How to "care" about programming?

Not sure why you are dismissive of "[color="#1C2837"]And someone says "Games are software, silly."
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]They are. Frankly if you don't get any enjoyment or rush out of coding, it might be the wrong thing for you to do. Reality is, games are a lot of hard work and a big part of that hard work is programming.
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]From what I have read from your comment though, you haven't actually "done" anything yet. Abstract tutorials from books are all good and well for teaching concepts, but they aren't exactly satisfying. Why don't you actually "do" something? Take your example of "Pong in C++" that you Googled and run with it. I've written an incomplete but incredibly detailed tutorial on creating Pong in C++, run through it from beginning till... erm, well not the end... but you get the idea. Since it's incomplete you can use it as an exercise to finish the game off ( add sound, another player, etc... ). After that, take what you've learned and create another simple game.
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]If after that you still aren't enjoying the process or nothing is sticking, try Unity again. It might be the details you don't enjoy and Unity abstracts away a lot of that process. If at this point you still don't enjoy it, perhaps it's time to reassess your career options.
[color="#1C2837"]
[color="#1C2837"]Oh, and stick with it for a while... as I said, it's not an easy task and if you give up early you are doomed to failure.

[color="#1c2837"]From what I have read from your comment though, you haven't actually "done" anything yet. Abstract tutorials from books are all good and well for teaching concepts, but they aren't exactly satisfying. Why don't you actually "do" something? Take your example of "Pong in C++" that you Googled and run with it. I've written an incomplete but incredibly detailed tutorial on creating Pong in C++, run through it from beginning till... erm, well not the end... but you get the idea. Since it's incomplete you can use it as an exercise to finish the game off ( add sound, another player, etc... ). After that, take what you've learned and create another simple game.
[color="#1c2837"]

Alright, I'll give it a shot when I can.
And you are right, I actually haven't "done" anything yet, but everything I've read hasn't seemed to enough, for me, anyway.

I'm not asking for a book to spoon feed me, I just feel like I'm hitting an odd gap where I've done a lot of following and no leading.

I have yet to sit down and...."start".
...
I'm going though the lessons at a steady pace, but I just don't "see" a result. I'm in my freshman year of college, and I have time to adjust my major (currently Digtal Media and Arts), and while I enjoy math and the logic of programming, I'm not seeing an end result to making a game.
...
My question is simply this. While I know I shouldn't ask "What should I do?", because only I know that, I have the urge to ask "Where should I go?" Going to a library or a book store and seeing this same...stopping point. It's odd.

The trick is, I'm not interested in software development. At all. I'd want to apply this knowledge to games first, software second.

And someone says "Games are software, silly."

If someone has been in my shoes and knows of a way out, I'm listening. Until then, I'll push though, and maybe I'll see something I like.

You are right, games are software.

If you choose programming for your career you will be expected to work with code every workday for 7 or more hours daily. You will be expected to tinker. You will be expected to try many things and fail at them quickly as you experiment. And you will do this for a few decades.


Being passionate about games is VERY different from being passionate about making games.

It's like the difference in being passionate about auto races vs being passionate about being an auto mechanic. Or wanting to travel the world looking at the tallest buildings vs designing those buildings vs building those buildings.

Being passionate about the end result is one thing. Being passionate about the process is another thing entirely.




If this were a case of someone who enjoyed tinkering with software and programming but simply lost interest temporarily, that would be different.


You don't even seem to have the impetus to start, let alone a passionate drive.


It looks like this isn't something you are passionate about.

Are you passionate not just about playing games, but instead passionate for the process of making games? Are you passionate about tinkering with rule sets, such as the paper versions of D&D or M:tG or other systems where you physically manipulate everything and run the rules yourself?

Find some things you are passionate about, and follow them.

If you aren't passionate about programming, better to change course now than after spending the money on a degree and spending years in a field you hate.

[quote="Serapth"]Not sure why you are dismissive of "And someone says "Games are software, silly."[/quote]
Perhaps the OP implied "application software", as opposed "game software"?

Moving this to the Lounge.

[quote="Serapth"]Not sure why you are dismissive of "And someone says "Games are software, silly."

Perhaps the OP implied "application software", as opposed "game software"?
[/quote]

This is a valuable lesson most new developers need to learn at some point... application software and game software, when you look up their skirt, have basically the exact same bits...

Sorry for the pervo analogy.

Software is the code modern day magicians use to manifest the hidden world. It is the arcana mathematica. Songs to the computer gods, awakening them from their slumber, powered by quantum physics and pure mathematics. It's breadth and depth is only a reflection of your own. Like any piece of art it reflects more the artists than the subject. What do you want to create? and Why? Those are your questions.

