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nudity in games, and making out with boys

Started by makeshiftwings Aug 24, 2001 at 11:41 PM 29 replies 12.4k views
Original Post
makeshiftwings
makeshiftwings
i''ve been thinking about this topic mostly because of an ongoing argument on the Morrowind boards. For those who aren''t aware, Morrowind''s an RPG by Bethesda, the sequel to Arena and Daggerfall. Now Daggerfall gave you the interesting ability to take the clothes off your character in the item screen, leading to lots of fun staring at pixelated dark elf breasts. Also there were various naked women standing around in towns for no apparent reason. In Morrowind, they decided there would be no nudity. Many people are outraegd, claiming that Morrowind is now aiming to please the kiddies, and not the "mature" audience that daggerfall was allegedly aiming for with its gratuitous elf porn. Now, in my opinion, I see their decision of no nudity as being MORE mature. I admit, back when i was 14, nudity seemed very adult at the time, probably because it was always behind labels that said "Adults only". But i feel that games that are filled with nudity or almost-nudity *cough* *cough* *Everquest* *cough* are really just pandering to the hormonal teenagers. The romances in the Black Isle games (Baldur''s Gate 2, Planescape...) seemed much more mature to me, and were actually enjoyable, as opposed to the random scantily clad girls in most games, which mostly make me feel like everyone was right when they said video games are for kids. Also, in my life, I generally try to uphold such Chaotic Good beliefs as feminism and gay rights; but games sometimes seem to be developed by a horde of homophobic chauvinists. Then again, I suppose most of the suburban teenage male population is a horde of homophobic chauvinists, and developers are just catering to their audience. I for one, know a lot of gamers that would have a fatal heart attack if they found out their battle-hardened space marine was going around kissing boys, though I myself would be thrilled to see something like that in a game. Back on the Morrowind boards, with the nudity issue, there was also the general consensus that it was only really important that attractive naked women be in the game, as "no one wants to see naked guys". Also in games that have had nudity, the female form is generally pretty anatomically correct (well except for the fact that they''re always shaped like barbie dolls), while the male form generally has a suspicious blurry looking splotch between his legs. Now, I''m not saying we should all release games with lots of naked guys running around, I''m just trying to make a point that nudity in games isn''t actually there for "realism" or "artistic reasons" as some people want to believe, it''s really just some naked chicks to keep the teenage boys interested. So, ideas? Can nudity and sex be included tastefully, perhaps even artistically, into a game? Should we, as designers, even try, or should we not bother including it at all? Or maybe just put some porn in to help the game sell (not an option for me persnoally) ? Would gamers in general even play Killfest 6000 if the main character was acting suspiciously gay during the opening sequence? By the way, I''ve noticed that some games do in fact have lesbians, as i guess they''re more accepted by the gaming audience than gay boys. Still, most of the portrayal of such is still very porn oriented, except for the great lesbian couple in The Longest Journey, which is one of the only games that I felt actually had viable female characters in it. Well, could this post be any longer?
Drizzt DoUrden
Drizzt DoUrden
I think if its being used in an atrisitc or mature way it would be fine. I wouldnt want to be playing Zelda, and walk into someones house and see a bed bouncing up and down. That wouldnt seem very good. But if in Baldurs Gate i walked into an Inn, and the room had exposed person lying on a couch and an artist was painting a picture, I would see nothing wrong. I would think, if there were to be nudity, it should have a good purpose. Or at least, be very well generated . example being lara croft.I think that entire game idea wasnt all that great, but everyone still plays it... hmm, i wonder why? Its all depending on how you use it.
Bad example here:

Zelda:Where is the unkown one?
Elder: At the top of the mountain, hes always in his house.
(zelda goes up a mountain, 3 hours of ameplay)
(bed is shaking, and elders not there)
Elders Wife: Oh dear, I am so sorry, I didnt know there was going to be company.
Zelda: Is that your husband
Elders Wife: No i am cheating on him.

I find no point to something like that, but as I said with the artist thing, its ok.

