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Original post by AngleWyrm That is one business model, but it is not the only business model. Perfect World is freely playable, and yet it is doing very well financially in these economically troubled years.

Sorry, I meant the majority of current MMORPGs. I'm aware of a number of games which are challenging MMOG stereotypes, such as A Tale In the Desert, which isn't based on combat at all.

Thanks for pointing out Perfect World, it looks interesting. If you're talking about the F2P microtransaction model, it's an improvement on the monthly/quarterly subscription model. At least you aren't paying for the simple right to play the game. I don't know much about Perfect World, so if it's an MMORPG which has done away with time-wasting activities like grinding and questing, I'd be interested in hearing the details. :)

I like that they make their money from selling virtual goods; imaginary equipment used in an imaginary world. The price of dreams.

One price I charged for equipment that I outgrew was the promise to pass it on. Isn't it odd that such a kindness is considered team spirit IRL, but is thought to be adversarial to world developers?

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Original post by Mythics I've always been a bit confused on several aspects of MMOs. The only one I was going to bring up in this thread was the amount of time so many of them require you to invest to do things that don't necessarily need to be huge time sinks. World of Warcraft is an easy one to pick on considering it's huge playerbase and monopoly of the market at the moment, so I'll start with it. Flight paths are a handy thing to improve travel time, are they not? I'm sure anyone who plays/played WoW would agree that the game would absolutely be horrid without them, but why is it you have to wait and watch your flight through it's entire process (easily 10 minutes in a lot of cases). If nothing else, there could easily be a button/option somewhere to skip the wait time during a flight. That's a LOT of time, completely wasted (especially if you've taken that flight before and seen that scenery before). FFXI would be another good one to complain of wasted time through game design, but anyone that has played it would most likely know of what I speak. The easiest thing to point out, and most notable for me while trying to play it, was the travel times. Walking was always horrid, distances needed to cross were usually vast, mounts were not achievable until a quite large amount of time was invested into the game, and I never noticed any kind of improvements like WoW's flight paths. Are these kinds of things truly limited due to design problems that are difficult to overcome because of programming limitations or artistic limitations? Are these kinds of wastes only tolerated because players simply expect them? Perhaps they only exist to increase the duration of time a truly dedicated player has to spend in the game before they've completed the game and/or grown tired of it? I've at least tried 10 or more of the more popular MMORPGs, and nearly every one of them has many many of these kinds of 'problems' in them. Any other thoughts/comments? I only gave two examples, but feel free to add more.

You seem to mostly be discussing travel times. There is a reason why MMORPGs force you to travel long areas. This is because travel is directly linked to the player's feeling of how large the game world is. If you can instantly warp everywhere in the world, the world feels very small. If you have to slowly walk across the world, that same world feels huge. MMORPGs typically have to represent an entire world, and not just a region or two like many single-player RPGs can. This is quite a burden on design. Developers have to balance out the perceived size of the world to the player's desire to get quickly back into an enjoyable activity. Believe me, though, the current trend is towards faster travel. Some younger WoW players who have not played older MMOs complain when they have a 15 minute flight. In games such as EQ and FFXI, an hour to an hour and a half travel was not at all uncommon.

I am sure there are other contributing reasons for travel in MMORPGs, but the most documented reason I have seen is world size.

I agree with jackolantern's assessment. I've read multiple times (and greatly agree) that it gives the world size and scope. I played through Diablo 2 many times and in my mind that world feels like it equates to about 4-5 WoW countries/zones. By that ballpark feeling/estimate, WoW was 4-5 times as large at release (not counting the 2 expansions released since).

While I played and enjoyed the Diablo play style and accepted the ability to port to a zone once I had visited the waypoint, it did absolutely nothing to convey a large, existing world to me.

I feel like there are games whose focus is purely gameplay. And then there are games whose focus is to create a virtual world. The second is where MMO's tend to try to position themselves.

In the real world, if I've driven to work from my house to the office for the past 30 years, that offers me no solace from having to make that same, tedious drive tomorrow. And in a world designed to mirror our own in many ways, that's a restriction that I feel is necessary.

Thank you all for the replies, I really like reading different people's perceptions on this kind of topic.

Regarding world size, how essential really is it for a player to feel as though the world is huge in comparison to actually enjoying the game and enjoying it quickly? I might be a bit narrow minded here, so forgive me if the answer should be obvious.

Travel is not the only subject I would have thought about regarding wasted time in these kinds of games, but it is the easiest to typically see. The other aspect that is usually the most prominent for me at least, is times spent waiting to join a group (or to acquire new members).

How many MMORPGs have group forming mechanics that are really that great to use? I always liked FFXI's method, but it is a VERY party based game which made it rather essential. WoW's on the other hand, I personally believe stinks. The last time I played, it was always a huge chore to find people to do anything other than raids or the like. I enjoyed WoW's dungeons very much, but most players are always in such a rush to just level with their characters, enjoying the game took a backseat to monster grinding/quest grinding.

