🔒 Locked

Dual wielding penalties

Started by speciesUnknown Feb 2, 2010 at 5:31 PM 18 replies 4.6k views

Original Post

Feb 2, 2010 at 5:31 PM

I want to implement a 1-handed / 2-handed system in my game for weapons. The game is a 3rd person perspective sandbox game, in the style of GTA3 and other games using that engine, populated by various zombies / monsters. What I have currently decided on: When they wield a single weapon (or a single 2 handed weapon) the LMB fires the weapon and the RMB causes the view to zoom. As the player fires, their cone of fire should increase, indicating by a change in size of the crosshair, which closes up again quite quickly. The higher the recoil of the weapon the wider the increase in cone of fire, per shot. What Im not sure of: As an extra gameplay element, I want the player to have to make a choice - if they decide to pack 2 Uzi's for example, they can pump out twice the lead, but there needs to be an advantage to using a single weapon. I've considered a few options. Firstly, I could give this an effect on accuracy. So with two weapons, twice the fire rate means twice the increase in cone of fire, and therefore twice the time before the cone of fire returns to normal. The second option I thought of seems to tie in well with the other controls. When they dual wield, I could have the RMB fire the second weapon, instead of zooming; in practical terms this means they cannot zoom when they dual wield. So again the tradeoff here is one of accuracy. Another option I considered is to prevent the player from sprinting when they dual wield. Against slower enemies this is a considerable problem; They wont be able to outrun an enemy when walking and may quickly become swamped. (I dont really like this option, since dual wielding generally means an increase in the pace of gameplay.) I've considered using the type of weapon the player has to decide their sprint speed, or their endurance. For example, if they decide to pack a light machine gun and fire it from the hip, they cant sprint for long, whereas if they pack a single pistol they can sprint indefinately. Any ideas are welcome.

mrchrismnh

Feb 2, 2010 at 5:49 PM

One thing that Everquest and WoW do is to only allow certain classes to DW. I also remember in San Andreas it would take twice as long to reload two guns, although there was a trick to get around that.

speciesUnknown

Feb 2, 2010 at 6:02 PM

I personally dont like arbitrary class restrictions like that, and I wasnt really planning on having a class system in this game. Rather, I was going to offer a choice of starting characters, each with different stats, such as carrying and endurance.

jpetrie

Feb 2, 2010 at 6:17 PM

I like the no-zoom restriction. You could also perhaps apply a fixed loss in accuracy when dual wielding, explain it away like "you can't use your other hand to brace your self and steady your aim."

caffiene

Feb 2, 2010 at 6:26 PM

Also keep in mind that in a setting with finite ammo, if you're firing twice as fast you can only fire for half as long before you run out of ammo. Its an inherent balancing factor. Trade off of power for duration.

Other than that, I like the accuracy options.
Nobody is going to be sighting along a gun while they fire another gun in their other hand... Removing zoom makes perfect sense.
As jpetrie said, theres also the fact that they cant brace themselves. I think thats probably covered under the double cone of fire increase, so thats a reasonable idea as well.

theOcelot

Feb 2, 2010 at 6:59 PM

I would do both: a slight increase in the size of the cone of fire, as well as not allowing them to zoom. There should also be some sort of reloading penalty; how the heck do you reload while dual-wielding, anyway?

doomhascome

Feb 2, 2010 at 7:22 PM

It's harder to control recoil of two weapons at once. Your center of gravity get's jerked all over the freaking place. And you'll have trouble reloading, on account of using your other hand for firing. Maybe you have to drop a weapon to reload the other, and the kickback is increased dramatically?

speciesUnknown

Feb 2, 2010 at 7:23 PM

Quote:
Original post by theOcelot
I would do both: a slight increase in the size of the cone of fire, as well as not allowing them to zoom. There should also be some sort of reloading penalty; how the heck do you reload while dual-wielding, anyway?

Ok, I think I've decided what I'll do.

1) Dual wielding prevents you from zooming.