"I''ve sparred with creatures from the nine hells themselves... I barely plan on breaking a sweat here, today."~Drizzt Do''Urden

Edited by - Drizzt DoUrden on August 25, 2001 1:02:33 AM
------------------------------Put THAT in your smoke and pipe it
sunandshadow
sunandshadow
This is one of those discussion topics that pops up like a dandelion every few months. For the record, I''ll restate my opinions:
-porn and/or sexual realism in games can be a good thing, but it has to be gender-balanced.
-whenever I make up a game design it ends up having gay/bi/trans/whatever characters in it, probably because I''m bi.
I want to help design a "sandpark" MMO. Optional interactive story with quests and deeply characterized NPCs, plus sandbox elements like player-craftable housing and lots of other crafting. If you are starting a design of this type, please PM me. I also love pet-breeding games.
Hase
Hase
Here´s my thoughts:

Preferences:

If you play games (read a book, watch a film) you need a character to relate to, a character to identify with. Now if you look at the gamers (young heterosexual males) its pretty clear that a game has to appeal to this group (otherwise it don´t sell). This you can either do by making the hero a big badass who gets all the babes (=is one hell of a strong/mean/all-powerful mutha and could if he wanted), or to make the hero a babe (heroine in that case) cause young heterosexual males like to look at boobs and asses.
Now you might call me shallow, but for 90% of the market that´s how it is. I, being within the target audience can confirm that. I like hero-type characters (although i prefer them a bit more sophisticated, at least i´d like to believe that) and i like to look at boobs and ass.
Shallow? Sounds like it. But i guess thats how it is.

THis does not mean that I want every game to be like this, quite the opposite. I´d love to see a gay Duke Nukem or a lesbian Lara. And I like stories with depth, like the mentioned BG2 (although it didn´t strike me as *that* good).
(And somehow i never got that far in "The longest Journey", the stupid underwater puzzle scared me off...)


Nudity:

Yes please. I have no problem with nudity in games, as long as its not purely just for the sake of having a nude around. So far i havent encountered any nudity which i have found totally inappropriate. Please note the "totally", the scantily clad amazons in the average rpg are bothersome though, especially when they´re going into battle with a g-string and a stainless steel bra.
I guess you could put it like that: sacrifice realism for gameplay, but not for nudity.
If it fits the game, its ok. If its in the game just for the sake of itself and still fits, its ok (im thinkin Duke Nukem again). If a game HAS to have nudity, just for the sake of pleasing the audience, why not make it more direct (talking rpgs again now)? If Daggerfall´s audience wants elf porn, just include elf porn paintings in the game. THen every player can go to the shop and buy some elf (dwarf/orc/whatever) porn he wants. With that the subject of naked elves(dwarves/whatever) is out of the way and you can focus on the game itself again ,because the ability to take all clothes of might be fun if you intend to go flashing, but will probably have no relevance on the story... if it does, by all means. Be naked. I could imagine a player character getting severely drunk/robbed/whatever and has to find his way home without his clothes on (what? you have NEVER woken up with no clothes on and no memory of how you lost them??). The characters braveness would then influence the places he/she could go to...

But then again, not much games overuse nudity anyways, as its just too dangerous ground to tread. In Europe it doesnt seem to be a problem, but you´re going to run into trouble in the US if you have just the proverbial tit sticking out.


Sex:

Yes please. This is even more dangerous ground than nudity, thats why i think few games risk it. It is slowly getting more (BG2 again, for instance, also Fallout 1+2), but i think that in general the gaming markets (even in Europe) are not ready for anything even remotely graphic.



Sunandshadow:
from my personal point of view i agree, but as a gamedesigner i have to disagree. Balance yes, but in relation to the customers. Which are mostly male. And you just cant afford to scare off thoes homophobic male teens.... But you don´t want to scare off the few girls who might have stumbled upon your game either, that´s why you´re probably going to have to go the safe way and show a few hot chicks, with at least some clothes on, and maybe some hot guys, but never with less than Conan wore, and never more erotic than Conan on a sunny day (so those homophobes can always think that it´s just a barbarian thing that has nothing to do with sex).


