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Programming Job Postings - They Suck!

Started by djz Sep 9, 2011 at 12:42 AM 15 replies 3.3k views

Original Post

Sep 9, 2011 at 12:42 AM

[font="Arial"]I've been looking for a change from my current position for a while... most jobs I see posted are uninformative, poorly-written catch-all postings that provide very little information to distinguish themselves. I'm also guessing that these jobs get hundreds of applicants - despite the fact that their stated "requirements" are often some ridiculous mishmash that makes it unclear if they're looking for a DBA, programmer, web designer, etc.[/font]
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[font="Arial"]The following are taken from actual job postings: [/font]
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[font="Arial"]"These roles would require additional skills and knowledge unique to the discipline"[/font]
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[font="Arial"]"Employment of strong interpersonal and communication skills for customer service and process integration "[/font]
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[font="Arial"]"Complete design, development, implementation and support of system interfaces that ensure the integrity of both business data and the system environment for the environment"[/font]
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[font="Arial"]"We're growing fast, developing cutting-edge technology and research techniques that bring clients the insight they need to get inspired, be innovative and make bankable decisions."[/font]
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[font="Arial"]To me these ads just stink. Spell out what you do in practical terms so I know I'm not applying to work with a bunch of managarese-speaking morons. [/font][font="Arial"]I've also seen some HORRIBLE jobs. Jobs requiring development in Visual Basic/C#/C++/MYSQL asking for 5+ experience, for $12-$15/hr. Riiiiiigggght.[/font]
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[font="Arial"]Can we please stop rewarding this crap with our resumes & cover letters?[/font]
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[font="Arial"]To HR departments: Any good candidate is going to want to know a little bit about you before sending them their resume, cover letter and personal information. I'm going to assume you're probably just some e-commerce/spam/useless product company anyway who is too embarrassed to explicitly explain what you do. [/font]
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[font="Arial"]When you ask for a bunch of pie-in-the-sky requirements, you're just going to get a bunch of candidates that successfully bullshit/fabricate/twist their work experience to get past your keyword screener anyway, and (based on my recent experiences) the staff you have interviewing me doesn't have a clue what questions to ask to properly validate me as a potential employee. STOP THIS INSANITY NOW![/font]
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[font="Arial"]/rant [/font]
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[font="Arial"]edit: My favourite are the "exciting startup" companies looking for "brilliant coders" that demand you prove to them how "brilliant" you are before they'll even tell you what they're doing. And when you find out it's obviously doomed for failure.[/font]

tstrimp

Sep 9, 2011 at 2:03 AM

No, it's a good thing. If their job ad sucks then it was likely written by an HR drone, which means the company employs HR drones, which indicates it's not a company I'd like to work for. Sounds like a good way to pick out the crappy jobs to me!

Khaiy

Sep 9, 2011 at 5:17 AM

A lot of bigger companies are not very well run at the middle and lower levels, and those are the highest ones you can expect to be looking at when considering job posts like that. At the worst end, a manager may have only a passing understanding of what the position they're looking to fill is even for, never mind being able to communicate that to an HR person who struggles with using Microsoft Word. If the ad looks like it was written by a gang of motivational posters, then actual skill at the job is secondary to fitting in with BS corporate culture.

But even if you're not looking at the worst, there is plenty of space for the kinds of ads you're describing. There's no reason for a company not to place exorbitant demands for too little pay, and as you noticed they sometimes don't offer any description of the job being offered (they may not even be offering a job, in fact). The labor market is so slack that a company can count on a large number of applicants no matter what, and they may well luck out and get someone as good as they want desperate enough to take the crappy pay. If not, they can still pick from a large number of applicants based on what they can actually do. Besides, many firms can't or won't afford a truly good employee at the moment anyhow.

In general, they aren't looking for brilliant workers, or even good ones. They're looking for good enough, or even not quite good enough. And honestly, it'll work. While the labor market is bad, a huge number of people don't have the option of not giving a company their resume or comparison shopping employers. In better times, good programmers won't even consider garbage like this, and the companies will scoop up lots of crap programmers (there will always be plenty) instead.