This means that when you dual wield you will waste ammo, and I want to be very careful to tune the game so that ammo is scarce at times. This also makes the controls simpler. They can choose to fire only one of their two weapons, and I dont need to assign special keys for dual wielding, simply change the effect of the RMB.

2) When reloading, a single reload key [R] reloads both guns.

This means you have to wait for both to reload, and has the practical effect of applying a basic reload time penalty. You reload the left followed by the right hand weapon. It doesnt matter at this stage how you reload, since I dont have well animated characters, im using the cal3d basic sample characters who just have run and idle attacks.

3) The effect on recoil is such that the crosshair still returns to its tightest at the same speed, regardless of how you wield.

This means that the player will have to contend with the doubled recoil effects of both weapons.

4) No arbitrary stats penalties.

Aristic licence only goes so far. I dont see the justification in having an artifical effect on the player's stats; The practical disadvantages of not being able to zoom, and taking longer to reload, should be enough to give the player a choice between various options. The reload penalty, and the recoil effects, are a good mapping (IMHO) of real life into the game.

Iron Chef Carnage

Feb 2, 2010 at 7:39 PM

Seems pretty good to me. Modern Warfare 2 uses a similar system, where dual-wielding turns off the zoom feature and requires you to use the "hip fire" mode, with its associated penalty to accuracy.

Will you have detailed character stats, as in an RPG? You could have handedness play into it, so a right-handed character will be pretty accurate with the gun in their right hand, and far less so with the left. Also, you could let players who really like dual-wield "level up" their abilities until they could excel with both hands, leading to the highly desirable Gunslinger/Grammaton Cleric type character.

speciesUnknown

Feb 2, 2010 at 7:50 PM

Quote:
Original post by Iron Chef Carnage
Seems pretty good to me. Modern Warfare 2 uses a similar system, where dual-wielding turns off the zoom feature and requires you to use the "hip fire" mode, with its associated penalty to accuracy.

Will you have detailed character stats, as in an RPG? You could have handedness play into it, so a right-handed character will be pretty accurate with the gun in their right hand, and far less so with the left. Also, you could let players who really like dual-wield "level up" their abilities until they could excel with both hands, leading to the highly desirable Gunslinger/Grammaton Cleric type character.

The problem with RPG type stats is, the sheer number of them make the game harder to balance. Since this game idea is pretty one sided, with you against mainly melee creatures (I have no immediate plans for multiplayer) I dont see the benefit of a large number of stats, and I dont plan to use a levelling system unless the idea starts to prove very popular. (SOme people like the satisfaction of advancing levels.) I'm also not a big RPG player and suspect I wont be able to do it properly.

Rather, the player stats will depend on the loadout they choose; They can go for the heavy (full SWAT kevlar suit) medium (basic police issue stab vest) or light armour (trench coat and a cool looking hat), pack loads of weapons or just a few, and their overall weight has an effect on their movement speed and sprint distance.

Luckless

Feb 2, 2010 at 10:00 PM

I too would suggest going with the increased base cone of fire, and increased rate that is expands (You're not steadying with two hands, therefore you're less accurate.)

However I would much rather see a single fire button for simplicity. The few games that had one button for each gun was just annoying to shoot both. If they're semi-automatic then each time you click fires the 'other' weapon.

Another fun option is to allow you to dual wield different weapons, rather than just 2 of the same weapon, just 'two' single hand small weapons. If you include a 'strong hand' function, you could fire a .50 pistol in your right, and then a lighter .22 automatic with extended magazine in the left. Giving you good punch, with a covering spray.

Also allow the user to 'reload' the weapons one at a time. Hit R and it automatically starts reloading the weapon most depleted. If you don't do anything else then it also reloads the other weapon. However if you start firing before the second starts to reload, you continue with whatever the second weapon had.

speciesUnknown

Feb 3, 2010 at 6:00 AM

Quote:
Original post by Talroth
I too would suggest going with the increased base cone of fire, and increased rate that is expands (You're not steadying with two hands, therefore you're less accurate.)