Drizzt:
IMO it doesnt always have to be art (not sure if this was your point). Nudity just for itself is ok sometimes, "mature" does not mean that there is no nudity just for the fun of it. In a good rpg i expect Barmaids to wear less (as they usually do in real life), i expect strippers and go-go girls at the appropriate places. But if you look at the Fallout series (which had more or less all of the above and more, although not so graphic) it was done nicely, without ever seeming "immature".
KaMiKaZ
KaMiKaZ
staring at actual porno seems stupid enough, but having it in a game?? i mean come on, how pathetic is that!??! "hehehe, oh yeah, my elf is making out with your halfling... hehehe" get a life people!
~~KaMiKaZ~~

EDIT: dam n, chose the wrong smiley

Edited by - KaMiKaZ on August 31, 2001 9:30:02 AM
+<--->+With your feet in the air and your head on the groundTry this trick and spin it, yeahYour head will collapseBut there's nothing in it And you'll ask yourselfWhere is my mind+<--->+
Drizzt DoUrden
Drizzt DoUrden
Lol. Ok. Remember Duke Nukem:Time to kill? It had strippers and everything. What kind of audience did it attract?

Middle school/high school students

Tomb Raider:

Be serios, nobody plays the game because the story line was good. LOOK AT THE MOVIE. Nobody would have watched to movie if there wasnt a sexual scene.


I personally think both of those games sucked. But theres not many people who would agree with me.

I think there should be a reason behind the nudity/sex because I really don''t want to see 2 animated people having sex on the floor when I walk into thier house to steal all of thier money. I think if its a love story, a sex scene would be good, because no other games with a love story have had a scene like that.(except maybe xeno gears, but I dont remember).

So, if it has a reason AND/OR makes the game seem more realistic, then fine.

"I''''ve sparred with creatures from the nine hells themselves... I barely plan on breaking a sweat here, today."~Drizzt Do''''Urden
------------------------------Put THAT in your smoke and pipe it
Hase
Hase
I disagree (on some accounts). Why do you always have to justify anything remotely sexual, either by calling it a love story or by calling it art?

all in all, to sum it up:

"So, if it has a reason AND/OR makes the game seem more realistic, then fine. "

i´d stress the OR, because (just as an example) in an rpg whose main goal is presenting a realistic and believable world, porn would not have a reason as such, but definitely make the world more credible... if you take the "Shadowrun" environment for example, dont you think that people who have no moral objections to replacing half their bodies with machine parts and shooting other people for money would have any second thoughts about having porn in their house? So, if i ever see a Shadowrun rpg, I want to have the option of buying some class A human/elf/orc/troll nudie mag, not because I want to, or would, but because the option should be there.

BTW: can anyone remember that cool action/adventure from waaay back... Dreamweb. Top-down view, adventure mostly... extremely gloomy setting, and you play some sort of poor sod who has to kill members of some conspiracy or other to survive... It had a scene (remember this is all 320x200, in a 200x150 game window, the rest was inventory and shit) where you had to shoot this mafia boss who was apparently screwing his girl/wife at the time... It was a pretty harsh scene, but I did not feel that either the sex or the violence was inappropriate, because it greatly added to the atmosphere.

Xai
Xai
It''s all about expression ...

and expression doesn''t mean one thing being done ... it means a million different answers ... each one expressing it''s little view of the world ... appealing to some particular audience ... justifying it''s own existence by having at least one human being glad that it exists ...

there are many man mutually exclusive expressions ... even though i love Douglas Adams and Monty Python (silly ironic and intelligent human) on the one hand ... Robert Heinlein and Orson Scott Card (poinient thoughts on human life and interesting visions) ... I know that I don''t want a game to be mostly serious and realistic and pollitically important ... and then to have them try to mix in silly british humor and inappropriate porno (is that possible???) ... it would ruin the expression they did have ... expressions need a certain level of purity to be enjoyed ... think about how good "Interview with a Vampire" would be if the had Barney (big purple doll) come up just so they could kill him pointlessly and please many American viewers. - not very ...

So I say ... give me lots of pointless sex for it''s own sake ... because sex is NEVER pointless ... it''s just about the single most domminant thing in all of human (and animal) society ...

And also give teanage males lotsa of tits and ass ... and macho heros .... and big explossions ...

But don''t let that stop Stars2 from coming out and exercising my brain ... and a game for gay audiences ... and girls ... and old people ... and kids ... and various religious and ethnic groups .. and various countries and cultures ... and smart people ... and morons ... and innocent optimists ... and cynical pessimists ...

and MOST importantly ... let there be at least SOME well made ... well balanced ... realistic games ... not all ... but some ... a game with a gay mage and a few lesbians .... but they don''t dominate the story with sex .. it just is ... and they go on about there exciting lives ... saving the world ... and let there be games with well adjusted people ... and non-stereotyped minorities ... and woman who are NOT supermodels ...

because we get our cultural identity from our media ... and if you look at games and TV and movies lately ... you''ll see that in America at least .. we''ve lost our base in reality ... british shows still have normal humans .. with imperfections .. overweight ... bad teeth ... etc etc .. but they tell a HUMAN story ... and we feel them just as deeply as these scantily glad waifs in America which make our dicks hard to look at even when the dialog is about a job promotion or something else unrelated to sex ... and all we can do is drool and think ... "yeah yeah ... bend over again ... " .. nothing wrong with sex ... i love porn ... but i like to watch a great movie like "Little Big Man" and not be destracted tooo much by the female actresses ...

