Ditch !

.......

And the point of this thread is?

ok

Quote:

Original post by Hudaw ....... And the point of this thread is?

Good question. Is this an art post to show off the cool picture? Or is this a story post to announce a new story you're writing? Or is this a game design post and you're actually going to say something about the game?

Re:

Purpose:

The point of this thread is to see whether a dramatic structure naturally emerges and intensifies in a philosophical exploration, whether the setting can support interactive, open-ended game story free from the overhead in the designs of world building, backstory, events and plots.


Motivation:

If the message of a story is so important, why not focus on the message and ditch the extras that an author must create to turn a concept into a story?

Is it possible for the player to interact with the message directly?


Questions I face at this stage:

1) What is the genre of this design?

I put it as drama, but there is nothing actually happening in the story. The drama of the story happens in the realm of thoughts. The antagonists in the story are not people, but concepts and unknowns. These concepts can be visualized and personified, similar to how an author might materialize story characters. But in this game, the personifed concepts do not materialize to form coherent stories, because that step is unnecessary.


2) What game/presentation structure should this design have?

It is good to start with a plan.
The current plan:

0.1 - Start with a question
0.3 - List possible answers
0.5 - Commit to an answer
0.7a - End the game if that answer is not possible
0.7b - Turn the selected answer into a question and return to 0.1
0.7c - Proceed if the answer is the truth
0.9 - Backtrack to show the path of the exploration
1.0 - Completion: Answer is obtained

3) How should the game present a question?

Option A: Question statement
Option B: Narration
Option C: Illustrative cutscene

hmm....So is this open ended- basically a study of yours, or are you actually accepting thoughts?

Why 7a 7b 7c, why scale from .1 to 1 I am already sorry I asked...

Re: Hudaw

Accepting thoughts

Re: mrchrismnh

The numbers are the normalized timemarks in the course of the story. The times 0 and 1 denote the absolute begining and ending of the presentation. The numbering allows me to refer to an event in the presentation with some sense of where in the plot the event occurs. Usually a story approximately has this structure:

Time
0.1 - Introduction
0.3 - Planning
0.5 - Immediacy
0.7 - Climax
0.9 - Resolution
1.0 - Closing

The design as a game has three possible states during the climax. I was using the letters to distinguish them.

Structure of the story

[ State Diagram (PNG) ]

Here is the state diagram for the story. These are state that normally occurs when someone tries to think through a problem. I added two states for switching question the so that switching is managed within the story (as opposed to providing it as an option outside the context of the story).


The emotional/mental state of each story state

To present thought as a story, my plan is to assign at least one emotion to each state, and then create an emotion state diagram. I will first list the possible emotions of each state, and then get a diagram to document how each emotion may transit to the emotion of another state. An example sequence if bolded

State: Question Introduction
o Angry, Argumentative, Curious, Emergency, Mischievous, Motivated, Preplexed, Routine, Sorrowful, Wild

State: Answer Generation
o Alert, Casual, Confused, Creative, Devious, Meticulous, Stressed, Systematic

State: Answer Selection
o Confrontational, Confident, Disapproving, Distracted, Hesitant, Indifferent, Yielding

State: Revelation
o Confident, Contempt, Disbelief, Excitment, Grateful, Loss, Lost, Pride, Progress, Remiss, Resentful, Respect, Surprised, Worth

State: Conclusion
o Admiration, Ambitious, Growth, Hopeful, liberated, Satisfied, Unsatisfied

State: Question not answered
o Accepting, Defeated, Denial, Hopeless, Overwhelmed, Shame, Strategic, Understanding

State: Question Selection
o Avoidant, Casual, Courageous, Motivated, Unmotivated

When I first read the title I thought this was going to be a game about digging ditches. And the I saw the picture and I thought "hey, maybe he misspelled the D, when it should've been a B." After reading further down the thread, I don't know what to think anymore. :(

Re:

That is the right association.

Personality of the main character:
o antisocial, escapist, impulsive, individualistic, irresponsible, rebeling, repulsive, unfriendly

About the title:

When I was choosing the title, I wanted to choose a one syllable word that is modern and associated with something transient, illusive and rebeling. The character Skyle (that is still being created) is an illusive character that does not follow routines and rules.