However I would much rather see a single fire button for simplicity. The few games that had one button for each gun was just annoying to shoot both. If they're semi-automatic then each time you click fires the 'other' weapon.

Another fun option is to allow you to dual wield different weapons, rather than just 2 of the same weapon, just 'two' single hand small weapons. If you include a 'strong hand' function, you could fire a .50 pistol in your right, and then a lighter .22 automatic with extended magazine in the left. Giving you good punch, with a covering spray.

A memorable game for me which had dual wielding was SOF2. It used this system, but I found it irritating. If i packed an uzi in one hand and a .45 in the other, I wanted to do exactly what you say, but it wasnt possible. And when the .45 ran out (only 7 rounds in there) I had to reload both. Very annoying. Its clear to me that this is best achieved when there are seperate fire buttons, one for each hand.

Quote:

Also allow the user to 'reload' the weapons one at a time. Hit R and it automatically starts reloading the weapon most depleted. If you don't do anything else then it also reloads the other weapon. However if you start firing before the second starts to reload, you continue with whatever the second weapon had.

[/quote]

Its unusual that you want it exactly reversed from what I suggested... maybe separate reload keys would be a good idea. If this proves divisive I'll put an option in the preferences menu, and choose whichever is most popular to be the default.

Luckless

Feb 3, 2010 at 8:41 AM

Well, if you had a small magazine weapon in one and, and a large in the other, when the smaller ran out hitting the fire button just fires the loaded weapon as if you were soloing. (Could even give them a slight bonus as they use the empty weapon hand to steady the loaded. Half way between the Dual and Single.)

The goal really should be to limit the buttons I have to remember to press, especially if you want things to be fast paced. If I have to remember to press R and T to reload both weapons then I'm going to get annoyed when I go to start firing and remember that I've only hit R like I needed to in every other game.

When you go to reload, are you often going to want to reload a nearly full weapon? Or are you going to want to reload the one that is nearly out?

speciesUnknown

Feb 3, 2010 at 12:39 PM

Quote:
Original post by Talroth
Well, if you had a small magazine weapon in one and, and a large in the other, when the smaller ran out hitting the fire button just fires the loaded weapon as if you were soloing. (Could even give them a slight bonus as they use the empty weapon hand to steady the loaded. Half way between the Dual and Single.)

The goal really should be to limit the buttons I have to remember to press, especially if you want things to be fast paced. If I have to remember to press R and T to reload both weapons then I'm going to get annoyed when I go to start firing and remember that I've only hit R like I needed to in every other game.

It's becoming clear that this is an issue I need to resolve through a beta test. Having thought about it, I think ill default to a single press of [R] to reload both weapons, and perhaps have an option (enabled through a console command) to set it to the other option. My guinea pigs *cough* I mean beta testers can tell me which is the best.

Quote:

When you go to reload, are you often going to want to reload a nearly full weapon? Or are you going to want to reload the one that is nearly out?

My own reloading habits are such that I usually reload when its safe to do so, regardless of the remaining rounds in the magazine. Most games dont waste the rounds in the magazine you just threw away. You can repeatedly reload, fire a single shot, then load another whole magazine without losing any ammo.

My favourite, slightly humourus example of this, is one of the Medal of Honor games on the PC (I forget which one) Where you have a WW2 Lee Enfield rifle, which has a fixed 10 round magazine, loaded from 2 clips. You can load the magazine to 10 rounds, fire a single shot, and then reload. The animation shows another 2 stripper clips being shoved into the magazine. Despite this, your ammo supply will be depleted by just one round.

