Sarkozy speaks out against burka

Yeh, fair enough speaking out against people who force people to wear things... but forcing people not to wear things is stooping to their level, not to mention insulting to people who *choose* to wear it.

so he must die now. How he dares speaking against something sacred?

btw, isn't sarkozy also the name of a desease?

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Original post by owl so he must die now.

It's sad that I don't know if you're joking or not...

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Original post by Hodgman Quote: Original post by owl so he must die now. It's sad that I don't know if you're joking or not...

Interestingly, when I type Sarkozy into the google bar in firefox, it suggests "sarkozy antichrist"... wtf?[grin]

Are we talkin bacon cheese burkas, or like regular burkas..

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Original post by Hodgman Quote: Original post by owl so he must die now. It's sad that I don't know if you're joking or not...

yes it is.

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Original post by bzroom Are we talkin bacon cheese burkas, or like regular burkas..

I'm pretty sure the very concept of a bacon burka will have you sharing a flat with Salman Rushdie.

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Original post by ChaosEngine French president Nicolas Sarkozy has said that burqas are "not welcome" in France. Part of me applauds his courage to speak his mind. Burqas are a symbol of Islamic oppression of women, but OTOH another part of me is gravely concerned about a government prescribing what people can or can't wear. While I personally find the burqa distasteful, no one is forcing me to wear one. It's possible that there are Muslim women in France who are being forced to wear it, but I suspect that the majority of them participate willingly.

I support freedom of speech, religion, and expression, particularly in the United States, however I must acknowledge that we are not faced with the same difficulties as France. The French are free to tackle their own problems as they see fit, and hopefully they will strive to keep to the principles of personal liberty as close as possible. That said, you have to realize France has a very large Muslim population, one which it has been arguably more successful at integrating into mainstream society than nearby nations. I think the French correctly see fundamentalist Islamic cultural practices as more than just pockets of individual expression, but a growing, parallel culture not compatible with French society, refusing to adopt the basic tenets of French civilization, and extremely counterproductive to integration efforts. It's high time someone took a stand and called out these barbaric, Dark Age customs, while asserting the superiority of European values and freedoms.

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Original post by trzy It's high time someone took a stand and called out these barbaric, Dark Age customs, while asserting the superiority of European values and freedoms.

Agreed, and at a gut level, I'd love to see him ban the burka. But that's a dangerous path. Right now, I happen to agree with/be not affected by this law. What happens when the government decides to ban something else they disagree with. There is a fundamental difference between asserting freedoms and values and imposing a ban. Society must ensure that women are not required to wear a burka, but equally they must be free to wear it (within reason, covering your face on a passport/drivers licence is ridiculous).


While we're talking about barbaric customs, how come no one ever mentions infant male circumcision?

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Original post by trzy It's high time someone took a stand and called out these barbaric, Dark Age customs

While we're at it, can you guys please stop talking to your imaginary friends in public institutions ;)

[edit]

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Original post by ChaosEngine Quote: Original post by trzy asserting the superiority of European values and freedoms. While we're talking about barbaric customs, how come no one ever mentions infant male circumcision?

Because that's a superior custom

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Original post by ChaosEngine Quote: Original post by trzy It's high time someone took a stand and called out these barbaric, Dark Age customs, while asserting the superiority of European values and freedoms. Agreed, and at a gut level, I'd love to see him ban the burka. But that's a dangerous path. Right now, I happen to agree with/be not affected by this law. What happens when the government decides to ban something else they disagree with. There is a fundamental difference between asserting freedoms and values and imposing a ban. Society must ensure that women are not required to wear a burka, but equally they must be free to wear it (within reason, covering your face on a passport/drivers licence is ridiculous).

Are they discussing an outright ban? Somehow I doubt it.

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While we're talking about barbaric customs, how come no one ever mentions infant male circumcision?

Good point. I certainly would be open to the idea of requiring circumcision victims to give their express consent for the procedure.

I think the reason circumcision isn't such a hot topic is because although it is an arguably unnecessary medical procedure, it does not promote social inequality, discrimination, and the restriction of essential freedoms. It's not an immediate threat to integration, equality, and social stability.

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Original post by Hodgman Quote: Original post by trzy It's high time someone took a stand and called out these barbaric, Dark Age customs While we're at it, can you guys please stop talking to your imaginary friends in public institutions ;)

Those imaginary friends are protected by the First Amendment and referencing them does not violate your rights. You also seem to have missed the rest of my post where I imply that it may be legitimate for a nation to be sensitive to its cultural institutions, values, and norms.

