Software Engineers.

In most of the surveys I've seen artists are lower paid than programmers (with equal experience).

Salary Survey Overview

I'm not sure what you mean by thankless. I'd probably worry more about what you enjoy than what pays the most unless you are really just interested in money in which case the games industry is the wrong industry for you to be in (as a developer at least).

3 steps to success:
1. Do what you love doing.
2. ???
3. PROFIT!

Everyone loves engineers. Seriously. Without them no one else can get anything done. I was an engineer at EALA for 5 years and it was definitely the best job I've had so far.

But it totally depends on what you find interesting. I transitioned from dotcom web programming to game programming because there wasn't enough challenge, math or complex programming in the web world. Game programming is very complicated and challenging and that's why I love it. It's hard and requires a ton of thinking and research and I get to use calculus occasionally! To me that's bliss; your mileage may vary.

Do what you love. If you want $$ definitely don't do games. You can make upwards of 30% more money in any other industry in the same role. If you don't love programming don't be a game programmer. People make games because they love games and love making them. If that doesn't describe you, please do me a favor and go somewhere else. Working with people in the industry that don't love exactly what they do sucks ass.

-me

You guys are fucking awesome! I love games more than words can describe, I just need to find my niche in the industry. Thx m2tm for the link, that answered my questions exactly, I really appreciate you guys being level with me. EALA is my dream job, so that's what I'm aspiring to. I love games, I just don't want to starve :\ thanks again, I'll see you guys down the rad hopefully.
-J

Yup, good luck! I'm new to the industry myself, I also transitioned in from web programming. I'm enjoying it so far even though it's only been about 3.5 months (such a noob). I do GUI programming.

M2tM is right: artists are paid less than programmers... And while I agree that you should be most concerned with how much you would enjoy a particular career path rather than how much it pays, I understand your concerns about landing a stable, well-paying job. (Especially in this economy!)

That being said, I will share with you my personal experience.

I graduated this past May with a degree in computer science from a small liberal arts university in Virginia. Several of my peers who graduated with business degrees from the same school are jobless--one of them even graduated a year before me and has had to take up part-time jobs to pay rent because he can't find a "real" job. On the other hand, I can only think of one person from our computer science department who has had a hard time finding a job, and it's because he's not a U.S. citizen. In this area there is a lot of government contracting, so not being able to get a security clearance hurts you a lot; otherwise it's pretty darn easy to find programming positions.

Personally, I graduated with a job offer from the company I interned with last summer. My salary is over $60,000/yr fresh out of school. Part of this is because I live in an area with fairly high inflation, but in general programmers make $50,000 and up. I'd say typical mid-level programmers make between $60- and $80,000 per year. Not too shabby, right?


Some possible reasons for what your friend said:

-If you are just getting your feet wet in game design, does this mean you are teaching yourself? If you don't have a computer-related degree, I can definitely see landing a programming position being a fairly difficult task... ESPECIALLY in the gaming industry where you'll be competing with plenty of hardcore engineers and computer scientists.

-The money may not be worth it to him if it's not what he enjoys. Programming is often hard work--ESPECIALLY in the game development industry. If you're looking to work in the gaming industry expect to put in a TON of extra hours that you may or may not get paid for...

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Original post by Sourcej0hn1 I am an artistically inclined person, but I have always had a dream of being a programmer or an engineer.

Well, that sounds kind of familiar! In high school I always scored higher on my SATs and aptitude tests in English than in Mathematics, etc. I've always been better at and more interested in arts than sciences. Yet I got a bachelors of science in computer science... hmm. I will say that being more of an artsy person than a math-y or science-y person, I feel like my potential as a computer scientist is different than that of math or science-minded person. I'm better at working with UI and design, including program architecture. I'm fantastic at logic and problem-solving, but I'm not good with algorithms or physics. While there's still contributions I could make to a game development team, I think the math-y people are more sought after. But that could be just my perception; I haven't gone for a position in the gaming industry yet because I'll have to move. :p

Whatever you decide, I wish you luck.

Thanks everyone for your help, in response to mithry, I do study by myself, but not exclusively. I take classes at my local CC, and I intern with a small game studio. I just needed some advice from people without a chip on his shoulder (my engineers look down their noses at me because of my lack of experience) I work part time, intern, and go to school, so I just want to make sure that this is the right road for me NOW, not 2 years from now. But I love games so much, they have really shaped who I am, artistically and what I like as entertainment and I really want to extend that love to future generations. Everyone here is really helpful and knowledgeable, this is a great site, thanks again guys (and gals?)
-J

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Original post by Sourcej0hn1 What career advice can you guys offer?

