Re: "common knowledge doesn't make it true"
It doesn't make it false either. Did you even do the simple google search, and read any of the accounts? If you don't cover your eyes/ears and actually do your homework, you might find that it really is true that both sides mercilessly kill each other...
Re: "an unfortunate mistake"
Yes it could be a mistake, but the ROE says that it's acceptable conduct to shoot anyone they want nonetheless.
Re: "there are rapists/murderers, but you don't blame the government"
The government doesn't condone rape/murder, so that's not at all relevant. In the case you're arguing against, the government (and/or their employees) does condone/allow/order the murders in question...
Re: Similarities to American occupations of Germany/Iraq.
I'm sorry, was America once the same nation as Germany, and are only separate now due to an unresolved, unfinished civil war? No? Then maybe it's not actually that simple!
Re: military going into Gaza should be the same as it going into Tel Aviv
Except that the civilians in only one of those places are governed by martial law. So if the military were to roll into Tel Aviv, they'd have a different ROE. Obviously not the same thing.
Re: "any terrorism should be punished according to Israeli law"
Right. So how come they choose to use collective punishment against 1.5M people instead?
Re: "Would you care to provide an example of such legal discrimination"
Banning of Arabs from politics (overturned, but only after taking the fight to the highest levels). You could have answered that yourself if you read some of the links I gave you...
Re: "Didn't you say "they aren't afraid to use them"?"
Didn't you cut off half my quote where I explained my opinion on that statement?


Gil, what point are you trying to make with your irrational trolling?
Are you even going to read about the complexities of this off-topic conflict, or just be content with your ignorance?

Why not just read some more about the conflict? You might learn something!

Ok, fine. Deny that civilians are killed for no reason, deny their laws/ROE allows these killings to occur, deny there is an apartheid, deny the segregation, deny that an unresolved civil-war is complicated, deny the losing side of that war are repressed, deny the racism... Everything is black and white. The allies of the USA are the good guys, and everyone else is a terrorist. Gotcha.

If you remember, this specific example of a country with racial repression was brought up to show that Iraq's repression is not unique, and thus not really a reason for the 2003 war.
If you're going deny that there is any repression in Israel, we can use a different country instead (one that you're not so fanatic about) in order to get back on topic!

Quote: Original post by Hodgman
Did you even do the simple google search, and read any of the accounts? If you don't cover your eyes/ears and actually do your homework, you might find that it really is true that both sides mercilessly kill each other...

No, I didn't have to do a google search, I actually read these accounts as they come up. What I see is that basically, the israeli army tries to be as careful as possible (to the extent of putting themselves at a disadvantage) to avoid hitting someone by mistake. Maybe not because they care so much about palestinians themselves, but more so that european countries do not rise the stink, but still. Despite all that, mistakes sometimes happen. And, of course, there are bad people, who sometimes do bad things. People like that exist in all countries and all situations, including war. But I didn't notice that, for example, the number of such incidents is higher with israeli army compared to the US army, for example. Or any other army in a conflict, for that matter. So yes, the accounts exist, for israeli army as for any other, but a small number of such accounts seems to be inevitable.

Quote: Original post by Hodgman
Yes it could be a mistake, but the ROE says that it's acceptable conduct to shoot anyone they want nonetheless.

Is it what the actual ROE says, or is it what one guy told one journalist what the ROE says? If the former, could you support this assertion somehow?

Quote: Original post by Hodgman
The government doesn't condone rape/murder, so that's not at all relevant. In the case you're arguing against, the government (and/or their employees) does condone/allow/order the murders in question...

Seriously? Do you have a link to a speech by israeli PM or chief of staff or some other government representative saying that they condone murdering civilians? If not, what are you basing your assertions on?

Quote: Original post by Hodgman
I'm sorry, was America once the same nation as Germany, and are only separate now due to an unresolved, unfinished civil war? No?

Israel was never the same nation as Palestine either. They were formed as separate countries. Many israeli citizens were not even born in Israel. So, except for the occupation, they were never the same nation either.

Quote: Original post by Hodgman
Except that the civilians in only one of those places are governed by martial law.

Again, lets decide whos government should rule in Palestine. Do you think it should be the israeli government? Then, sure, I agree, it doesn't make sense for palestinians to be treated by martial law. Instead, they should be treated by israeli law, which means no separate elections, disarming and disbanding palestinian police, levying taxes, israeli army service, and all convicted terrorists serving their full sentences.