So i say ... make games ... lots of them ... and make them well ... whatever type of game you want ... just do it better than the last guy ... or at least as good as the last guy ... andif you think a nice ass would make you enjoy the game better ... add it ... if you wanna see a guy sucking dick ... add it ... if you want to please parents and 4 year olds ... add cartoons and bright colors ... just make SOMEONE happy ... and don''t worry about who you don''t make happy ... that''s not your job ...
Wavinator
Wavinator
quote:
Original post by makeshiftwings
The romances in the Black Isle games (Baldur's Gate 2, Planescape...) seemed much more mature to me, and were actually enjoyable, as opposed to the random scantily clad girls in most games, which mostly make me feel like everyone was right when they said video games are for kids.


Of course, the humorous sexual situations in Fallout 2 kind of reversed any notion of "more mature." (your character could help make a porn movie for 5 bottlecaps, among other things)

quote:

Also, in my life, I generally try to uphold such Chaotic Good beliefs as feminism and gay rights; but games sometimes seem to be developed by a horde of homophobic chauvinists. Then again, I suppose most of the suburban teenage male population is a horde of homophobic chauvinists, and developers are just catering to their audience.



Indeed, this is probably very close to the mark.

quote:

I for one, know a lot of gamers that would have a fatal heart attack if they found out their battle-hardened space marine was going around kissing boys, though I myself would be thrilled to see something like that in a game.



Yeah, as you point out the traditional bias is tolerance toward lesbian relationships, if anything (which seems to be a common adolescent male fantasy-- heh, nevermind that in reality it would have nothing to do with the fantasizer, anyway).

quote:

Now, I'm not saying we should all release games with lots of naked guys running around, I'm just trying to make a point that nudity in games isn't actually there for "realism" or "artistic reasons" as some people want to believe, it's really just some naked chicks to keep the teenage boys interested.


LOL!!!!! Dead on bullseye! Dead on!

quote:

So, ideas? Can nudity and sex be included tastefully, perhaps even artistically, into a game?



Probably not for awhile. Games have a lot of growing up to do, if at all. As Europeans are keen on observing of American media, we're more comfortable watching a bullet shatter a human eye socket in high textured detail than we are in seeing a naked body.

Most games are not about people. They're typically about things (like new plate mail armor; another tank; the red keycard, etc.) Contrasted to stories or movies, this is probably another reason why sex is so objectified. Even though there are tons of games with characters, it's very difficult to fit human nuance into them. And sexuality is all about nuance.

quote:

Or maybe just put some porn in to help the game sell (not an option for me persnoally) ?



Heh, "the only business the internet making money..." Poly porn is probably the wave of the future...

quote:

Would gamers in general even play Killfest 6000 if the main character was acting suspiciously gay during the opening sequence?



Probably not, especially now that a new generation has popularized the use of the word 'gay' as an epithet to disparage all manner of things. For more diversity, you need to go higher on the "cultural IQ" scale. So that's neither WWF or Quake XLIV. Adventure games might be your best shot here, out of all the genres.



--------------------
Just waiting for the mothership...

Edited by - Wavinator on September 2, 2001 10:25:57 PM
--------------------Just waiting for the mothership...
Goku705
Goku705
It''s interesting that someone mentioned Dreamweb. I vaguely remember it from my Amiga days. It was certainly quite graphic but the graphicness made sense given the story.

Anyway, I agree that sex/nudity shouldn''t be included/excluded in a game just for the sake of pleasing a target audience. But I also don''t think that such things should be used in a game only if it serves a purpose. Because then, the entire situation seems contrived. This raises the question of where to draw the line. Making every single character in a game entirely abstinent for no reason is obviously just as unrealistic as having the game give the entire story of why any given character who is having sex in the game.