Luckless

Feb 3, 2010 at 12:48 PM

The point of "Which would you reload" was if you're doing a quick reload, and don't have time to reload both at once, so you can go back to firing with whatever was in the 'fuller' mag before you reloaded the depleted one.

speciesUnknown

Feb 3, 2010 at 12:52 PM

So, this is what I have decided:

* When the player packs a single weapon (either single or double handed), the LMB is to fire the weapon and the RMB is to aim down the sight
* Each time the player fires, their cone of fire increases slightly. This increase is indicated by a widening of the crosshair
* Each weapon has a different recoil stat, which decides how far the crosshair widens per shot.
* When the player dual wields, they lose their zooming ability. Now, the RMB will fire their secondary weapon.
* When the player presses the reload key, the default behaviour is that both weapons reload.
* As an alternative, I will give the player the option to have the R key reload the most depleted weapon first. This means that on a second press, the other weapon will be the most depleted.
* When the player dual wields, I will (despite what I said earlier) give a fixed increase in the cone of fire, so simulate the loss of ergonomics.
* When the user dual wields, the weights of both weapons are added together to decide how badly their ability to run is affected.

And just for fun,
* I wont restrict the player to dual wielding only with single handed weapons. Rather, it will be fairly impractical to do so. The weight will mean they cannot run, and their recoil will be unmanagable, but it will be FUN.

For anybody who thinks one cannot dual wield machine guns,

"> I present this video which is rougly how we brits perceive you Yanks.

Robert-Glen

Feb 6, 2010 at 6:41 PM

Just some quick ideas after reading through the thread:

* Dual wielding could decrease the speed at which the cone of fire returns to normal as it would take longer to properly focus again.
* Dual wielding could lower the damage range or chance for a hidden critical shot mechanic.
* Reloading while dual wielding could be done with players Holding 'R' then clicking either LMB or RMB to choose the respective gun assigned to that mouse buttons fire action.
* Dual wielding normally makes a player sacrifice the use of other items e.g. grenades, motion sensor etc.

Naxos

Feb 8, 2010 at 2:01 PM

If I were a player, I'd probably want to be able to switch to single-wielding when I want to get extra accuracy. For example, if I'm duel wielding, I'd like to be able to zoom anyway, except I'd only be shooting out of my primary hand (depending on whether I'm right or left handed, if that's an option at all).

One way to do this would be:

Single wield controls: LMB = fire, RMB = zoom

Duel wielding controls: LMB = fire left, RMB = fire right, MMB = zoom with primary hand only

Thus, while duel wielding you can temporarily reduce your firepower to gain increased accuracy.

Of course, anything larger than an SMG is still going to be difficult to shoot accurately with one hand, so maybe this is only an option if your primary-hand weapon is a light SMG like an Uzi, or a handgun.

way2lazy2care

Feb 9, 2010 at 10:37 AM

I find it's especially important to dual wielding that you don't under power it. With the exception of some of the dual wieldable shotguns in Cod4, a lot of the dual wield weapons are just inferior.

You could also look at other ways to benefit single-wielding so that dual wielding isn't gimped. In Halo for example, dual wielding loses the ability to throw grenades. I rarely dual wield in Halo because of that, but dual wielding can still be very powerful for people who aren't good with grenades, or even experts in a dual wielding mood.

speciesUnknown

Feb 10, 2010 at 12:26 PM

Quote:
Original post by way2lazy2care
I find it's especially important to dual wielding that you don't under power it. With the exception of some of the dual wieldable shotguns in Cod4, a lot of the dual wield weapons are just inferior.

You could also look at other ways to benefit single-wielding so that dual wielding isn't gimped. In Halo for example, dual wielding loses the ability to throw grenades. I rarely dual wield in Halo because of that, but dual wielding can still be very powerful for people who aren't good with grenades, or even experts in a dual wielding mood.

You've hit it on the nail here, dual wielding should be a choice that the player makes, instead of just a gimmick, so I cant 'nerf' their weapons when they dual wield, but at the same time I need to provide advantages if they dont.

I'm happy that ive found a good solution though. This was definately a productive thread, thanks to everybody who got involved.

Topic Locked

This topic has been locked by a moderator. New replies are not allowed.