Kinda overly poetic but you get the gist, learning anything can be boring, be it painting, playing an instrument, dancing, etc.. It's your drive, desire and determination which gets you through the "boring" parts and then you start to make real progress. Like anything it takes about 10 years to master but if it's your passion it can take as little as 1-2 years.

Good Luck!

-ddn

Then again, if you're the creative type and cannot get into the programming aspect at all and still want to make (relatively simple, but far from trivial) games, there are tools for achieving that objective also. Search for "game maker" and its ilk. Mind you, they impose their own methods of doing things which you might find limiting but some of those tools are pretty decent.

[quote name='Confirm4Crit' timestamp='1318866314' post='4873493']
I have yet to sit down and...."start".
...
I'm going though the lessons at a steady pace, but I just don't "see" a result. I'm in my freshman year of college, and I have time to adjust my major (currently Digtal Media and Arts), and while I enjoy math and the logic of programming, I'm not seeing an end result to making a game.
...
My question is simply this. While I know I shouldn't ask "What should I do?", because only I know that, I have the urge to ask "Where should I go?" Going to a library or a book store and seeing this same...stopping point. It's odd.

The trick is, I'm not interested in software development. At all. I'd want to apply this knowledge to games first, software second.

And someone says "Games are software, silly."

If someone has been in my shoes and knows of a way out, I'm listening. Until then, I'll push though, and maybe I'll see something I like.

(Edited Quote)

Being passionate about games is VERY different from being passionate about making games.

It's like the difference in being passionate about auto races vs being passionate about being an auto mechanic. Or wanting to travel the world looking at the tallest buildings vs designing those buildings vs building those buildings.

Being passionate about the end result is one thing. Being passionate about the process is another thing entirely.

It looks like this isn't something you are passionate about.

Are you passionate not just about playing games, but instead passionate for the process of making games? Are you passionate about tinkering with rule sets, such as the paper versions of D&D or M:tG or other systems where you physically manipulate everything and run the rules yourself?

Find some things you are passionate about, and follow them.

If you aren't passionate about programming, better to change course now than after spending the money on a degree and spending years in a field you hate.
[/quote]

I love to think of ideas. I am constantly designing ideas, writing out documents, coming up with legitimate ideas. I love to figure out why players do or don't like something, I love the art and science behind the games.

But that sentence makes me sound like the idea guy. I don't have an army of programmers, artists, and composers. I want to get involved in game design, and I love math. This seems like a great idea.
The thing is, I don't want to be the guy sitting and coding, I want to be the guy designing and coding.
I don't want to make software, I want to make games. Games just happen to be software.
I seem to get a 50/50 response when I say this.
"You gotta know programming to get a job in game design."
"No you don't, you just need to be a creative leader"
I don't know, if you magically gave me a development studio, I think I could lead it into a powerful and successful title.

I just don't think that's how the world works right now.

[quote name='frob' timestamp='1318867732' post='4873506']
[quote name='Confirm4Crit' timestamp='1318866314' post='4873493']
I have yet to sit down and...."start".
...
I'm going though the lessons at a steady pace, but I just don't "see" a result. I'm in my freshman year of college, and I have time to adjust my major (currently Digtal Media and Arts), and while I enjoy math and the logic of programming, I'm not seeing an end result to making a game.
...
My question is simply this. While I know I shouldn't ask "What should I do?", because only I know that, I have the urge to ask "Where should I go?" Going to a library or a book store and seeing this same...stopping point. It's odd.

The trick is, I'm not interested in software development. At all. I'd want to apply this knowledge to games first, software second.

And someone says "Games are software, silly."

If someone has been in my shoes and knows of a way out, I'm listening. Until then, I'll push though, and maybe I'll see something I like.

(Edited Quote)

Being passionate about games is VERY different from being passionate about making games.

It's like the difference in being passionate about auto races vs being passionate about being an auto mechanic. Or wanting to travel the world looking at the tallest buildings vs designing those buildings vs building those buildings.

Being passionate about the end result is one thing. Being passionate about the process is another thing entirely.

It looks like this isn't something you are passionate about.

Are you passionate not just about playing games, but instead passionate for the process of making games? Are you passionate about tinkering with rule sets, such as the paper versions of D&D or M:tG or other systems where you physically manipulate everything and run the rules yourself?

Find some things you are passionate about, and follow them.

If you aren't passionate about programming, better to change course now than after spending the money on a degree and spending years in a field you hate.
[/quote]

I love to think of ideas. I am constantly designing ideas, righting out documents, coming up with legitimate ideas. I love to figure out why players do or don't like something, I love the art and science behind the games.