Alternatively, some people suggest that israeli governance should not extend into Palestine. That's fine too, but then it makes perfect sense for palestinians to be governed by martial law. After all, they are in an armed conflict.

Quote: Original post by Hodgman
Right. So how come they choose to use collective punishment against 1.5M people instead?

Actually, they didn't choose it -- palestinians did. Somehow, they didn't like israeli governance and decided to separate. Go figure.

Quote: Original post by Hodgman
Banning of Arabs from politics

What are you talking about?

Quote: Original post by Hodgman
Gil, what point are you trying to make with your irrational trolling?

I'm not trying to prove anything, I just was surprised by your initial assertion about racial segregation in Israel, and now by your additional statements about official discrimination of israeli Arab citizens. So I'm trying to figure it out.

Quote: Original post by Hodgman
Are you even going to read about the complexities of this off-topic conflict, or just be content with your ignorance?

What makes you think I'm not familiar with the complexities of this conflict? Is it just the fact that I didn't agree with your view of the situation?

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom

Quote: Original post by Hodgman
To this day, Palestinians still have their property stolen/destroyed at will if it is deemed in the interest of the state Israel, there's plenty of documented deliberate (and accidental) killings of Palestinian civilians by the Israeli military

Do you have any recent examples of this in mind (not the accidental killings, obviously)?

Not to preclude Hodgman's response, but a person can learn a lot from reading Israeli newspapers. For example...

Israel stripped thousands of Jerusalem Arabs of residency in 2008

EU envoys: Israel trying to sever East Jerusalem from West Bank

Both of those articles were published today. I'm sure a bit of digging would turn up many many more.

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom

Quote: Original post by Hodgman
and any Palestinians lucky enough to be able to travel or live inside of Israel are stuck in apartheid -- they don't have access to the same services, they have to use different colored license plates so they can be easily discriminated against, and they're governed by martial law instead of the civil judicial system. In other words, they have no rights.

Isn't that because the Palestinian state is not a part of Israel and thus palestinians are treated just like any other foreigners?

The Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 spells out Israel's obligations as the occupying power of Palestinian territory. According to this account, Israel is failing to meet those obligations. See also: Does Israel Mistreat Palestinian Child Prisoners?, Israeli ex-soldiers expose abuse of Palestinians, ...

Palestinians living in Israel are typically Israeli citizens, not foreigners. That doesn't prevent them from suffering discrimination or ill treatment.

Poll: Nearly 50% of Israeli Jews don't want to live near Arabs (2008)

Olmert: Israeli Arabs have long suffered discrimination (2008)

Anti-Arab Racism and Incitement in Israel (2008)

Quote: Original post by Gil Grissom

Quote: Original post by Hodgman
plus they actually do have chemical, biological and nuclear weapons and aren't afraid to use them.

Again, do you have a recent example of Israel using chemical/biological/nuclear weapons? If not, then what is this assertion based on?

To the extent that White Phosphorus counts as a chemical weapon, look to the Gaza Massacre from the beginning of this year. The photographic evidence of WP use against civilians is damning. And then there's the Goldstone Report (available here), which most of the world accepts as valid. In Gaza, Israel applied the "Dahiya Doctrine" (ANALYSIS / Who is really winning the war in the Gaza Strip?, The Dahiya Strategy and Gaza: Unlessons of the Second Lebanon War, The Dahiya strategy: Israel finally realizes that Arabs should be accountable for their leaders’ acts). The "Dahiya Doctrine" boils down to a justification for war crimes. More to the point of your question, Arab nations accused Israel of using depleted uranium in Gaza (Arabs: Israel ammo in Gaza had depleted uranium, 'IDF ammo in Gaza had depleted uranium'). Israel denies it. The IAEA said it would look into it (IAEA to look into Gaza uranium ammunition claim). It doesn't appear to have followed up as promised.

See also...

Iran and Israel's Nuclear Weapons
Chemical and Biological Weapons in the Middle East
Chemical and Biological Weapons: Possession and Programs Past and Present
Israeli and Syrian Weapons of Mass Destruction



One more thing...