Characteristics of the character Skyle:

o Hard to know because she doesn't talk about herself
o .. She changes the subject or leaves if the subject changes to her past
o Hard to find because she doesn't go to class, go to work, ...
o Hard to predict because she lets her mind leads her
o She is not a 'team member', she comes and goes at will
o She stays in the present, but comes from a different angle

The choice of "Ditch":

o it has only one syllable,
o it is associated with truancy
o it sounds rebeling

The role of Skyle

The plan:

The game is an environment that narrates the player's thought process with respect to an issue. The assets of the game include character Skyle, who expresses emotion according to the train of thought and to the dramatical stage. If Skyle is removed from the game, the "game" turns into a concept management tool.


The role of emotional transitions

The plan:

The purpose is to turn Skyle into an emotionally responsive character. Skyle's mood and emotion changes depending on the player's choices. The details of the presentation depends on Skyle's mood. It is done like this because it is harder for the game to guess the player's mood. When the game presents based on Skyle's mood instead, the presentation is consistent and the engine has the control of the dramatic flow.


Components of emotional transition

The plan:

Each emotional state has an association with one of the seven story states. A transition occurs when the story state changes. Story state does not change until the player makes a decision. The change depends on the current emotional state and the player's decision.


Defining the emotional transitions

The plan:

Start with the list of emotions and sample sequence, identify the reasons of the transitions and an alternate transition.


Transition 1

The first emotion in the sample sequence is being curious during question introductoary state, and transits to being alert during answer generation state:

[QI.Curious] -> [AG.Alert]

The first question I ask myself is whether this transition is believable. Is it possible for a person to be curious when they are introduced a question, and become alert when they try to solve it? When does that occur? I think these are some factors supporting this transition:

o Skyle understands the question
o The reward of answering the question is clear
o Skyle has not considered the question before
o Skyle has not answered the question before
o Skyle is confident in her ability to answer the question

For the transitions to be meaningful, the resulting emotion should change if the conditions differ. For example, I think that if Skyle is not confident, the resulting emotion may be [AG.Stressed].


Transition 2

[AG.Alert] -> [AS.Confident]

Factors:
o Skyle has a model of the situation
o Skyle knows that if the model is correct, the answer is correct
o Skyle has reason to believe that the model is correct
o Player chooses an answer she agrees

Alertnate transition:
[AG.Alert] -> [AS.Disapprove]
o Player chooses an answer that she disagrees


Transition 3

[AS.Confident] -> [RV.Worth]

Factors:
o Skyle is looking for intellectual growth (reward type)
o The answer is correct

Alternate transition:
[AS.Confident] -> [RV.Disbelief]
o The answer is very wrong


Transition 4

[RV.Worth] -> [CN.Growth]

Factors:
o Skyle answered a new question
o or Skyle used a new model to answer the question
o or Skyle applied an old model to a new question

Alternate transition:
[RV.Worth] -> [CN.Satisfied]
o Skyle used an old model to answer the question


Getting the full diagram

The plan:

Repeat this process for all the states and draw it.

---

Result:

It turns out that it is too tedious to draw a full state diagram for the emotional transitions as described. Therefore I made a spreadsheet and recorded the condition required for entering each emotional state. Right now I have 21 conditions that the game checks to select the next emotional state.

To tell whether the model is usable and complete, I need to simulate it using questions.



[Edited by - Wai on June 22, 2010 12:47:55 AM]

Classifying Questions

Class 1: Questions on Facts
o The game knows the correct answers
o (i.e. How many countries are there?)

Class 2: Questions on Logic
o The player evaluates whether a statement is true or false given the premises
o The game can evaluate the logic and thus knows the correct answers
o (i.e. If each country has a flag and A is a country, must it have a flag?)

Class 3: Questions on Schema
o The player is asked to identify the features of things
o The game tests the player's schema against the known objects in the group
o (i.e. What is a country?)

Class 4: Questions on Judgement
o The player is asked to evaluate options
o The game generates questions based on the player's schemas
o (i.e. Can there be too many or too few countries?)

Class 5: Questions on Motion
o The player is asked to create a change
o The game evaluates based on the schemas
o (i.e. How do you reunite two countries that are wrongfully split?)