But that sentence makes me sound like the idea guy. I don't have an army of programmers, artists, and composers. I want to get involved in game design, and I love math. This seems like a great idea.
The thing is, I don't want to be the guy sitting and coding, I want to be the guy designing and coding.
I don't want to make software, I want to make games. Games just happen to be software.
I seem to get a 50/50 response when I say this.
"You gotta know programming to get a job in game design."
"No you don't, you just need to be a creative leader"
I don't know, if you magically gave me a development studio, I think I could lead it into a powerful and successful title.

I just don't think that's how the world works right now.
[/quote]

Getting a game design job without being a celebrity or the owner of a company, without a prior game development background ( programmer, artist or possibly writer ) is akin to winning the lottery.


Sure it happens, but I wouldn't stake my future on it!

Getting a game design job without being a celebrity or the owner of a company, without a prior game development background ( programmer, artist or possibly writer ) is akin to winning the lottery.


Sure it happens, but I wouldn't stake my future on it!
[/quote]

That's the thing I don't "get". I live in South Florida, so I can't climb the QA chain to a higher position, I have to start Indie, which I like, a friend and I have even formed our own lil' studio, and working on a game now. (niceguygames.net). But in this team, I'm currently Co Writer/Designer/Director on the team. But that's it.

That doesn't work in a real studio, I get that.
Who knows, maybe Nice Guy Games will explode. xD. I feel like programming is my only way into the development world, and out of this hole that I'm in.

Getting a game design job without being a celebrity or the owner of a company, without a prior game development background ( programmer, artist or possibly writer ) is akin to winning the lottery.


Sure it happens, but I wouldn't stake my future on it!

That's the thing I don't "get". I live in South Florida, so I can't climb the QA chain to a higher position, I have to start Indie, which I like, a friend and I have even formed our own lil' studio, and working on a game now. (niceguygames.net). But in this team, I'm currently Co Writer/Designer/Director on the team. But that's it.

That doesn't work in a real studio, I get that.
Who knows, maybe Nice Guy Games will explode. xD. I feel like programming is my only way into the development world, and out of this hole that I'm in.
[/quote]

Sentence fragment; what don't you get?


That is a big side of the appeal to Indie games, you can be the producer, director, etc... Although even in Indie games, that person almost always wears many hats and brings other skills to the table. Look at any forums where someone posts "I want to make XXX game, who wants to help?" You will always see tons of replies along the lines of "I am willing to write!" or "I am willing to produce!" or "I am willing to design", while the number of people saying "I am willing to program" is literally 1/10th if not less and then artists are even more scarce.

[quote name='Confirm4Crit' timestamp='1318872860' post='4873545']

Getting a game design job without being a celebrity or the owner of a company, without a prior game development background ( programmer, artist or possibly writer ) is akin to winning the lottery.


Sure it happens, but I wouldn't stake my future on it!

That's the thing I don't "get". I live in South Florida, so I can't climb the QA chain to a higher position, I have to start Indie, which I like, a friend and I have even formed our own lil' studio, and working on a game now. (niceguygames.net). But in this team, I'm currently Co Writer/Designer/Director on the team. But that's it.

That doesn't work in a real studio, I get that.
Who knows, maybe Nice Guy Games will explode. xD. I feel like programming is my only way into the development world, and out of this hole that I'm in.
[/quote]

Sentence fragment; what don't you get?


That is a big side of the appeal to Indie games, you can be the producer, director, etc... Although even in Indie games, that person almost always wears many hats and brings other skills to the table. Look at any forums where someone posts "I want to make XXX game, who wants to help?" You will always see tons of replies along the lines of "I am willing to write!" or "I am willing to produce!" or "I am willing to design", while the number of people saying "I am willing to program" is literally 1/10th if not less and then artists are even more scarce.
[/quote]
I don't get how that design job is achieved though another profession. It's odd, and doesn't seem accidental.

And that is another thing that is alluring me to programming. I can write ideas to the cows come home, but someone will need a programmer.

I also do enjoy programming when I get stuck. When I'm tinkering, etc. But I don't know anywhere near enough for game, and I haven't learned anything that seems like it is heading anywhere towards the development of a game.
Learning to walk before I can run, I know. Just...I hope I'm walking the right way.

I wouldnt say its a matter of sticking with it until you like it; id say you have to find the low hanging fruit that motivates you to start tinkering right now, because in the long run it is the continued fascination with the subjects just beyond your grasp that will keep you interested, and if you cant find that path, then dont bother torturing yourself.

Find a simple problem to solve that is tedious to do by hand, and you suppose a computer can do much better. Getting the computer to do it for you will feel good, even if it would have taken 5 minutes to do it by hand, and programming it took you days.