However, in the case of homosexuality, race and gender: it should serve a purpose (even if it is minor) or at least somewhat impact their dialogue. Why? Because if a character being gay served no purpose, then what''s the point of telling us? But that goes for almost any classification. What difference does it make if a character''s male, female, elf or dwarf if their personalities don''t at least somewhat reflect this. But again, there must be a line. The last thing we need is a gay Duke Nukem whose vocal tracks in the game all feature the stereotypically pseudo-feminine voice and heavy lisp.

But despite any of that, it''s entirely impossible to appease everyone. Sure, by using gratuitous female nudity, you''ll get more teenage males playing but you might lose some female players. Giving game characters cultural/gender diversity will attract those who are annoyed with primarily white male characters but may detract those possessing corresponding prejudices. This has the same as above with concern to prejudices.

But alas, it''s true that teenage males are the primary market for video games so if you want to sell, T&A, gruff heroes and lots of blood are the way to go.

In response to that, all I can say is "Thank God my games are free and will never need to be marketed."


-Goku
SANE Productions Homepage
Tom
Tom
Strain is my coup de grâce of conventional RPG''s, merging both RPG and adventure elements to create a game worthy of explorers like myself. (Kylotan and Silvermyst might recall my little spiel on this topic.) I''d never even considered nudity as a selling point in this game because, frankly, it has no place. The story is about a decimated world and an alien disease that kills its host.

A lot of you people seem to have some real problems with stereotyping the gaming community. You should probably put the phrase "most gamers" in all your sentences, because it seems to me that 90 percent of the people who visit these forums do not qualify as your so-called "typical" gamers. This is a point that has bothered me for years.

I played all the way through Tomb Raider II because I wanted to score a perfect game. Certainly, the female star was attractive (for a mesh) and drew me into the game, but so would a bad-ass male star with a trenchcoat. Players are attracted to whatever they think is appealing. Guns are appealing. Naked women are appealing. To me, alien worlds are appealing.

You''re also forgetting something very very very important: professional developers are trying to make money. If nudity sells, you use it. If gratuitous violence sells, you use it. Everyone here is looking for something beyond what we''re used to seeing on the shelves at Babbages. You will not find it there. Make it your damn self, for God''s sake.

If you want to know the real answer, you have to decide if you''re making games for money, or because you want to innovate. Figure it out, and then make a game that beats everything else in shear playability. Just let the arguments rest.
GDNet+. It's only $5 a month. You know you want it.
Cranium-Ticker
Cranium-Ticker
Anyone played Xentar knights (Dragon Knight in japan)? That was an RPG where you run around gathering items, fighting monsters and saving anime chicks from danger. It was kind of funny that when you managed to rescue a damsel in distress, she would strip and you would see a corny anime sex sequence. I suppose they wanted to cater to oversexed men who liked to play RPG's, and spank their willies every time they finished a quest. I guess it would beat the unfulfilled "I saved the kingdom" fare in standard RPG's... But who's to say? Personally I thought it was kind of stupid, but I'm sure there are worse things than nudity in video games and life these days.... Of course being the straight man that I am, I wouldn't want to buy a game that had John Rambone doing the vertical rumba while I kill evil space men either. Which is why game companies use good common sense in that respect anyway






Edited by - Cranium-Ticker on September 4, 2001 3:16:23 AM
mnem0nic
mnem0nic
On including nudity:
Nudity is simply giving the player the capability to remove all their clothes. Most likely it would not be vital to a game. Do you want to give your players the option of removing all of their clothes? Seems like a pretty mild topic really. If you want to make it more controversial, include a random seed in your game that generates a small percentage of character portraits whose men have penises the size of a loaf of French bread. These characters should have larger, funny-shaped pants, and could never run as fast as the other players. If you did this, then there would be a need to see yourself nude to explain your characters unusual pants and movement speed. As well as the unusual charisma the character has around the NPC ladies.

On including Sexual acts:
I think it depends on how it looks on the screen. Too much realism would invite a lot of objections... enough objections that lack of sales from the objectors would probably far outweigh the added sales from the deprived. I bet that if you plotted a graph of sexual realism vs. public objections it would be a 45 degree line from the origin.