What's the explanation for lack of high quality party forming mechanics? Perhaps more of an issue in most games, what's the explanation for encouraging solo play in a massively multiplayer game. I liked how Everquest 2 and City of Heroes/Villians have mentoring/sidekick systems to assist in this kind of issue, but should there not be a reason to actually play the content as you level rather than coming back to it later?

Again, sorry if this sounds more rant like than I intend, but I get pretty emotional regarding these topics considering they are what really prevent me from enjoying most of the MMORPGs that are out there (and I'd really like to enjoy them).

MMORPGs are a waste of time to begin with. The longer you play, the more money the company makes off you. If you play a singleplayer game -- You typically get better content.... minus social cooperation/competitiveness and chatting.

MMORPGs are obviously designed with long-term profits in mind.

Example: Leveling in a MMORPG might take months, a year, or even longer to reach max level. Some asian MMOs don't even have max levels. On the otherhand, I can play singleplayer game, and reach the max level in 20 hours.

I think flightpaths you mention from WoW, are just 'road blocks' to slow you down from experiencing the game content. To earn Blizzard another $15 month from you, and keep you playing long enough, to buy the next expansion. Yes, it would be funn if you didn't have to wait ten minutes, and for some of us.. ten minutes is 1/3rd of our entire daily gaming.

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Original post by Edoc MMORPGs are a waste of time to begin with. The longer you play, the more money the company makes off you. If you play a singleplayer game -- You typically get better content.... minus social cooperation/competitiveness and chatting. MMORPGs are obviously designed with long-term profits in mind. Example: Leveling in a MMORPG might take months, a year, or even longer to reach max level. Some asian MMOs don't even have max levels. On the otherhand, I can play singleplayer game, and reach the max level in 20 hours. I think flightpaths you mention from WoW, are just 'road blocks' to slow you down from experiencing the game content. To earn Blizzard another $15 month from you, and keep you playing long enough, to buy the next expansion. Yes, it would be funn if you didn't have to wait ten minutes, and for some of us.. ten minutes is 1/3rd of our entire daily gaming.

Before I try to defend MMORPGs, let me get this out of the way: Of course they are trying to get money from you. Every game company is. Every single-player game is trying to get you to buy their game and give them money. The boom in DLC is an attempt at getting more money from you for a game you already bought. These companies do not exist with the sole purpose of entertaining people.

As far as monthly fees go, it is a huge technical commitment to run an MMORPG. In an interview, and makers of Ultima Online actually said that they wish they had set the price bar at $24.99 instead of $10.99 (which eventually crept up to $14.99) due to the high cost of supporting the service. After you factor in server costs, bandwidth costs, GM staff costs (one of the highest of the bunch actually), community manager costs, etc., most companies are making about $1 - $3 off of each $14.95 subscription. For a company like Blizzard with so many subscribers, that is a lot of money per month, but many other companies are barely getting by, or not getting by at all (like Tabula Rasa and others that closed).

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Original post by jackolantern1 Before I try to defend MMORPGs, let me get this out of the way: Of course they are trying to get money from you. Every game company is. Every single-player game is trying to get you to buy their game and give them money. The boom in DLC is an attempt at getting more money from you for a game you already bought. These companies do not exist with the sole purpose of entertaining people. As far as monthly fees go, it is a huge technical commitment to run an MMORPG. In an interview, and makers of Ultima Online actually said that they wish they had set the price bar at $24.99 instead of $10.99 (which eventually crept up to $14.99) due to the high cost of supporting the service. After you factor in server costs, bandwidth costs, GM staff costs (one of the highest of the bunch actually), community manager costs, etc., most companies are making about $1 - $3 off of each $14.95 subscription. For a company like Blizzard with so many subscribers, that is a lot of money per month, but many other companies are barely getting by, or not getting by at all (like Tabula Rasa and others that closed).

If something cost more and delivers less, why buy it? Heh. Your argument about expenses of MMORPGs doesn't change my main point: MMORPGs are lower quality games... and less affordable than singleplayer.

Secondly, I don't buy the company expenses excuse. Not to say MMORPG isn't costly but, see how many free MMORPGS are online? The cost to maintain these games are grossly overestimated. The initial and continuous development is the expensive part! GMs don't have to be paid (Many qualified people would volunteer, just for free month subscription), as for bandwidth cost, I've seen several games cover the expenses via advertisements, on their website. Most people who download from Blizzard uses the torrent-technology, so their getting files from other players, and saving Blizzard even more money.

Oh, I strongly believe if Ultima Online had monthly fee of 25 bucks(even during launch), they wouldn't have enough customers to stay in business.