Example:

The question: 'Will Ditch work?' belongs to Class 4. For the game to make judgement about this question, the player must first solve the Schema questions such as 'What is Ditch?' 'What is a Game?' 'What is Fun?'

When the facilitator character (i.e. Skyle) is in a normal mental state, she will generate the dependent questions during the Answer Generation stage.


The Set of Schema:

The objective of the player is to answer as many questions using as few schemas as possible. The player replays questions with new schemas to get shorter proofs.

---

Symbolism/Visualization:

The Seekers are the players.

The Set of Schema is presented by an icon. The player chooses the icon and gives it a name. The default icon of this item is a book. The concept of Schema is introduced in the beginning of the game. The player populates the content of this item.

The Guardian of Schemas is Skyle. The player cannot alter this character. In the metaphor, the Assistant guards the Schemas of all players.

The Forgotten Dream is presented by a shadow. The shape of the shadow changes depending on the questions. Skyle can see the shadows of predefined characters in the story but not that of the players.

---

The Plot

The plot is used to introduce the content of the game. If the player skips ahead, Skyle does not appear and the player can continue without Skyle.

0.1 - The Guardian
Introduces Skyle as an illusive character that runs away from life with no apparent reason. The player encounters Skyle in several odd occasions. In each occasion, Skyle gives the player riddle-like questions and leaves. The player solves the questions and decide where Skyle will appear next in the city.

0.3 - Schemas
Introduces Schemas when Skyle asks the player a question, and uses other objects of the same class to judge the player's concept of that object. When this exercise is completed, Skyle shows the player's Set of Schemas. The player names it and gives it a form.

0.5 - Forgotten Dreams
The player meets Skyle again. This time, Skyle is depressed and shows the player the shadow of a character in the city. Skyle needs the player's help to free that character. When the player succeeds in freeing that character, Skyle tells the player that has become a Seeker, and has the ability to see shadows of other characters in the city.

0.7 - Seekers
Skyle introduces the player to the set of unanswered questions of other Seekers. The player refines their own schemas and compare/collaborate with the other players. Skyle tells the player that since the player can guard the Schema, she no longer needs to be there. The player can still find Skyle in the City.

0.9 - Reality Itself
The group of Seekers finds reality itself.

1.0 - Ending

Are you using this thread as a wiki-replacement.

Also note this on formatting posts (the "to:" and "re:" thingy can be combined into [ quote ]-blocks, which have the other advantage of being visually more pleasing).

Re: The nature of the thread

Quote:

Original post by phresnel Are you using this thread as a wiki-replacement.

What is the difference between a wiki and a thread with content?

I know this is a thread because it has questions, and are open to responses.

The questions of this thread are still there:
o Is it possible for such a game to exist?
o What should it have?
o How do you go about designing it?

My perspective of the situation:

I post a question that I do not know the answer. Because I want to know the answers, I am also thinking about the solutions. People don't tend to reply when they don't know the answer. When the answers are well known, the replies are immediate.

So the situation is that anyone that can reply to to the content of this thread understands something about game design itself. Because the design is not common, I know that I need to explore its structure before it can be designed. I assume that those trying to reply to the thread are doing the same.

I know that in the story state diagram post here, a bottleneck of the design is the state Revelation. In Revelation, the game needs to know whether the player's concept is correct, but how does the game know that?

At that point (yesterday) I thought perhaps the game needs to know schemas. By using schemas, the landscape of philosophical exploration starts to take shape. Now I have a notion of distance between the state of unknowing and the state of knowing, the design becomes more manageable.

o What does it take to see the design more clearly?
o What is the biggest unknown of the design?


Re: When to use [ quote ]

Quote:

Also note this on formatting posts (the "to:" and "re:" thingy can be combined into [ quote ]-blocks, which have the other advantage of being visually more pleasing).

Although your post is right above, it is easier to tell what I am referring to isn't it? It helps to make each post self-contained. I didn't like to use quote because I didn't like how it indents the text. But I think it looks fine with a title before it.

[Edited by - Wai on June 22, 2010 1:20:19 PM]

Quote:

Original post by Wai Re: The nature of the thread Quote: Original post by phresnel Are you using this thread as a wiki-replacement. What is the difference between a wiki and a thread with content?

