concept of this game which is changing a fair portion of the original design. (As would be expected when progressing from initial proposal to an actual concept).
I would ask that a moderator please remove this thread, I am going to repost this project without the NDA and with more concrete information in the very near future.
To any who are interested we are still looking for all positions, still feel free to drop me an E-Mail, or contact me via im's.
-------------------------
~Dan Mayor
~Digivance Technologies
-------------------------
Contact:
Daniwan@Digivance.com
On MSN with same email
DigiDayor on AIM
DigiDayor on Yahoo
I would ask that a moderator please remove this thread, I am going to repost this project without the NDA and with more concrete information in the very near future.
To any who are interested we are still looking for all positions, still feel free to drop me an E-Mail, or contact me via im's.
-------------------------
~Dan Mayor
~Digivance Technologies
-------------------------
Contact:
Daniwan@Digivance.com
On MSN with same email
DigiDayor on AIM
DigiDayor on Yahoo
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