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Original post by Mythics Thank you all for the replies, I really like reading different people's perceptions on this kind of topic. Regarding world size, how essential really is it for a player to feel as though the world is huge in comparison to actually enjoying the game and enjoying it quickly? I might be a bit narrow minded here, so forgive me if the answer should be obvious. How many MMORPGs have group forming mechanics that are really that great to use? What's the explanation for lack of high quality party forming mechanics? Again, sorry if this sounds more rant like than I intend, but I get pretty emotional regarding these topics considering they are what really prevent me from enjoying most of the MMORPGs that are out there (and I'd really like to enjoy them).

<disclaimer> I'm an EVE online fan </disclaimer>
Try EVE online! World size is immensely important to the economy of the game. The first mechanic being that in EVE, items stay in location X until a player moves them to location Y. This means that loot drops on one end of the galaxy don't exist on the other end, and someone has to spend time dragging goods from point A to point B. That makes some items more expensive depending on where you are at, or they might not even be available. People make tonnes of isk in game by playing off this fact. If they can quickly get goods from A to B, they can make a profit by selling them at inflated prices that other people still pay because they'd rather not make the trip themselves. It also means that there are trade hubs interspersed in space where people agree it is a good place to sell from.

Group forming in any MMO tends to fall into the realm of "find a guild". It isn't that making a PUG is hard, or time consuming. It is that a lot of people play the game singleplayer, and a lot of people play the same class because of that. It makes finding a perfect PUG really hard. It is almost always easier to join groups with "Medic LFG!" than "DPSes LFG!". In most games the issue is moot. You just have to find a guild that is online at the same times as you, and you have group members whenever you need.

The problem with MMOs other than EVE when it comes to guilds is that there isn't a defined role for characters who are the wrong level. Most MMOs punish incorrectly leveled characters through experience detriment, level-capped skills, etc. For games with mechanics like EVE's web/scrambler and ecm/eccm mechanics the situation is better. The skills are low level, but because the skill effect is 100% effective, it is meaningful to have low level players use it, since it frees up high level players from having to. For WoW, it would be like level 1 sheep being able to be cast on a level 99 elite, and have it last the full 30sec, but it takes enough mana that it is the only spell you can cast if you want to perma-sheep. Having level caps on skills (ie the level 99 elite is too high level compared to you for you to cast sheep on it) OR skills that are just less effective (sheep lasts 50min on a level 1 creep, and 2sec on a level 99 creep) makes it that much harder to form good groups. Everyone has to be the same level, meaning they all have to play the game just as often to stay at the same level.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you on some points, Edoc. I'm no fan of MMORPGs myself, but I think you have some misconceptions about them.

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Original post by Edoc If something cost more and delivers less, why buy it? Heh.

MMOGs don't deliver less (at least in all ways), they provide something unique that other game types simply can't provide - a real in-game community. It's no longer about just me, since it's about all of us. Many people play MMOs because they enjoy making friends online, taking part in guild activities, and coordinating with others within the framework of the game system. Personally, I've found working with a group of like-minded players in an MMORPG to be some of the most fun times I've ever had playing a game.

At the same time, you're right. This allows them to justify having worse gameplay. If the community's the thing, they don't have to work on providing a good game system.

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Your argument about expenses of MMORPGs doesn't change my main point: MMORPGs are lower quality games... and less affordable than singleplayer.

You're painting with a broad brush there! Yes, MMORPGs as many of them stand exhibit poor gameplay mechanics. But that isn't a fault of the genre itself. I believe there's a lot of untapped potential in this type of game - but it would require an overhaul of the foundations of how they work.

Affordability is purely based on the choice of the developers and publishers; the fact that it's an MMORPG has no inherent effect on the price you pay to play. It would be like saying all platformers cost less than other games because they're platformers. :P

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Secondly, I don't buy the company expenses excuse. Not to say MMORPG isn't costly but, see how many free MMORPGS are online? The cost to maintain these games are grossly overestimated. The initial and continuous development is the expensive part!

The majority of costs come from keeping the server and websites alive, paying for bandwidth, staff wages and other operational costs. The bigger the game is, the higher the cost since the operation to run it is larger. There's a big one-off cost in development before release of course, but the aim is to keep the game alive long enough to recoup your costs to some degree. Continuous development is an optional choice they make, so they bring that cost upon themselves.

As for F2P MMOGs, they make their money through microtransactions and investment or sponsorship. It's not like they're actually doing it for free, or even at a low running cost. The only really free MMOGs are private servers, which are run by hobbyists - and then they don't provide anywhere near the immersion (in terms of numbers of active players) and service you get from the real deal.

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GMs don't have to be paid (Many qualified people would volunteer, just for free month subscription)

Oh boy. So instead of paying wages, we'll just make a loss on your behalf. :) Besides, money talks - if you want reliable GMs in a professional online game, you need to have some control over them. Firing someone is a bigger deal when there's money involved.