"View Forum FAQ" in the forum this post has been moved to. It's allll about career advice!
Scroll up and look for the small blue text "View Forum FAQ."

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Original post by Sourcej0hn1 ... he told me that finding software engineer jobs is really a thankless quest, and in fact, the money one would make is not really worth it. -J

It's a thankless job because the public only gives a damn on what the end product looks like on the outside and not the inside.

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Original post by Sourcej0hn1 I have an intense love for games

Is that a love for playing games, a love for designing games, a love for coding games? It is an important detail.

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and I have all these great Ideas that I want to implement.

What job are you looking for?

Programmers love to PROGRAM. We love to write software. Programmers spend their free time looking at algorithms and source code, breaking down other people's code to learn from it, talking about programming, and writing programs. We may prefer to write game software over business software, but the love is of programming, not for games. I love to program, and I have taken several jobs outside of video games; I've worked on and enjoyed meeting presentation software and rendering for broadcast TV, and even quite a bit of business database development. I love working on games, but since I love programming, the other programming jobs are also fairly satisfying.

As a programmer, your own ideas will need to wait, and will probably wither and die before ever getting made.

Designers love to DESIGN games. The good ones will have already built card games, hand-crafted their own board games, and likely have tons of little die-cut characters to help them try out their designs. They also play a lot of games from hundreds of genres. Every good designer I know, even the entry level designers, knows their way around several different game systems including D20-based games and multiple CCGs and TCGs. The better designers also have a good understanding of game theory and human psychology.

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and in fact, the money one would make is not really worth it.

Why do you want the job? Are you looking to maximize your money in software engineering? If so, give up on game development and go for database development and administration. Or maybe dream about being a doctor or lawyer.

None of the careers are realistic unless they are your passion.

Very few people that I know pick their job based on the money. Their dream job is doing what they would do anyway, and they happen to get paid for it.

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What career advice can you guys offer? I have been researching pay and scale, but would really like some input from people who actually do this for a living.

It doesn't sound like "game programmer" is your passion. If it were your passion you would be asking questions like "How do I make a tetris clone?" or "how do I stream in terrain data?" You would not be researching pay scales in the career.

I'm going to agree with your friend. Look at what you do in your spare time, besides playing video games. Follow those career paths.

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Original post by Sourcej0hn1 Hey guys, I recently started getting my feet wet in game design, I'm taking classes in Java and c+. I have an intense love for games and I have all these great Ideas that I want to implement. However, my friend is an artistic lead at EA, and he told me that finding software engineer jobs is really a thankless quest, and in fact, the money one would make is not really worth it. I am an artistically inclined person, but I have always had a dream of being a programmer or an engineer. What career advice can you guys offer? I have been researching pay and scale, but would really like some input from people who actually do this for a living. Thanks ahead of time! -J

Yes, you are correct. Software Engineering is not a job for life time. I currently read an article talking about "age discrimination" in this industry. This industry don't like old guys. Well, in fact you will earn less after you pass age 40 as a programmer or developer. If you don't want to lose your job after 40, you need to be either very good at coding or get to manager level. Well, If you can get a less challenging job, why not?

On the other hand, programming could be just a fun thing to do for some people. If you are that type of person, then I think programmer is just the right title for you. Or you can always keep programming as a hobbit.

One caveat about those salary surveys: they're averages. Really good developers can make just as much in games as anywhere else, provided they are truly passionate and truly skilled. You also have to know how to negotiate for salary when you take a job; don't just walk in and pick up whatever offer is on the table. Show them what you can do, and what you could make elsewhere - and any company with good business sense will do what they can to help keep you around. This works best if you go in at a market-fair rate first and make yourself indispensable to the team, then push for pay raises.

Just be warned that if you aren't goddamn fantastic at your job, that has a high probability of backfiring.


In any case, as has been said, if you aren't really truly into programming for its own sake, don't do it as a career. There are far better ways to make lots of money for comparatively little stress. You also probably won't get to implement your own ideas, at least not on company time, which means you'd darn well better enjoy the job on its own merits and not just be in it to do whatever it is you want to do for yourself.

Of course there's always the indie/self-publishing route, which is getting downright practical these days what with Steam and other digital distribution channels. But you'd better love programming and cheap ramen noodles, or you'll find the indie road excruciatingly hard.