On the other hand, if it looks un-realistic, it stops being sexual eye candy and just becomes humor. I read a line in a recent magazine article about games of the horror genre. The author mentioned something to the effect that you should not use blood to try to make your game scarry because blood isn''t scarry. The bloodier and gorier a scene is, the more likely it is to become funny to the player. In this same regards, I think un-realistic sex added to a game should only be considered for its humor value. The problem is trying to convince the "stick-up-butt" members of society to see it that way. (maybe these groups only protest this type of thing because they are afraid to face the music and explain sex to their kids. [ouch...ok that was too far]) =P
mnem0nicDallas, TX
atcdevil
atcdevil
quote:
Original post by Anonymous Poster
I reckon sex showed be only been done in the game once ur married. This will show people that it is better to have morals. Also if u ask someone to sleep with u then ur character showed b knocked out if u have a wife, girlfriend, and arnt married. Sex showed be used in the game to teach people morals. Ive played games were there was sex and nudity involved but it only happened when ur married and it shows a more moralistic approach. People who can play a game which contains nudity and it dosnt bother them shows true maturity since they can deal with it. Nudity and sex showed be put into the game but showed in morals in how to approach it ie get married and sex after marriage.



Whose morals?? Yours?


[edited by - atcdevil on May 5, 2004 10:44:56 AM]
ZenDarva
ZenDarva
Am i the only person amused that it seems that the more open minded the position espoused in the post, the better written it seems to be?

::cough cough::
__Daedalus__
__Daedalus__
It should be integral to the plot. You shouldn''t have nudity for nuditys sake. But if you wanted to make a game where one of the main character get killed, say, taking a shower - you wouldn''t have them in the shower with their clothes on would you!
irbrian
irbrian
I do not believe these situations should enter games or film, for the simple but very important reason that I believe intimacy is a very private act reserved for a man and a woman within the bonds of marriage. We all know it happens, and that it should happen under those conditions, but I do not believe it is something that should be discussed in these kinds of public settings. Furthermore, I find crass and informal discussions of the topic to be a gross violation of the sacred nature of it.

Sadly, I would be surprised to learn that more than a few of you share this belief.

****************************************

Brian Lacy
ForeverDream Studios

Comments? Questions? Curious?


"I create. Therefore I am."
---------------------------Brian Lacy"I create. Therefore I am."
Indeterminatus
Indeterminatus
quote:

Original post by ZenDarva:
Am i the only person amused that it seems that the more open minded the position espoused in the post, the better written it seems to be?

::cough cough::



Nudity bad. Nudity very bad. Nuttin' that bad as nudity.

Seriously now ... Now that this seems to be a very interesting topic for some of you, I just can't help to add my 2 cents .
Although I haven't played Tomb Raider (which came up a few times), I don't see any disadvantages in creating a sexy character. If that's a reason for the game being played and bought, there's nothing bad about it, or is it?
I have the impression that's the key for successful games. Either have an excellent plot, or stuff your game with some gore or porn .
If I was the one that couldn't think of a good story, I'd choose the other way...and I believe there are players who do not care about the depth of a game, as long as it's brutal or they can stare at some "nude pixels" on the screen ...

edit: forgot to close the quote tag...

Indeterminatus

--si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses--

[edited by - Indeterminatus on May 5, 2004 11:24:47 AM]
Indeterminatus--si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses--
BitMaster
BitMaster
quote:
Original post by irbrian
Sadly, I would be surprised to learn that more than a few of you share this belief.


Considering that there are a lot of Europeans here it would indeed be very surprising if you were surprised.

[edited by - BitMaster on May 5, 2004 11:48:39 AM]
OOCCO
OOCCO
quote:
Original post by irbrian
I do not believe these situations should enter games or film, for the simple but very important reason that I believe intimacy is a very private act reserved for a man and a woman within the bonds of marriage. We all know it happens, and that it should happen under those conditions, but I do not believe it is something that should be discussed in these kinds of public settings. Furthermore, I find crass and informal discussions of the topic to be a gross violation of the sacred nature of it.

Sadly, I would be surprised to learn that more than a few of you share this belief.

****************************************

Brian Lacy
ForeverDream Studios

Comments? Questions? Curious?


"I create. Therefore I am."
Well I think your beliefs are draconian and provincial but fundamental to a hopeless romanticist.

"The Holocaust was an obscene period in our nation's history. I mean in this century's history. But we all lived in this century. I didn't live in this century."...Governor George W. Bush, 9/15/95

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