I think you can safely forget about ever making a game without bringing any hard skills to the table. We all have our ideas, and we all tend to like our own best. Even if you have the ideas and charisma to make others follow your dreams instead of their own, it still wouldnt hurt to actually understand what it is the people you are leading are doing; you cant be a good architect without having some notion of what it is like to lay down a brick.

Have you thought about "pen and paper" game design? Making board games or pen and paper role playing games are great ways to build your design skills and your portfolio. Modding games is another way to get some programming experience without being overwhelmed by the hard-core programming aspects of making games. When I'm reviewing portfolios for new design hires, I expect to see some modding and scripting experience.

Have you thought about "pen and paper" game design? Making board games or pen and paper role playing games are great ways to build your design skills and your portfolio. Modding games is another way to get some programming experience without being overwhelmed by the hard-core programming aspects of making games. When I'm reviewing portfolios for new design hires, I expect to see some modding and scripting experience.

It's funny that you mention that, I've been thinking about turning a design idea of a game into a board game. xD

In general, if you can't see the next step from here to there then 'there' is too big of a goal. Take little steps and things work better.

Avoiding C++ so you can focus on the design instead of the gory details will help. Modding existing games or map making is probably the quickest and easiest way to take 'little' game design steps.

Another thing you might consider is looking into user experience or UI designer sort of stuff. That involves a lot of 'why do users like X/Y?' and a lot of the psychology will cross over, while providing you more opportunities for conventional work/education.

In general, if you can't see the next step from here to there then 'there' is too big of a goal. Take little steps and things work better.

Avoiding C++ so you can focus on the design instead of the gory details will help. Modding existing games or map making is probably the quickest and easiest way to take 'little' game design steps.

Another thing you might consider is looking into user experience or UI designer sort of stuff. That involves a lot of 'why do users like X/Y?' and a lot of the psychology will cross over, while providing you more opportunities for conventional work/education.

I've been diving into The Art of Game Design, Theory of Fun, and other books just for the knowledge. It's just odd that I can't really...execute it. Today I drew a mock Unit in MSPaint for the game my team is working on, artist pimped it out, programmer made it work.
All I did was think. I'm also in charge of balancing all the units, modes, pacing, etc. It's odd, 'cause I'm not actually doing it. My programmer, artist, and sound guys are making the game. I'm helping to create the framework.

[quote name='Serapth' timestamp='1318873226' post='4873547']
[quote name='Confirm4Crit' timestamp='1318872860' post='4873545']

Getting a game design job without being a celebrity or the owner of a company, without a prior game development background ( programmer, artist or possibly writer ) is akin to winning the lottery.


Sure it happens, but I wouldn't stake my future on it!

That's the thing I don't "get". I live in South Florida, so I can't climb the QA chain to a higher position, I have to start Indie, which I like, a friend and I have even formed our own lil' studio, and working on a game now. (niceguygames.net). But in this team, I'm currently Co Writer/Designer/Director on the team. But that's it.

That doesn't work in a real studio, I get that.
Who knows, maybe Nice Guy Games will explode. xD. I feel like programming is my only way into the development world, and out of this hole that I'm in.
[/quote]

Sentence fragment; what don't you get?


That is a big side of the appeal to Indie games, you can be the producer, director, etc... Although even in Indie games, that person almost always wears many hats and brings other skills to the table. Look at any forums where someone posts "I want to make XXX game, who wants to help?" You will always see tons of replies along the lines of "I am willing to write!" or "I am willing to produce!" or "I am willing to design", while the number of people saying "I am willing to program" is literally 1/10th if not less and then artists are even more scarce.
[/quote]
I don't get how that design job is achieved though another profession. It's odd, and doesn't seem accidental.

And that is another thing that is alluring me to programming. I can write ideas to the cows come home, but someone will need a programmer.

I also do enjoy programming when I get stuck. When I'm tinkering, etc. But I don't know anywhere near enough for game, and I haven't learned anything that seems like it is heading anywhere towards the development of a game.
Learning to walk before I can run, I know. Just...I hope I'm walking the right way.
[/quote]

To be honest I think my earlier advice to you is about perfect. Run through that tutorial, see if it makes sense ( it's not completely beginner level and assumes prior knowledge ). If you can finish it understanding what you are doing, you are really are ready to start into your own development projects. It's once "you own it" that you get a sense of accomplishment.

Remember, everyone starts off shitty at programming. It's a iterative learning curve process, I've been at it for a very long time and I still look back at prior work and laugh. But more than anything, you need to jump in and do something more than just tutorials. You also need to focus, so you don't just scratch the surface as you learn very little that way.