Companies that hire this way get exactly what this sort of ad will promote. But there will always be companies that keep doing it-- look at how popular personality testing has become for corporations.

Wan

Sep 9, 2011 at 7:51 AM

I actually had fairly good experience using recruiters/headhunters.

I have to be honest and say that at least ninety percent of them are completely useless and have no idea what they are doing. But if you come in contact with one that understand your specific qualities and the market in general, and is prepared to invest some real time and effort, it can definitely be a good route to go. It can certainly save you a lot of time, because they should be able to bypass most of the HR/PR crap and provide you with some actual insight.

Krohm

Sep 9, 2011 at 9:25 AM

[font="Arial"]To me these ads just stink. Spell out what you do in practical terms so I know I'm not applying to work with a bunch of managarese-speaking morons. [/font][font="Arial"]I've also seen some HORRIBLE jobs. Jobs requiring development in Visual Basic/C#/C++/MYSQL asking for 5+ experience, for $12-$15/hr. Riiiiiigggght.

That actually sounds reasonable... here's a good story I had the unfortunate chance to experience.[/font]

[font="Arial"]Start from a very broad single-line description of the work involved. Insert several buzzwords, after removing the bullshit it sounded like[/font]
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We are looking from top-class programmer in computational physics, the candidate must demonstrate extensive knowledge of nuclear-grade apparatus (particularly BLAH detectors) and workings, as well as documented working experience in high-profile companies for at least 5 years. We offer 1500 EUR/month and a 4-month contract.[/quote][/font][font="Arial"]The very high pay and extremely desiderable lifespan involved in the contract is surely an indicator of the high profile of this employer.
But the icying on the cake was surely their openness in publicly declaring their involvement in nuclear grade equipment.... on a medium that's typically used to recruit welders (at best) and low-tier workmanship, open to everyone, with no log at all.[/font]

BeanDog

Sep 9, 2011 at 5:44 PM

I've interviewed a lot of people who have responded to public job postings, but in reality I've hired about 90% of employees through personal networks of myself or other employees. I think a lot of smaller companies (at least the good ones) only use public job postings in case a particular gem shows up; the bread and butter is people who people know and trust already.

RivieraKid

Sep 9, 2011 at 5:49 PM

I actually had fairly good experience using recruiters/headhunters.

I have to be honest and say that at least ninety percent of them are completely useless and have no idea what they are doing. But if you come in contact with one that understand your specific qualities and the market in general, and is prepared to invest some real time and effort, it can definitely be a good route to go. It can certainly save you a lot of time, because they should be able to bypass most of the HR/PR crap and provide you with some actual insight.

I had this experience as well. The crap recruiters are easy to spot. Add the good ones to linked in, organize a drink with them and make friends. Some of the guys have some serious pull with employers, all it takes is a word in the right ear and you have an interview. My recruiter found me a job requiring F# 6 months after I mentioned the language, (that is to say those jobs are few and far between but he kept an eye out)

bruteostrich

Sep 9, 2011 at 6:32 PM

Often these crappy posts are for an internal hire. They are legally for whatever reason required to publicly post the position, so they make it hard to understand so that the internal person will be the best applicant.

JustChris

Sep 9, 2011 at 7:08 PM

Working for a startup is always a gamble. It's better to just work at a young company that's already went through the growing pains and is destined to be mentioned on TechCrunch

I actually hate the "mixed stew of technology requirements" postings more than the "corporate buzzword expectations". I sometimes scour Craigslist for job postings, and I look forward to seeing a "RE: (job post title)" down the list because it usually is someone calling out that job poster for ridiculous demands or expectations. I saw one job listing in jest saying that you require knowledge of all these languages, and design software suites and being able to code in binary as well.

Dealing with recruiters is hit or miss with me. Sometimes they know their stuff, go well and get you through to a programming test (a fair one) and right to an interview, and sometimes they say that the company didn't accept you but right out told me "They didn't want to say why". Is it legal for HR in the US to withhold any information regarding this?