Israel's Chemical Weapons On June 10th, 2004, the two clinics in Al-Zawiya treated 130 patients for gas inhalation. The patients were children, women, old people and young men. Dr. Abu Madi related that there was a high number of cases of [tetany], spasm in legs and hands, connected to the nervous system. Pupils were dilated. … Other symptoms included shock, semi-consciousness, hyperventilation, irritation and sweating."






[Edited by - LessBread on December 2, 2009 11:50:46 PM]

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Israel stripped thousands of Jerusalem Arabs of residency in 2008

If you read not just the title, but the article itself, you'll see that it says something about a routine check of residency requirements. So it sounds a bit like deportation of illegal workers or revokation of visas of people who overstayed.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Palestinians living in Israel are typically Israeli citizens, not foreigners.

These are usually called israeli Arabs, to distinguish them from palestinians, who are the citizens of the proposed palestinian state.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
That doesn't prevent them from suffering discrimination or ill treatment.

Poll: Nearly 50% of Israeli Jews don't want to live near Arabs (2008)
Olmert: Israeli Arabs have long suffered discrimination (2008)
Anti-Arab Racism and Incitement in Israel (2008)

Sure, there is discrimination agains arabs in Israel. This, by itself, is not something unusual. There is discrimination against arabs, and jews, and blacks, and women, and gay people, and elderly people, in every country in the world. Hodgman, however, mentioned government-endorsed discrimination of israeli Arabs. Your links don't cover that.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
To the extent that White Phosphorus counts as a chemical weapon

It's not a chemical weapon. A chemical weapon would be something like sarin.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
More to the point of your question, Arab nations accused Israel of using depleted uranium in Gaza

Somehow, it doesn't sound very convincing.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
The Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 spells out Israel's obligations as the occupying power of Palestinian territory. According to this account, Israel is failing to meet those obligations.

Is there an official report about this (preferably recent, if this is an ongoing problem), or is it just this guy's private opinion?

Quote: Original post by LessBread
See also: Does Israel Mistreat Palestinian Child Prisoners?, Israeli ex-soldiers expose abuse of Palestinians, ...

Again, that's not something unusual. In any country, some soldiers, prison guards, policemen, and other authority figures will abuse and mistreat their subordinates. Is there any reason to believe that of all countries, Israel endorses this behavior of its citizens?

Show me that it doesn't.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Show me that it doesn't.

In other words, you don't have any evidence showing that israeli government condones killing of palestinian civilians. You just believe that it does. Right?

In other words, I'm signing off for the night. The evidence that the Israeli government condones killing of Palestinian civilians is obvious from years of not holding it's soldiers to account for killing Palestinian civilians. Who ordered the white phosphorus shelling of Gaza and why haven't they been brought to trial? Who ordered the attacks on ambulances in Gaza and why haven't they been brought to trial? Who ordered the attacks on banks in Lebanon and why haven't they been brought to trial? ...

Quote: Original post by LessBread
The evidence that the Israeli government condones killing of Palestinian civilians is obvious from years of not holding it's soldiers to account for killing Palestinian civilians.

On the contrary, they do hold their soldiers accountable when the soldiers do something bad (like in the links Hodgman gave).

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Who ordered the white phosphorus shelling of Gaza and why haven't they been brought to trial?

Why should they have? White phosphorus is not a banned substance.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Who ordered the attacks on ambulances in Gaza and why haven't they been brought to trial?

Again, why should they have? They claim the ambulances were used to smuggle terrorists.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
Who ordered the attacks on banks in Lebanon and why haven't they been brought to trial? ...

And yet again, why should they have? They were at war with Lebanon and that's what happens at war. In fact, I think that's one of the examples where the israeli army held back to the extent that they endangered their citizens and soldiers. For example, they largely avoided bombing civilian houses even though it was evident that militants were using these houses for shelter.

Quote: Original post by LessBread
In other words, I'm signing off for the night. The evidence that the Israeli government condones killing of Palestinian civilians is obvious from years of not holding it's soldiers to account for killing Palestinian civilians. Who ordered the white phosphorus shelling of Gaza and why haven't they been brought to trial? Who ordered the attacks on ambulances in Gaza and why haven't they been brought to trial? Who ordered the attacks on banks in Lebanon and why haven't they been brought to trial? ...

You mean a trial like that they made to Saddam? That would totally screw them up.

Wouldn't?