Wiki is to tell about a topic, or possibly a scratchpad for personal use. A thread is for discussion. Of course there can be smooth transitions.

Quote:

I know this is a thread because it has questions, and are open to responses.

This wasn't clear in the first few posts, especially the OP ;)

Quote:

but you can put a title into your quote Quote: Re: When to use [ quote ] Quote: Also note this on formatting posts (the "to:" and "re:" thingy can be combined into [ quote ]-blocks, which have the other advantage of being visually more pleasing). Although your post is right above, it is easier to tell what I am referring to isn't it? It helps to make each post self-contained. I didn't like to use quote because I didn't like how it indents the text. But I think it looks fine with a title before it.

Anyways, I am not going to further derail your thread :)

The biggest unknown of the design

Quote:

o What is the biggest unknown of the design?

I think one of the biggest unknown is whether the game has enough interesting and complicated questions. The questions during plot points 1, 3, and 5 are predefined. Therefore, Part 5 (Forgotten Dreams) has the hardest predefined questions. Knowing what these questions are will determine what questions Parts 1 and 3 ought to have to prepare the player for Part 5.


Adding Questions to the Reserve

Since shadows are related to characters. It turns out that the to create questions is to create characters that have conflicts they cannot solve.


The Mechanics of Helping Shadows:

The Player does not exist in the City of the game. The Player can only help the character by changing how they interpret their situations.

When Part 5 starts, Skyle singles out a character in the City and asks the player to solve it. The player solves it by matching the situation to a schema, and uses the schemas to derive a solution. Skyle gives the character the schema. If it does not conflict with any experience the character has, the schame stays, changing the character's perspective. The character is freed as a result.

If an experience rejects the schema, the schema does not stay with the character. In addition, the experience enters the player's Book as a fact and invalidates all schemas that conflicts with it. To counter this effect, the player needs to show that the experience is false, or change the schemas to make them valid with the fact.


Shadow #1

This character strives to be a righteous person and helps everyone. People only find him when they need his help. He has been betrayed many times and never consider himself to have any true friend. One day his only friend is in urgent need. In order to help his friend, he lied for him about his identity and trapped himself in continuous torture holding this secret.

Re: Character Design
Meegs's post

Character: Skyle

Skyle is a guardian of memories. She is immortally old, but was not awake until thirteen years ago when she suddenly realized that she existed. Ever since then, she has been trying to make sense of her existence. When she realized that she had the ability to enter people's minds, she decided to help although she did not know whether she should. She wishes that there are laws, but there is none. She thinks she ought to be Lawful Good, but she is Neutral Good with Chaotic tendencies.


Character body type: varies
Facial features: varies

Aspirations: Help people find and reach their dreams

Point of involvement:
o When the player starts looking

Signature abilities or items:
o Ability: Enter people's mind
o Ability: Puts people to sleep
o Ability: Dampens emotions
o Ability: Breaks a train of thought

Relationship to characters within the story:
o Relationship to player: Colleague of investigation
o Relationship to shadows: Silent advocate, helper

Who does she report or work for?
o Her own ideals

Where does she live?
o In the mind of seekers

What setting would she blend in most with?
o A location with many tourists
o Shopping mall

Does she have inner conflicts or mental issues?
o Inner conflict: Dealing with losses
o Mental issue: unable to think when too many memories are being archived

Shadow #2

Background

In the game is a city. In the city are characters. In some characters are unsolved problems called Shadows. The player disperses Shadows by letting the characters see themselves in a new light.


Shadow #2: The girl that doesn't smile

Since she was born, her father had been her primary care giver. One day at the dentist, the dentist recommended a simple solution to prevent her teeth from becoming crooked. It would save her from the pain of getting braces. Her father tried the practice, but it stopped when her parents got a divorce.

When her father saw her again, her teeth were growing crooked. Her father was disappointed that he couldn't be there. She saw that her father was sad. She didn't want that. Her mind decided that she could prevent that if she keeps herself and her smile from her father.

From that day on, she doesn't smile anymore.

Goals:
o Girl is happy
o Girl reconnects father into her life