In the whole light of things, crappy programmers may be hired in large amounts, but the job market right now still makes you feel like you have to be in the top 5th percentile to land one.

way2lazy2care

Sep 9, 2011 at 7:22 PM

being able to code in binary as well.

alnite

Sep 10, 2011 at 1:25 AM

Haha yeah. The joy of looking for a programming job. Copy paste programming jargons and make your job posting look 'cool'.

Starnick

Sep 10, 2011 at 1:49 AM

I saw a job posting earlier today that 2 of the 4 bullet items were:

Must be able to write computer code.
- Must have experience in programming.
  No mention of languages, technology, etc. Not even any "buzzwords".

tstrimp

Sep 10, 2011 at 3:35 AM

Haha yeah. The joy of looking for a programming job. Copy paste programming jargons and make your job posting look 'cool'.

If you think looking for a programming job is bad, try finding good programmers. Posting something on a public job board leads to a flood of emails, 95% of which are developers from India who are looking for a visa sponsor.

BeanDog

Sep 10, 2011 at 4:07 AM

If you think looking for a programming job is bad, try finding good programmers. Posting something on a public job board leads to a flood of emails, 95% of which are developers from India who are looking for a visa sponsor.

This, a thousand times this. And local job postings, like Craigslist and KSL (the popular local classifieds here), result in dozens of resumes from people who are out of work for a reason. I've very rarely had anyone from public postings even make it past my smoke test. My smoke tests vary based on the position, but for a Javascript programmer it is to sort a list of strings by length, and alphabetically for those with equal lengths. It's not rocket science, it's not even meant to be tricky, but I've turned away a lot of programmers who spun their wheels for 30 minutes with open Internet access working on such a problem.

(For contrast, the last programmer I actually hired wrote an Othello/Reversi implementation in Javascript, complete with greedy AI, in under 30 minutes. He came via a personal reference.)

Antheus

Sep 10, 2011 at 5:34 PM

This, a thousand times this.

Assuming someone is not broke, desperate and completely without options: Why should they work for you? What can you offer that someone else doesn't? You're a company - sell me.

Here is the paradox: companies want people with good judgement, competence, honesty, loyalty, dedication, communication skills, experienced in business and domain - well guess what - your job offer fails on all this counts, making me not consider you. So better make sure the paycheck is listed and has enough digits, preferably 5 times above industry average. As is the case with other jobs in "shitty" industries.

Imagine a chef trying to recruit help, but has nothing to offer but a half-broken desk and a gas burner. Something is wrong and people know it.

Why does everyone want to work at Google? Marketing. Companies aren't attracting talent because they aren't selling. They reek desperation, dishonesty and incompetence through every word on their postings.

If a job listing says: "C++/PHP/JS/SQL at expert level", something is wrong. The number of people qualified for such post is miniscule worldwide and they work at Google or on Wall Street.

Hence connections work. Both know what to expect, nobody is trying to scam the other or at least not by much.

-------

I remember a job post along these lines. It listed hourly wage as (number made up): EUR3.215423/hour. Why? They took minimum wage and divided by number of hours. It required PhD or PhD in progress with 5 technology stacks at expert level.

Oh, the position was filled same week. By manager's good friend and long time neighbor. It was for a government funded company. Whose profit per revenue was 18x their standardized salary (top companies reach 5x).

djz

Sep 10, 2011 at 7:41 PM

We are an e-learning company specializing in the aviation industry. We are looking for a senior c# programmer with the following qua:
*over 10 years of software development experience
*over 5 years of C#
*Understand UML and Data model very well
*Egnglish english
*Team pleayer
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Whatever company this is, they sound like they're about to implode.
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JustChris

Sep 12, 2011 at 6:19 PM

While we're on the topic, why do some companies request a cover letter when they post anonymously? How is one supposed to write a cover letter tailored to a company when you don't know what company it is or even what they do? They do expect you to provide samples and ask for expertise in certain technologies, though.

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