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Original post by Hodgman Quote: Original post by trzy It's high time someone took a stand and called out these barbaric, Dark Age customs While we're at it, can you guys please stop talking to your imaginary friends in public institutions ;) [edit] Quote: Original post by ChaosEngine Quote: Original post by trzy asserting the superiority of European values and freedoms. While we're talking about barbaric customs, how come no one ever mentions infant male circumcision? Because that's a superior custom

:)

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Original post by trzy Are they discussing an outright ban? Somehow I doubt it.

They're certainly looking into it.

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from the article I linked to Mr Sarkozy also gave his backing to the establishment of a parliamentary commission to look at whether to ban the wearing of burkas in public.

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Original post by trzy Quote: While we're talking about barbaric customs, how come no one ever mentions infant male circumcision? Good point. I certainly would be open to the idea of requiring circumcision victims to give their express consent for the procedure. I think the reason circumcision isn't such a hot topic is because although it is an arguably unnecessary medical procedure, it does not promote social inequality, discrimination, and the restriction of essential freedoms.

True, but it's still mutilation.

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Original post by ChaosEngine Quote: Original post by trzy Are they discussing an outright ban? Somehow I doubt it. They're certainly looking into it. Quote: from the article I linked to Mr Sarkozy also gave his backing to the establishment of a parliamentary commission to look at whether to ban the wearing of burkas in public.

Interesting. This is bolder than I imagined. However, if the state has the power to require people to wear clothes, why not ban them from clothes which impede their ability to participate in society, which are instruments of female oppression, and whose rejection invites harsh punitive measures that actively impede convergence with French social norms?

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True, but it's still mutilation.

Agreed. I think that it should only be performed when medically necessary on children who cannot give consent. In all other cases, I think it should require express consent when the victim reaches legal adult age.

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... but OTOH another part of me is gravely concerned about a government prescribing what people can or can't wear.

So you think governments should let people walk around naked in public?

... just stretching it from one extreme to the other.


For what it's worth, I agree with Sarkozy. I would disagree with him if he was dictating what women in Afghanistan should wear, but he's talking about France which is a country that he is completely within his rights to talk about and make recommendations for. I think that immigrants should leave behind some of their traditions when they move to a new country. I also don't think that burkas are a religious issue but a tradition specific to particular Asian backwaters. I've haven't decided if I agree with a ban (bans have a tendency to spread what they ban), but speaking out, voicing his opinion, stigmatizing burkas, I've got no problem with that.

In my opinion, both ChaosEngine and trzy hold extreme and oppressive views. How is "forcing" (maybe people force, but Islam doesn't force) women to wear a burka any worse then promoting the idea that women should be a size XYZ and should look good in some skimpy clothing and that women should wear said skimpy clothing? I find your narrow views to be barbaric.

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Original post by LessBread Quote: ... but OTOH another part of me is gravely concerned about a government prescribing what people can or can't wear. So you think governments should let people walk around naked in public? ... just stretching it from one extreme to the other.

Sure, why not? I can't say I'd always find it aesthetically pleasing and there are certainly situations where it's impractical, but I certainly don't have a moral issue with it.

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Original post by LessBread For what it's worth, I agree with Sarkozy. I would disagree with him if he was dictating what women in Afghanistan should wear, but he's talking about France which is a country that he is completely within his rights to talk about and make recommendations for. I think that immigrants should leave behind some of their traditions when they move to a new country. I also don't think that burkas are a religious issue but a tradition specific to particular Asian backwaters. I've haven't decided if I agree with a ban (bans have a tendency to spread what they ban), but speaking out, voicing his opinion, stigmatizing burkas, I've got no problem with that.

ok well how would you feel if Obama outlawed hip hop tshirts on the basis that they oppress women?

... just stretching it from one extreme to the other. [grin]



[Edited by - ChaosEngine on June 23, 2009 3:05:25 AM]

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Original post by GMuser In my opinion, both ChaosEngine and trzy hold extreme and oppressive views. How is "forcing" (maybe people force, but Islam doesn't force) women to wear a burka any worse then promoting the idea that women should be a size XYZ and should look good in some skimpy clothing and that women should wear said skimpy clothing? I find your narrow views to be barbaric.

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Original post by Hodgman It's sad that I don't know if you're joking or not...